If your meta is agro oriented, you want jitte... it simply destroys opposing agro decks... It can also double as lifegain should you need it against zoo and sligh.Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Threads is good, but it is a little limited (does next to nothing against goblins, but is better against zoo)... I would personally use the jitte though because of the continuous use of its effects.
And here we are, back to the same old "Jitte: bad or good?" conversation. Ugh.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Let me pose a new question to you guys: why play Merfolk?
Merfolk used to be the CounterTop and Landstill killer, but these decks have adapted to the meta and have ways to tackle fast aggro, whether it is with alot of spot removal, Firespout, or Moat, the match-up has gone downhill for Merfolk. Yes, Merfolk can still go apeshit and completely broken, but Goblins can do that too, only just a bit better with Instigator. Merfolk's bad match-ups like Goblins and Zoo have improved with the white splash, but it's still tricky, and since its good match-ups have gone to 50-50 (and the Tempo Thresh match-up completely went down-hill with the dependancy on fetches), I wonder if there's a point to playing Merfolk?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
This.
The Metagame has adapted too much for Merfolk to still be a great choice.
Merfolk may not be stellar, but I feel like the shell is good. The idea of a vial/force/standstill deck sounds as if it can be solid. Landstill does well enough, and it seems like going with an aggro control version of that could work. Therefor, I'm starting to look at one-shot creatures that could fill the merfolk roll, as the main issue with this deck is our susceptibility to mass removal and lack of evasion.
Obviously, the first "must have" that comes to mind is vendillion clique. An efficient beater that gives you card quality advantage and has evasion. Be curious to hear if others are thinking about this route.
Merfolk are really sick with countertop, or you can keep the Vial/Force/Light Counter shell and run creatures like Efreet/Kira/Clique. I think the thread's title should be switched to something like U/Ux fish.
List? I think that Merfolk's list is already tight enough as is. I want to see where your thoughts are going with this.
Well one option is Slivers. Another is Faeries. While Faeries gets you some evasion I find it doubtful that overall creature quality is going to be better than with Merfolk. Slivers is probably in the same ballpark just with a worse manabase. You could also try something like a classic Bant creature base: Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, Rhox War Monk, Vendilion Clique, etc. (This has some of the same manabase issues as Slivers though.)
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I love Vendilion Clique, but it is absolutely not the card we want. Clique is good against all the decks Merfolk is already good against. And it sux against all the decks we are trying to improve against.Obviously, the first "must have" that comes to mind is vendillion clique. An efficient beater that gives you card quality advantage and has evasion. Be curious to hear if others are thinking about this route.
I happen to think that the White splash is really all we need to adopt. It does not require any drastic changes and accomplishes all our goals. What we really need is to find out exactly the list to use. I am going to post something in the OP while we work that out.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I find it very amusing how Merfolk was hailed as great long before it was, and is now being hailed as dead while it's still good.
Not splashing makes Merfolk get steamrolled by Zoo, and to a lesser degree Goblins. And very little else. Granted, you can't just flat out ignore Zoo's existence, but there aren't really that many other bad matchups.
Merfolk, right now, is an X-1 deck. And by this, I mean that in a medium-sized tournament with a semi-normal metagame, a skilled pilot with Merfolk is probably going to average X-1 (Possibly more like X-1.4, but still). It might go X-0 if they get lucky and dodge red. It might go X-2 or X-3 if it gets unlucky in pairings or loses mirrors. People are down on Merfolk at the moment because it loses to the format's best deck - Zoo.
Heavy Zoo makes people play things that beat Zoo. Merfolk beats or at least hangs with almost everything that beats Zoo. I'm aware this page is going to go on for centuries about how to make Merfolk beat Zoo, tauting the merits of white splashes, blasts, threads, and six thousand rogue cards to hate on Zoo, but the reality of it is that none of them work. You can't beat Zoo consistently without compromising some of Merfolk's biggest strengths.
Merfolk is a Blue aggro deck with solid card advantage, a unique disruption package that's almost entirely mana-free, and great strength against most of the format's disruption. It also packs tons of neat little evasion tricks to cover its weaknesses, ranging from Islandwalking to tapping down Blockers to making guys unblockable.
What Merfolk can't do is decimate threats. Blue has -never- been the best color to deal with opposing creatures. Live with it, or risk your manabase, splash white, and fix it.
Taco, I think you are right about a lot of things. But there is no denying that the format is edging towards aggro. Zoo is just at the front of that line. With that in mind, I think it would be wise for us to explore the white splash pretty heavily. For my part, I plan to have both lists posted.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Sup guys? I played in Jupiter Games’ Lotus Moxen Bazaar this past weekend and placed 21st out of approximately 172 entrants with Blue Boys Green Men and netted a 5-2-1 record.
Lands: 21
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Mutavault
4 Island
Creatures: 20
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
Spells: 19
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 AEther Vial
Sideboard
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
Round 1: Matt w/ Bloodghast Dredge
Game 1- After losing the roll and keeping my first 7 he plays some discard outlet and I go with standstill to slow him down and try to think of a plan with some Cursecatchers in play. I can’t find one, so after a full grave, a hoard, of braineaters and some Bloodghasts he overruns me.
-4 Standstill, -3 Stifle, -1 Daze, +3 Jitte, +2 Needle, +2 Crypts
Game 2- After mulling a slow hand I end up keeping the 6-er with some lands Cursecatcher and Crypt. I play Cursecatcher(sandbagging the Crypt in hand because I’m not worried about the FTK without LED and I want to bait out his grave filling stuff) and pass and he then goes land nomad tribe pass after he pitched two Bloodghasts. I draw some dude and play crypt pass and pop the crypt in response to his next land drop. I get in there for one a couple time and so does he until I get lords and commence a two turn lethal swing while sitting on counter magic in hand.
Game 3- After mulling to 5, I approve the hand of crypt, needle, Cursecatcher, and lands. He leads with nomad pass and my turn goes land and then a needle. He discards in response to needle and I promptly cast crypt and pop it. He casts two more nomads and sits there getting in for 3 damage total. He resolves a breakthrough a couple of turns later, but I drop another crypt from hand to hose his grave, while I have vial and lords and put round one away.
2-0
Round 2: Matt w/ UBr Bitterblossom Control
Game 1- He’s on the play with turn two jitte and I drop Catcher vial. He then goes onto smothering and terminating my dudes and sticks a bitterblossom. I proceed to draw the set of goyfs but he stabilizes at 2 life and I can’t get through the tokens and gets me in the air with a jitte wielding fae for the win.
-3 Stifle, -4 Standstill, +3 Grip, +1 Blasts, +3 Jitte
Game 2- We both keep out openers and he leads with a jitte and I follow suite. I then proceed to drop some goyfs and resolve another jitte and end this one quickly.
-1 Daze, +1 Blast
Game 3- Both hands are kept and I bring him down to ten while at 19, but time is called and I can’t get my modest army past the Bitterblossom tokens.
2-0-1
Round 3: Jamie w/ UWb Landstill w/Baneslayer a finisher
Game 1- I stick an early Catcher while he swords and paths lords. I resolve more lords and my fish islandwalk ftw.
-3 Stifle, -1 Daze, -1 Silvergill Adept, +3 Grip, +2 Needle
Game 2- He goes turn one top after his mull to 6 and my turn one I go vial. He abruptly resolves the needle for vial and passes. I needle his top get a dork out and he E.E.s for one hitting my brown jank and letting my fish go through. I get Reejereys on him and end up resolving a goyf. By this point he’s at 6 and resolves Baneslayer, which I can’t attack into for lethal due to the new lifelink ruling, but I top deck a Catcher and Reejerey then taps his angel for the victorious alpha strike.
3-0-1
Round 4: Arun running Monoblack Rats
Game 1- Our first seven are good and I lead with early fish beats that get stopped by a resolved street wraith. He connects for a few and gets to gnawing some of my hand(pun intended) with therapies, but I overrun with lords and counter his supporting threats.
-3 Stifle, +3 Jitte,
Game 2- He goes to six cards and gets some rats on board. He manages a crypt rats with swarmyard in play, but I draw the timely wasteland to end those shenanigans. I get more dudes and lords in play and swing for lethal.
Round 5: Ben w/ UW Landstill
Game 1- We both prefer to go to six and I lead with an early vial and Catcher to beat fast and follow them up with the lords to walk past his manlands, and keeping in mind to hold force for some desperate sweeping he wanted to resolve.
-3 Stifle, -1 Daze, -1 Adept, +3 K Grips, +2 Needle
Game 2- After forcing his turn one EE for 1, I drop two early Catchers and draw cards with standstill and drop lords and sculpt a hand ready to combat the sweeper he never drew.
4-0-1
Round 6: Glen w/ Brg Canadian Thresh
Game 1- He is on the play and resolves and early goose that makes short work of me while none of my threats resolve or see my next untap step.
-4 Standstill, -1 Daze, -3 Stifle, +3 Blasts, +3 Jitte, +2 Blasts
Game 2- We like six to start with and I drop an early catcher and drop him to 11 and then more lords follow suite and islandwalk, while I reside at a comfortable 17.
Game 3- we both resolve a one drop dude, but a goyf joins his party earlier than mine can and he beats down on my measly troops.
4-1-1
Round 7: David(Freakish777) w/ Ugr Canadian Thresh
Game 1- I get a vial in play early and stick with the merfolk tempo plan and islandwalk to the finish.
-4 Standstill, +2 Blasts, +Kira
Game 2- He stomps with an early goose and mana denial plan.
-1 Daze, +1 Blast
Game 3- I go to six and get a one drop guppy and goyf on board. He mimics my board, but with goyf +1 on his party. He proceeds to swing and burn, while I draw useless lands.
4-2-1
Round 8: ?????
Opponent didn’t show and don’t know his name or deck choice, but I’ll post that information for you guys if I ever find out.
Side Event for 2 Mana Drain
Round 1: Belcher
Game 1- On the play, he passes with taiga out, but the turn one Catcher gets there with the help of lords despite the turn 3 ETW for 8.
-2 , +2 Blasts
Game 2- Turn 1 Catcher followed by 2 more Catchers beat face, while a hand of triple daze and a Force seals the deal. His board of Xantid Swarm is used for a futile block after as he can't amass a storm count in the first two turns as more Catchers' pile on thier own dazing power through the trigger.
Round 2: Zoo
Game 1- Most unfavorable matchup all day and get stomped by goyfs and burn a handful of turns after an early dazed cat.
-4 Catchers, -4 Standstill, +3 Blasts, +3 Jitte, +2 Kira
Game 2- I keep a hand of lands double force goyf and jitte. Goyf stays a 2/3 for too long and gets the removed and I get burned out and stomped by two cats and an ape.
I didn’t get any prizes from the tourney, but some ratings points and good times were had with the rest of Team Unicorn. Cursecatcher is a beast and Trickster would have been a joke in all of my matches. Worst card of the day is the stifle slot. I would have much preferred a snare to fend of actual spells, goyfs, and pesky E.E.s all day(honestly, who cares about the turn 5 fetch??). Kira never got to see the battlefield as she was usually the blue card forced away, and I would cut a land to make room for that fourth snare. I still never want to face zoo with this deck and the aforementioned thresh matches might have been winnable if I made more aggressive mulligan decisions, but who’s to say. I don’t see myself playing this deck again unless an unfortunate situation may happen to arise again. Props go out Paul Longo for having a deck on hand when mine was lost in storage, the gentlemen who gave me some sideboarding advice and vital play tips for Ug merfolk, and to Team Unicorn for getting me the last minute cards to not make it monoblue.
Keep up the friendly legacy tournament scene and all around best Mecca for legacy on the east coast, Eli!
Last edited by snorlaxcom; 11-19-2009 at 08:56 AM.
"And it sux [sic] against all the decks we are trying to improve against?"
Yeah! 50.001% matches across the board, except a few 10% matchups... yeah! >50% OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL 50% RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR!!!!!!KEKEKEKEKEKE
Clique is a terrible card obviously but it's never justification to be like: it helps a good matchup only. Therefore it's bad. +1-2% overall win % is just that, it is the relevant statistic, and is independent of how this win % is composed. In fact, it's actually, if anything, better to have all your wins concentrated in a few decks, since this will increase the variance of your performance in tournaments where you'll generally be interested in being top 8... or not. Nobody cares about 9th.
Both. I just can't see CounterTopFolk. Are you basically rolling 20 dudes, CB, Top, FoW, Daze, CardX?
While you may be right, you have no point here. A good player can do well, and may do better if he's lucky. Gee, I never realized that.
That's not the real problem. The real problem is that decks like CounterTop and Landstill used to be a bye for Merfolk. Now they're more like 50-50.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I'm trying to work it with 2-3 Trinket Mage, 4 LoA, 4 Reejerey, 3-4 Lullmage Mentor, and maybe a Nought.
I was testing it with Vial at first, I might switch out the Mage and Nought slot (and the accompanying Mage toolbox; Pithing Needle, EE) which would leave 9-10 slots open for extra Counterspells and either more lords or Cursecatcher or Wake Thrasher.
With CTop up, the only method Zoo has of killing anything preboard in this MU is Helix, which can be Spell Snared.
Has anyone suggested Mother of Runes in the white splash variants yet? It seems that her one cast and mana free protection should offer ample defense against red burn and early aggro, in exchange for being a non merfolk.
I've thought about it, yes. The issue is your mana curve primarily, and the fact that she's not a merfolk. Ideally, this deck wants somewhere between 8 and 12 1cc cards that are playable on first turn. With cursecatcher and vial, that give you 8 straight up. Then add in potentially stifle and that slot starts to get a bit full. Granted, stifle is a situational turn 1 play, but still.
I think I could see going some split with 6 cursecatcher/mother however, probably either 4/2 or 3/3. But once again, merfolk thinning!
Well, there is this.
...and this...As the likelihood of facing a popular deck shifts, this deck should be adjusted to meet these changes. That is the topic at hand. Your point would have some purpose if Zoo and its ilk were not gaining ground at the expense of decks Merfolk has been strongest against to the point that it commonly knocks you out of contention. Kindly educate yourself on this rudimentary concept and then feel free to critique my ideas in whatever bombastic fashion you choose.Yeah! 50.001% matches across the board, except a few 10% matchups... yeah! >50% OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL 50% RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR!!!!!!KEKEKEKEKEKE
Clique is a terrible card obviously but it's never justification to be like: it helps a good matchup only. Therefore it's bad. +1-2% overall win % is just that, it is the relevant statistic, and is independent of how this win % is composed. In fact, it's actually, if anything, better to have all your wins concentrated in a few decks, since this will increase the variance of your performance in tournaments where you'll generally be interested in being top 8... or not. Nobody cares about 9th.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
On what planet? I don't find either of these matchups particularly difficult. What changed?
Granted, both of these depend drastically on the opponent's build, but still.
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