[DTW] Bant Survival

[arebennian]

And getting Survival down, and then fetching Akroma, and then getting Retainers and playing it is easier? That's like 1GGG2W. Good luck.

I still fail to see how a 4 turn clock coming down on turn 4 is fast.

I think he was arguing from the position that Survival was already in play, in which case 5 mana to win the game (or steal it) isn't impossible (2GGW) whereas searching for 2 lifegaining Monks(GGGGWWUU) or GoyfWall(2GGGG) looks pretty difficult; particularly when playing around Wasteland and Port.

Turn 7 with your opponent at 12 and you with a Goyf in play that can't attack because you are on the defense turns into a turn two clock and a difficult wall for your opponent to negate.

I'm not advocating playing it, I'm just noting the senarios that are possible (not probable, possible) for which the inclusion of 2 slots may or may not be worth it. To some degree I'm just playing the Devil's advoate.

[Waikiki]

Oh come on. English is only your second language! Shame on you for not being able to decipher my statement!

I get your point and I agree (as I already noted). Still, for the sake of it.....


EXAMPLE
Goblins have 3 cards in hand with 4 mana in play.
You have Survival in play.
Empty 'Battlefield'


YOUR TURN
You are on 6 life. You untap, search for a Monk and play it. GGWU spent.

GOBLINS
Untap, Warchief, Driver, Driver.


Their haste doesn't give you as much time to search for answers. You only get 1 turn to put down prospective blockers, not two.
Granted that is a senario that is highly in the Goblins favour but you get the idea.

In this example I would be dead thnx to pro blue. Anyways so we agree survival sux vs goblins. What are we discussing then?

[uprite]

@ Jak it is not realy a four turn clock, even without a heiarch, people fetch lands in legacy so their life might be at 18 and in three turns they are dead. With a heiarch it's 3 turns after akroma is out even with their life at 20 and, with a heiarch in play and a creature in your hand its 2 turns since you can fetch for rafiq, but its pointless to state possible scenarios since there can be endless possibilities.

I just think its useful in situations where you have the option of ending the game quickly against decks that are able to do to surprise you (zoo goblins). It is just my personal opinion and experience with the two cards. Goyfs and RWMs are great but they tap and you can't really attack but hey everyone's playing style is different, some people like to use only cards that are useful and earn their keep and others like to have options.

I was just sharing how I like to those two cards since I saw it on moby's list but I guess you can't share your opinion without getting attacked on this forum. As well I never mentioned playing everything in one turn either but w.e I guess I was not clear enough.

[toni_a_salmi]

Hi folks, im havent post to this thread before but now when youre talking about bant survival vs goblins I have to say few things. I played today over 15 games agains goblins and I really won only 2 of them. My deck was almost same than Waikiki's on first page with spell snares in md. This deck vs Goblins is pretty horrible. Your deck is just too slow. After sideboarding match was still horrible. I sideboarded in 2 paths, genesis, loxodon and spore fog but I never really get foglock and even you got second turn SotF you really have to hurry cause goblin are so fast. I think the best card could WoG in sideboard so you can sweep whole army of goblins.

Someone asked about Sprites...well I like that card and it nicely counters
1cc spell or sometimes maybe 2cc but how often you really have that 2 mana open? Is there any better cards to these slots? Have you any thoughts about daze in md. I think it could be good card. Surely it is nice card agains combo decks and if you have some counterwar but someone said this decks playing stradegy is little diffirent or something...Have you thought about that this deck could be better if you make build to more aggro than just thinking good cards atound of SotF? If you play first turn noble with fetch and second turn goofie or monk...I think daze in hand for backup is nice isnt it?
When you have a LotF on table, use it and play some thread daze shines again. I havent play this deck so long but when you play aggro style versus control with sprites and snares in your hand..you wont win so surely. If 30% of your deck is creatures I think the free counters are those cards you really hope having in your hand when you wanna play thread.

[Waikiki]

In my sb I actually side out survivals, wonder and squee and I side in 3 path to exile, 1 rhox war monk and 2 jitte. I haven't found the matchup to be that bad. Just play the aggro roll. Cause lategame they will overpower you with beaters.

[majikal]

Hi folks, im havent post to this thread before but now when youre talking about bant survival vs goblins I have to say few things. I played today over 15 games agains goblins and I really won only 2 of them. My deck was almost same than Waikiki's on first page with spell snares in md. This deck vs Goblins is pretty horrible. Your deck is just too slow. After sideboarding match was still horrible. I sideboarded in 2 paths, genesis, loxodon and spore fog but I never really get foglock and even you got second turn SotF you really have to hurry cause goblin are so fast. I think the best card could WoG in sideboard so you can sweep whole army of goblins.

Someone asked about Sprites...well I like that card and it nicely counters
1cc spell or sometimes maybe 2cc but how often you really have that 2 mana open? Is there any better cards to these slots? Have you any thoughts about daze in md. I think it could be good card. Surely it is nice card agains combo decks and if you have some counterwar but someone said this decks playing stradegy is little diffirent or something...Have you thought about that this deck could be better if you make build to more aggro than just thinking good cards atound of SotF? If you play first turn noble with fetch and second turn goofie or monk...I think daze in hand for backup is nice isnt it?
When you have a LotF on table, use it and play some thread daze shines again. I havent play this deck so long but when you play aggro style versus control with sprites and snares in your hand..you wont win so surely. If 30% of your deck is creatures I think the free counters are those cards you really hope having in your hand when you wanna play thread.

1) The list you're playing is outdated.

2) You're not sideboarding properly. Goblins are too fast for Survival to be good against them. You need to side it out for more threats and answers.

[arebennian]

In this example I would be dead thnx to pro blue. Anyways so we agree survival sux vs goblins. What are we discussing then?

Also the loyal retainer situation vs gobbo's. Man if goblins gave you the time to land survival and start tutoring. Why doesn't goyf into goyf into monk into monk etc not allready win the game there. I mostly side out survival because its too slow against such aggro decks.

It might be inane to point this out but this was the original message I was responding to. You noted:

'Why doesn't goyf into goyf into monk into monk etc not allready win the game there.'

And I noted that it might not 'win the game there' because of the goblins ability to explode (thanks to Haste) and Bant Survival's inability to put down enough blockers quickly enough (which is the reason I imagine you side it out in the first place).
In my original message I made note that I realised you sided Survival out, but still made the point to emphasise just searching for creatures and putting them out may not be as effective as the plan uprite put forward.

[Waikiki]

Sure goblins can explode and you just lose. But my point is that you'll win when giving them so much pressure with point removal and the additional beaters that they will be force in blocking.

Can we drop this now?

[Windux]

I played 2 tournaments this weekend with the following list:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Savannah
1 [GUR] Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [GUR] Plains
2 [GUR] Forest

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CNF] Path to Exile

Non-Usual Slots:
Iona + Retainer: I liked the combo at the tournaments. Even if I didn't used it that often, it won me 3-4 games I wouldn't have won otherwise.
The two slots it takes doesn't bother me much.
I cutted the Quirion Ranger and Survival for it, since AggroLoam isn't played that much anymore in my area.
Ranger isn't needed since you can just tutor u your combo instead.
1 Top, 2 Ponder: I wanted to play more Tops, but that would just be bad. The blue-count is very low in my build. 1 Top seemed to be good, since the blue-count is still ok. Ponder is very useful, but in the lategame Top is just better. With the 1-off Top it is very rare to draw it early.
3 Survival: With Top, Ponder and Brainstorm you usually find the survival. Also, with Iona it isn't that hard, if your opponent destroys it. Against decks that board Grips against us, you can just drop it and survival twice for the combo and win anyway or just search 2 Goyfs etc.

Genesis wasn't needed in any game. I didn't play against Heavy-Control decks.
Spell Pierce instead was a monster-house.
It won me games against combo and Enchantress.

Here is how I played with the deck (Iserlohn Saturday, 82 players + Top8 Playouts - Prices 1st 10 limited Duals, 2nd 8 U-Duals WB, 3rd 4 limited DUals, 16th 2 Duals)
Round 1: Smallpox/Loam
0-2
Sinkhole, Smallpox, Wasteland+Loam, Vindicate, Innocent Blood is just a disaster ;)

Round 2: Bye
Round 3-7: Win (Enchantress, Surviving Bant (Path rocked this game for me),
So 6-1 for me, giving me the first place after swiss.

Top8:
Top4: Smalpox (See Round 1, just another person with 2-3 other cards)
Play for 3rd: Canadian Thresh 2-0 without any problems.

Day 2 (just 38 players because of Dutch legacy Champs at the same time):
Round 1: Sligh/Burn 2-0 thanks to RWM
Round 2: Loam/wb 2-0 Game 1 thanks to Iona on green (against his Maelstrom pulse), Game 2 thanks to 7 Sowrd-effects gainst his 8 Creatures, leaving his lonely Witness against me (me 11 Life, he 5 Librarycards) :D
Round 3: ANT Game 1 I beat him, Game 2 he just makes a badplay (Burning Wish on Tendrils for 22, with me having turn 2 Rhox online at beating him twice), instead of Wish on Tutor on Tutor on Tendrils.
he loses in his upkeep, since he pacted his pact, which pacted Cabal Ritual to give him Threshold ;)
Round 4: Surviving Bant (same plyers as day1): 2-1 Close games, but he didn't had Path in his sideboard, but me having 2 drawn, making his Jitte useless :D
Round 5: ANT - Game 1 Hierarch, Hierarch, 2 Goyf race him
Game 2 - He duress me round 2 and I show him a hand full of Spell pierce, Spell Snare, Force,Goyf, Goyf, Teeg and another spell. He takes force and I draw the 2nd land from the Ponder I played before. Win ;)
Round 6: Merfolk (mono-U) ID but played it 2-1 thanks to 4 Swords and 3 Path ;)
6-0-1 at all for the first.

[Waikiki]

you list is pretty similar to mine. I like your board.
How did you board with matches you needed spell snare for, what went out?

Situtions Iona won you the game survival normally wouldn't not. Could you describe the situation please.

[Windux]

you list is pretty similar to mine. I like your board.
How did you board with matches you needed spell snare for, what went out?

Situtions Iona won you the game survival normally wouldn't not. Could you describe the situation please.

Enchantress Preboard you just have 2 Pridemage and counter against Replenish, O.Ring, Sterling Grove, Confinement etc.

LoamControl usually wins too, ANT Preboard is very hard and a resolved Iona is better/faster than a Tarmogoyf

Etc.

[sco0ter]

Congrats on your finish!
A few questions:

Spell Pierce instead was a monster-house.

How did Spell Snare played out? Wouldn't it had been better, if you cut a Spell Snare instead of a Survival?
Last time I played them, I played 2 and even 2 were too much for my taste.

Is Spell Pierce worth MD slots (instead of Snare) then?

Your blue count is 21. Do seriously worry, it is too low? I'd still play FoW with only 17.

[Windux]

Congrats on your finish!
A few questions:



How did Spell Snare played out? Wouldn't it had been better, if you cut a Spell Snare instead of a Survival?
Last time I played them, I played 2 and even 2 were too much for my taste.

Is Spell Pierce worth MD slots (instead of Snare) then?

Your blue count is 21. Do seriously worry, it is too low? I'd still play FoW with only 17.

If you consider, that Rafiq, Wonder and Trygon are no Pitchcards (because you often need them), you have 18 - the one Force you play.

Spell Snare is very useful. I cutted 1 Survival because I just need 3 and not he full playset. For me there is no disscusion why to play the Survival nr.4 (that's just my opinion).

But Spell pierce instead is just too situational. I boarded it in against some decks and often boarded out 1-2 Spell Snares for it, but to put counter into the MD, which simply doesn't counter creatures seems bad.

[Kuma]

I've been playing this for a couple of weeks, and I think I have the experience to make intelligent commentary on the deck.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [A] Savannah
2 [ZEN] Forest (3)
1 [ZEN] Island (3)
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 1 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman

• 18 lands isn't enough. The deck can function on 18 lands, but it runs much better with 20. When I ran 18, I almost always wanted more mana. With 20, I occasionally have too much mana, but that's much better than too little. Mulligans also dramatically decreased.
• Spellstutter Sprite is awful unless you're playing against Zoo, Burn, Combo, Dreadstill, or any other deck with a very low mana curve. It's too hard to keep mana open for Sprite when there are so many other things the deck wants to do with its mana. I lost count of how many times I sat there with a Sprite in hand while my opponent cast spells that cost two or three mana. It's hard to get enough mana to cast a creature and have the mana open to protect it with Sprites. Without Survival to get multiple copies, Sprite is easily the worst card in the deck. If my metagame wasn't full of Zoo, Burn, and Combo right now, I'd run only one in the 75.
• The Sower of Temptation in my board hasn't been great for me, but that could be because of my metagame. I haven't really gotten the chance to test the Silent Arbiter either. Glen Elendra Archmage has been fantastic against board control, and could be relevant in the combo matchup. I haven't had the chance to test Loaming Shaman against Dredge and Loam yet, but it should be solid.

[Windux]

Loaming Shaman: I like the card, but what about running 2 Faerie Maccabre/1Genesis,1 Maccabre (both costs 2G to "Cast").
I do play 1 MAccabre and planning to play 2-3 in the board (over Crypt).

Glen Archmage against combo: He/She costs 4 to cast plus U to counter the first spell. I would play a Meddling Mage or Cannonist instead to have 4 solid creatures against combo in the cc2 slot (along with Gaddock Teeg).

Against which deck is the Silent Arbiter?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I'm testing this deck for the first time and i'm liking it so far.

[*]18 lands isn't enough. The deck can function on 18 lands, but it runs much better with 20. When I ran 18, I almost always wanted more mana. With 20, I occasionally have too much mana, but that's much better than too little. Mulligans also dramatically decreased.

I think this is the reason why Horizon Canopy has been included in most Zoo manabases. I remember a post by one of the Hatfields explaining that Canopy lets you increase the land count while reducing the risk of mana flooding. I'm currently testing 20 lands with 2 Horizon Canopy instead of one Savannah and the 9th fetchland from Kuma's list, and it's been quite good so far (of course these numbers are open to further tunning - just throwing the idea).

[mercs]

If you consider, that Rafiq, Wonder and Trygon are no Pitchcards (because you often need them), you have 18 - the one Force you play.

Spell Snare is very useful. I cutted 1 Survival because I just need 3 and not he full playset. For me there is no disscusion why to play the Survival nr.4 (that's just my opinion).

But Spell pierce instead is just too situational. I boarded it in against some decks and often boarded out 1-2 Spell Snares for it, but to put counter into the MD, which simply doesn't counter creatures seems bad.

Do you guys feel that wonder is really that vital?

I feel it's a great card, but it's no unpitchable. What do you guys think?
also, i feel in some cases, trgon can meet the fow too.

[Windux]

Of course this cards CAN be pitched.
For example Trygon Predator against Burn or Wonder against combo.
But I mean in general, you should always have a look after the cards for FoW and not just think "18 blue cards - perfect!" while X of them are cards you won't pitch.

[Kuma]

Loaming Shaman: I like the card, but what about running 2 Faerie Maccabre/1Genesis,1 Maccabre (both costs 2G to "Cast").
I do play 1 MAccabre and planning to play 2-3 in the board (over Crypt).

Glen Archmage against combo: He/She costs 4 to cast plus U to counter the first spell. I would play a Meddling Mage or Cannonist instead to have 4 solid creatures against combo in the cc2 slot (along with Gaddock Teeg).

Against which deck is the Silent Arbiter?

I haven't tested Loaming Shaman or Faerie Macabre. Macabre seems good because you can do it at instant speed to foil their plans, but it only hits two cards. I'll have to test both.

I said Glen Elendra Archmage could be relevant in the combo matchup. I didn't say it would be. If you're playing against non-Belcher combo, they'll probably want to get a Chant before they try to combo, potentially leaving you time to cast Archmage. In all likelihood, Archmage will be useless against combo, but I still probably side it in. The real reason I run it is for Stax/Landstill/Train Wreck.

Silent Arbiter is for Goblins/Ichorid/Belcher.

I think this is the reason why Horizon Canopy has been included in most Zoo manabases. I remember a post by one of the Hatfields explaining that Canopy lets you increase the land count while reducing the risk of mana flooding. I'm currently testing 20 lands with 2 Horizon Canopy instead of one Savannah and the 9th fetchland from Kuma's list, and it's been quite good so far (of course these numbers are open to further tunning - just throwing the idea).

I like the idea. The only issues I can see is that they aren't fetchable, and that most of the time I'm not going to sacrifice them since I need the mana. I'll probably test these too.

[godryk]

I'm reconsidering this deck for GP Madrid and I'd like to ask you some things, specially to Waikiki and Jak.

- What are your feelings about Spell Snare? The card has stopped being as popular as it used to be, but I'm considering it may be useful for a GP metagame...

- What are your thoughts about the matchup against fast aggro like Naya Burn? I found the matchup a little bit weak (although I don't have enough experience with the deck to make solid statements), and considering it's one of the most popular decks in Spain/Europe, I think this matchup should be solid preboard.