There is another thread for this deck out there somewhere (maybe another site). Anyhow they are using Vesuva x 4 to copy either Valakut or Mountain.
Some card you may wish to consider (depending on build);
Lightning Bolt
Crop Rotation
Countryside Crusher? with Loam build and flashback cards
Conflagrate (RR for 5-7? counter productive with Manabond)
Deep Recon
Firebolt
Krosan Reclamation
Lava Dart
Lightning Surge
Volley of Boulders
Ancient Grudge (sideboard)
I know alot of those cards are downright awful but as 1-offs in a dredge style deck, they could push through the last few points of damage from the graveyard.
Vesuva is definitely a nice catch, especially in a build with rishadan ports.
There is also Flame Jab and Barbarian Ring as alternate win conditions (and spot removals).
I already tried a slower build with a much more Eternal Garden like shell, but that really was waaaaay to slow. I think your better off just playing Eternal Garden if you put it into a shell like that. Most of the times you have control by the time you can go for the combo.
So, instead of going that route, I'm going to try a 43 Land-ish build. My main concern is that I only run 35 lands... I'd really like to up it, but since I'm basically playing combo, I just have to have some tutoring and backup acceleration in there. Here is the list I'm going to test (untested at this moment, purely theory):
Spells:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
3 Manabond
3 Scapeshift
3 Intuition
3 Gamble
3 Life From the Loam
Creatures:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede
Lands:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Valakut, the Molten Spire
2 Vesuva
4 Taiga
4 Stomping Ground
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
Some explanations on card choices:
4 Mox Diamond
As I said, these are basically backup acceleration (in case I cannot land a Manabond or Exploration early on). An added benefit of this one is that it enables more color support and makes you able to 'dodge' some lands (like cycle-lands) into the graveyard when you activate an early Manabond.
4 Exploration
Since Fastbond is banned, you need a way to quickly get 8 or more land into play. One green, one extra land each turn, simple yet effective.
3 Manabond
You love to see one of these into your oppening hand. So why not play 4? Well, basically, while Exploration makes a good draw later on, this one really really really sucks then. So if you get one in the opening 7, great, if not, fetch one with Gamble and drop it turn 2.
1 Eternal Witness
The deck has a lot of ways of getting cards into the graveyard, cards you sometimes will need (like Scapeshift). Eternal Witness grabs you any card that went away and you can recur the Witness with a Volrath's Stronghold.
1 Gigapede
Well, sometimes a deck just doesn't work the way it was intended to. I always like having a backup plan, and the man-plan with a Gigapede and some Factories looks like it would work nicely.
3 Scapeshift
The insta-kill card that speeds up the deck and sets it aside from regular 43 Land decks. It gives the deck a kaBOOM finish. Always nice to have, not necessary, since you can also win with Valakut and dropping lands into play the regular way.
Intuition
As you look at the decklist, you see a lot of key cards as 3-offs. This is the reason why. Most of the times you should be able to play this one turn 1 or 2 and get the missing ingredient. Later in the game, Intuition can fetch any 3 lands you might need and Life from the Loam can fetch the discarded ones right back.
Gamble
Some cards you really want to have early on. Manabond, Exploration and Life from the Loam all qualify in this category. Gamble gives you extra shots at the missing links you need. Later on, Gamble can find any land you need at that moment and Loam gets it back from your graveyard when the bet goes wrong.
Life from the Loam
I think everything has already been said about LftL. This deck wants Loam online asap. Intuition and Gamble function as LftL 4-9.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Boseiju guarantees that your combo goes through. Period. It can easily be fetched with any of our searchers.
Valakut, the Molten Spire
2 Valakut makes the combo go BOOM big time.
Vesuva
2 Vesuva are your utility lands. They can become any other land you need. Need an extra Maze of Ith, check. Need that extra Mountain, check. Extra Valakut, ok. Only 2 played because of the 'come into play tapped'.
Taiga
R and G mana source, counts as a Mountain, auto-4 include.
Stomping Ground
See Taiga.
Volcanic Island
R and U mana source, counts as a Mountain. Intiutions best friend.
Badlands
R and B mana source, counts as a Mountain and great with Volrath's Stronghold.
Mishra's Factory
The backup man-plan. Together with Gigapede.
Maze of Ith
Against any creature (except the big Progenitus), this is your first line of defense.
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Another addition to your creature defenses. Works wonders to slow down the development of creatures on the other side of the board.
Rishadan Port
Mana denial, a good plan against any deck.
Wasteland
Did we say mana denial? Great for the random Wastelock wins.
Volrath's Stronghold
Only one critter to recur, but a great one. This is a permanent Regrowth with Eternal Witness.
Tranquil Thicket/Forgotten Cave
Card draw that really really really like LftL.
Now the final questions:
1) Why would I play this over traditional 43 Lands?
It has about the same anti-creature power 43 Lands has, but has a much faster clock in the combo-finish
2) Why would I play this over Secret Garden decks?
I just don't like decks that take 50 minutes to accomplish a 1-0 victory, this one has a much faster clock.
3) Why would I play this deck over a faster combo deck (like ANT)?
I have no clue. I just want to try this one out for the coolness factor. ANT is the superior combo deck, no doubt about it, but this one fights better through combo hate. I admit, it has the problem all land decks have: roll over to the combo deck, that match is unwinnable pre-board and very hard post-board.
There you have it, this is what I'm going to try. Smart suggestions, comments and others are always appreciated.
PS: sorry for the long post.
Yesterday I tried such a deck and finally I disliked Scapeshi(f)t a lot. Finally I kept only 1 copy in the SB for the combo finish. I did not like mox diamond neither since the deck needs at least 7 lands on the table to win. I did not even try manabond because I'm quite 100% sure you never want to discard your hand. I would play burgeoning before manabond (or maybe Summer Bloom). And I think that's what I'm going to do, because hands without exploration were way too slow.
Spells: (17)
2x Life From the Loam
4x Exploration
4x Burning Wish
4x Entomb
3x Burgeoning
Creatures: (6)
3x Azusa
3x Oracle of Mul Daya
Utility Lands: (23)
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Maze of Ith
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chiasm
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4x Vesuva
4x cyclers (3 red, 1 green)
Mountains (14)
4x Taiga
1x Stomping Ground
1x Forest
2x Badlands
6x Mountain Fetch
Sideboard:
1x Scapeshift
2x Life from the Loam
Usual Stuff
The problem with Burgeoning is that the game plan against aggro is to recur Glacial Chasm while you destroy its mana base and that Burgeoning is bad at that. Azusa is just like Summer Bloom but that you can repeat if the opponent don't deal with it.
Too bad Hermit Druid is banned in Legacy.
I'm working on a build that will include a critical mass of:
Accel->
Exploration
Manabond
Burgeoning
Search->
Gamble
Crop Rotation
Fetches
Living Wish
Engines->
Life from the Loam
Genesis->Eternal Whitness
Recoup->Regrowth
Kill->
Lightning Bolt
Countryside Crusher
Valakut/Vesuva
Barbarian Ring
Volley of Boulders
Utility/Side->
Spore Frog/Spike Weaver (O-rly??)
Shattering Spree
Krosan Grip
Ancient Grudge
Maze
Tabernacle
Wasteland
Ghostquarter
Chalice
EE
We need to consider how to stop fast combo pre SB. Not sure this is possible.
Sorcery: 16
4 Gamble
4 Mulch
4 Life from the Loam
2 Recoup
2 Scapeshift
Enchantments: 8
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
Lands: 38
4 Taiga
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Wasteland
4 Stomping Ground
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forgotten Cave
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Blood Crypt
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Forest
Sideboard: 15
3 Pulverize
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sadistic Sacrament
This is my list. I need to cut 2 cards and I don't know what to cut. Maybe I only need one Scapeshift as I can Gamble into it. I know I probably shouldn't try, but I added black for Sadistic Sacrament from the board. If you can cast it against ANT before they go off, you win. They don't play counter magic and they never have more than 3 win conditions.
Instead of Recouping the Scapeshift, you could Recoup a Burning Wish, Wish for the Scapeshift, and cast it next turn. This saves slots. This is in general, not a comment on any specific build.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I like this list alot. I lost to an Extended version on MWS playing a Legacy deck =p. What exactly are the Entomb targets? I'm thinking of picking this up and want to make sure I'm playing it correctly.Originally Posted by Maveric78f
EDIT: Maveric have considered Nether Void? I see that you're already running black and the enchantment shouldn't slow you down as much as it would effect your opponent. I'd maybe consider running it as a 2'of, what do you think?
Do you run Entomb solely for LftL and key lands?
Last edited by Kangaxx; 11-17-2009 at 02:16 PM.
Have you tried Mulch or Crucible in the deck? Crucilock seems harsh when you can do it 4 times a turn.
An alternative to Mulch is Clear the Land, which puts the land directly onto the field instead of in your hand. This is relevant with Valakut.
EDIT: Just thought about the insanity that is Storm Cauldron. Double mana and bouncelandsmountains? Seems like a aplan to me.
I found crucible to be pretty nice.
And oracle of mul daya is nuts in this deck, if you can play lands from the top of your deck it is like you deck is the extension of your hand at that point. The problem is that it has 0 evasion. Only the casting cost is ok for against countertop decks.
The other problem is that it will just roll over dead against any combo deck. You would have to waste spots to CotV, cannonist, teeq, thoughsieze or any other anti combo deck. It would need a card that allows us to put X cards from target players library into its grave since this would benefit this deck as well. Unfortuantly that would be even more dead against ichorid.. And this prolly mana intensive. I do not know any lands that could help stopping combo from going off. Especially Ant.
Only option would be bounce cards that we can also use that bounce our lands (mountains for valakut e.g.)
I think that this deck first needs its protection sorted that could be used to boost itself.
Has anyone looked at playing Ad Nauseam instead of Scapeshift? With a Manabond on the board, you only need 5 mana to go off and kill with Valakuts at the EOT step, and if you keep an extra mana open, you can draw into the Manabond. Six mana is still less than 5.
EDIT: And you can play Conflagrate as an alternate win condition, I guess.
I did some checking into this but it does not seem viable. Either it comes out to slow gathering the needed mana or it comes out to slow missing ad nauseam (and with the boshinji land if you need it). Also you do need to keep your mana open if you add in mox diamond. just cast a mox diamond removing maze of ith or something and cast manabond which you should have drawn by then. Tried adding some mana acceleration such dark ritual but that was most of the time a dead card. Nor did it improve the combo matchup in anyway.. Maybe someone who is interested could look into this with Burning Wish and see if that works with 3 ad nauseam main and 1 side. Other then having boshinjo land we have 0 protection still. Tried adding in Orim's chant which also was dead most of the time..
Scapeshift is slower with regards to mana, since you need 7 lands to kill with it. You run no protection for Scapeshift either, and both are one-card investments. Honestly, it seems superior in every way to Scapeshift, other than the BB mana cost. You can still run a Scapeshift in the wishboard for another kill condition.
That is true but the mana base gets more diluted. Atleast I managed once to go off on turn 3 with dark ritual -> ad nauseam -> mox diamond for mana bond. Also this is still not working that well since we have to last at least till turn 2~3 with dark ritual (best mana accelration I can think off atm for this) and 3~4 w/o dark ritual with 1~2 mox diamonds before we can go off. it has 0 protection against combo to last that long.
I guess best possible situation is turn 1 taiga, exploration, boseiju, mox diamond, and then turn 2 badlands, dark ritual, ad nauseam, draw enough mountains + atleast 1 valakut + 1 mox diamond if the land you played earlier does not give green, cast manabond and kill at eot. Assuming all this if you go for the kill asap.
Otherwise you spend turns getting ready to go nuts and keeping aggro/control off bay but this still does not improve the combo matchup. Only thing I can think off is getting answers trough burning wish ><
I do think ad nauseam can be better then scapeshift but then you also go out of the green shell and have to splash black. Double BB is also not that friendly but doable. Having GRB also prevents you from running normal swamps/forests due to most of the mana must be a mountain making you more vulnerable to blood moon effects and land destruction.
Isn't the obvious problem with Ad Nauseam and the rest of these that you have to discard them to Manabond? (That, and adding ways to tutor for it also gets awkward.) Scapeshift 'works' because you can Recoup it.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I'm glad you updated this thread. Now I play U splash instead of B for intuition instead of Entomb. I laso added 1 Worm Harvest MD instead of something I can't remember.
No and No. Manabond says you may discard. If you run for combo with Ad Nauseam you play manabond after you got it with Ad Nauseam, playing it earlier means it has a higher chance of getting removed. You can play scapeshift but not recoup it because all of the lands that you search with scapeshift enters play tapped. So you cannot get mana out of it to play recoup and if you have enough mana to do that I doubt you have enough mana to replay Scapeshift. That is in total 10 mana needed (2x scapeshit and 1x recoup) prior to that. Even when you have that much mana available you should kill your opponent with just 1 scapeshift (sacrefice 8 lands, search 2x valakut and 6x mountain to deal 36 damage), it is only a kill more move which is useless. At that you either lost or you very close to winning which means 1 or 2 mountains would be enough to finish off your opponent.
I much rather play Ad Nauseam that way to finish it in 1 go instead.
Um. I didn't mean have to like the card mandates it -- even in that case you could just not cast the Manabond. I mean that when you have a hand, like, say, Manabond, Ad Nauseam, and five lands, you can't use the Manabond to accelerate Ad Nauseam. Which is very awkward. You have to either discard the Ad Nauseam, or play lands out one by one. And the latter isn't a realistic option, therefore you discard the Ad Nauseam. That's the sense in which I used "have to".
Ad Nauseam could work in an Eternal Garden kind of shell (with just one or two Manabond so you can cast it following AN), but for a 43lands shell Manabond is integral, so I don't really see it.
And here I obviously meant that even after you discard Scapeshift to Manabond or dredge it with Loam, you can flashback a Recoup (which got into your graveyard in a similar way) to cast it. I'm not sure what could've lead you to that other interpretation. Manabond and Scapeshift/Recoup work together, unlike Manabond and Ad Nauseam, which work against each other. (Again, at the point before you cast the AN. Afterwards obviously Manabond is very good.)You can play scapeshift but not recoup it because all of the lands that you search with scapeshift enters play tapped. So you cannot get mana out of it to play recoup and if you have enough mana to do that I doubt you have enough mana to replay Scapeshift.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
What are you going to do about the bad matchups for this deck? AnT and Dredge seem terrible. I have 4 Zuran Orb and some Chalice of the Voids for AnT and 4 Tormod's Crypt and some Relic of Progenitus for dredge. Are there other matches we worry about?
Dredge should be easy. Play crop rotation if you want to be sure to win. Against ant just play chalices and trini and mana denial as much as you can.
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