[Archetype] CounterTop

[Draener]

I ran supreme blue as well last sunday at a 24 man tourney and did pretty well (3rd) going 4-1-0. The loss was to landstill, and man was it complete. Vendillion clique helps a ton in the control matchups, as well as running more red elemental blasts. Other than that, I too am looking for ways to improve on my poor matchups and would be interested in hearing what others are doing.

[_erbs_]

@Raindown
How are doing in your meta ? what do you have in your list plus SB? the counter/top is good if you could cast it early on and the curve of your opponents deck is with in your curve aswell but if not its kinda useless.

I don't want to depend on the combo too much thats why i have 2 jittes aswell so i could go aggro mode and doubles as a life gain and creature removal.

But against zoo or decks with tons of removal and i can't get my counter/top online jitte is a dead card.

The combo feels iffy, sometimes its good at times crappy when the nat order is stuck in your hand.

Cards that work sometimes at times don't are:
- Jitte
- Nat order combo, you really need a counter backup for this if not its a 2 for 1 card for your opponent.

Cards i think that might help protect the combo:
- Vendillion Clique - peak at your opponents hand before pulling the combo out
- More counter magics - misdirection, daze, spellpierce, etc


@sauce
the supreme blue looks really solid but sadly i don't have any volcanic islands hehehe. firespout is really a nice sweeper.


@progenitus problem
try running tarifs in your SB..

[Shimi]

Hi people, I'm running Traditional list of Supreme Blue , and I'm very happy with it MD and many MUs , but I would like to discuss about match agains Evagreen with White (RockGuy Vindicator).

The first match is just like 70-30, but then things became wierd.They side in many disrupt so pos SB they have 3 Deed,4 Vindicate,3 Tombstalker,4 Bob and 4 Hymns , 4 Seize and 2 Duress as relevant disrupt or must answer.The problem is that the only way I can figure out I can win the game is CB lock and StP for Stalkers , but it becames very dificult to set up or protect since they have 10 discarts spells, 7 CB 3cc kills to destroy my plan while I need to deal with or dig for answers for tombstalkers , Goyfs and Bobs.
So the pos SB match becames like 20-80.So what do you guys think about the strategy for this pos SB match and which would be good SB plans?
KGrips for Deed could be a good SB?Elspeth or Shackles? And going with more 3cc cost cards or vidicate/deed targets could be the way to improve this pos SB match??
Relevant cards of my SB:
2 EE
2 Elspeth/Shackles
3 KGrip
1 openslot

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Hi people, I'm running Traditional list of Supreme Blue , and I'm very happy with it MD and many MUs , but I would like to discuss about match agains Evagreen with White (RockGuy Vindicator).

The first match is just like 70-30, but then things became wierd.They side in many disrupt so pos SB they have 3 Deed,4 Vindicate,3 Tombstalker,4 Bob and 4 Hymns , 4 Seize and 2 Duress as relevant disrupt or must answer.The problem is that the only way I can figure out I can win the game is CB lock and StP for Stalkers , but it becames very dificult to set up or protect since they have 10 discarts spells, 7 CB 3cc kills to destroy my plan while I need to deal with or dig for answers for tombstalkers , Goyfs and Bobs.
So the pos SB match becames like 20-80.So what do you guys think about the strategy for this pos SB match and which would be good SB plans?
KGrips for Deed could be a good SB?Elspeth or Shackles? And going with more 3cc cost cards or vidicate/deed targets could be the way to improve this pos SB match??
Relevant cards of my SB:
2 EE
2 Elspeth/Shackles
3 KGrip
1 openslot

I've always believed that BGW Suicide variants are some of the best decks in the format because i can't think of any bad matchups. They can answer most of the Tier Decks and have a good combo matchup. I don't think Grip is really worth it, because they can cast it and without passing priority pop the thing. It would seem worth it if they played SDT in their list.

You just need to save you STPs in this matchup. I know all their threats are great, but save it for the ones they're going to drop later. Oh what am i saying. They will always target Tundra first with Wasteland, and probably Vindicate as well. And some lists run Sinkhole. Such a horrid matchup.

Daze is your best friend in this matchup.

[sauce]

vs the rock - your goal is to get as many 3 drops into your deck post board as possible and land a cb/top early. only force/daze/counter the deed before u get cbtop online, you can deal w/ the rest later... make sure to never shuffle away the 3 drop if you're lucky to get it on top of your deck.

if you have a 3 drop - you win.

[fallenphoenix]

I played Surpreme Blue today in a 38-man tourney and duuuude...
I barely ever played a deck so rewarding. I sometimes felt like being very lucky with my draws, flipping blindly with CB, drawing answers when I needed them and being rarely flooded or screwed.

I went 5-0-1 winning vs Goyfsligh, NOProgbant w/o Balance, Goblins, Aggro Loam and Surpreme Blue, drawing vs a strange Kombodeck /w NO+Painter.

I played a standard list with the following changes:
-4 Daze
+4 Spell Snare
-1 Tropical
-1 Tundra
+1 Plains
+1 Forest

I like Spellsnare a lot more, b/c it just fits my play style.

[Raindown]

@Raindown
How are doing in your meta ? what do you have in your list plus SB? the counter/top is good if you could cast it early on and the curve of your opponents deck is with in your curve aswell but if not its kinda useless.

I run two Jittes, and like you said, sometimes it shines and something it just sits out there with no creature.

I also am not a fan of daze, it helps early on but I find drawing often makes me sad. I replaced my dazes with Spell Snares and like being about to counter both a 1cc (with it on top deck with CB) or a 2cc if I can draw it with top.

I'm thinking about running Rock next time, but I'm not sure that will do much better. CB/Top can be soul crushing if I can get it out early. Also NO/Prog is an amazing back up plan and really enjoy it in my deck.

EDIT: I do ok, seems luck of the draw sometimes but usually not great if zoo gets a lot of guys out there.

[thefreakaccident]

A very simple list that I've been loving. Keep in mind, my metagame runs little to no mana-denial, and therefore I can afford to get a little greedy.

lands//18
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

creatures//11
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhow war monk

spells//31
4 force of will
4 daze
4 thoughtseize
4 counterbalance
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
3 ponder

sideboard//
4 relic of progenitus
3 krosan grip
4 E. plague (need something better, honestly doesn't cut it anymore)
4 extirpate (additional hate against ichs, and pretty good against control).

The list has been going pretty good... And i like that it is very straight forward. You either super-disrupt them early game and drop balance/confidant for continued disruption, or just set them off balance early and start the beats.

The deck loses to challice really bad though (learned the hard way against stax last week), but what thresh list doesn't nowadays?

[Joon]

You could play a pair of Vindicates to solve the chalice problem und fill up the cc3 slot. I'd cut a Ponder and a Thoughtseize, as everything is too good.

[Misplayer]

Trygon Predator wins the Stax matchup single-handedly, and often the mirror match. If you play it and protect it (most Stax builds will likely have only a handful of outs), you'll win easily. It also pitches to Force and is considerably easier to cast than Vindicate.

I would be playing 4 Path to Exile in the sideboard of any deck playing white. Obviously it's money versus zoo/tribal decks, but it's big against Ichorid too.

[Enigma]

Aggro Loam and 43 Lands had a really great succes yesterday in St-Louis for the last SCG open of this year. The latter has seen a lot of TOP8 this year and I'm pretty sure everybody should now have this deck in check when planning to attend a large event.

For CB Top (For me, Supreme Blue), it means we need to focus in our weapons to fight it:

Pre-Board, our main goal should try to land CB/Top and let a 2cc+1cc on top, and then put a Tarmogoyf fast + preferably a Trygon to pass over their blockers if they have copies of Mishra's/Monastery/Treetop.

It's manageable, but I would say it's not much more than 55/45 in our favor.

Post-Board, they have responses to CB, but we add more Lftl hate in the form of 4 GY hate. If you have E.E., I would put them to fight early Explo/Bound. Pithing Needle is nice to answer Waste, Maze, Ring... but is easily anwsered too. Siding out is quite easy. For me: +2 Relic, +2 Trap, +2 Needle, +1 Grip, -2 Sower, -3 Firespout, -2 Spell snare.

P-M

[fallenphoenix]

I think Sower is quite a beating against them.

I would not advise to side them out, actually I side them in, because a lot of pilots side out some of the removal like Bolt, Devastating Dreams etc, b/c it hardly matters vs Goyf + Warmonk. Especially true, if you did not show them a Sower G1.

Also, I would't board Rav. Trap, you will almost never get Loam with it and also have a hard time shutting of recursion via Stronghold.

So I'd stick with Sower instead of Trap in your case.
You don't run any blue Blasts? They are also nice vs Crusher and Assault which are their main threats.

[Enigma]

You are speaking about Aggro-Loam while I do about 43 lands, which is not the same deck. Then, yes, Sower is very good against Aggro-Loam.

Your comment about Trap reminds me why I was playing Crypt over it. With the comeback of these decks in the meta, Crypt might be better than trap.

Thanks,

P-M

[fallenphoenix]

Oh yeah, I misread you previous post :)

Obviously no Sowers against 43lands. If you are able to fit any kind of Landhate into your board, that might help a lot (Bloodmoon, Winter Orb, those cards are actually nice in some other MUs, too, i.e. ITF, Landstill...).

Otherwise you've pretty much said it, a swift Clock and Balance@2 to fight loam preboard. Gravehate and perhaps Grip postboard.
If they draw multiple Maze of Ith, chances are you're not going to get there in time before they eventually assemble a critical mass of man-lands.
Also watch out for Worm Harvest, which buys them tons of time if it hits.

Additionally, games vs 43lands tend to be very drawn out, so you might consider scooping up the first game faster than usual, if the situation looks grim and you think you have better chances postboard.
You don't want them to win the first game with 5 minutes left in the round...

[Ombras]

Good Evening at you all!

I'm an italian Magic player who don't speak very well English, therefore I'm sorry for my limitations.
I don't write on this forum by large time, but I would talk about my considerations on Countertop.

First, I play Countertop in all kinds, Supreme Blue, Nassif, Probasco, Dreadstill and much other.

But, looking this metagame, I think that the only version that can survives between a large amount of Zoo, Merfolks, Goblin, Canadian and some Randoms Aggro (Elves-Geddon, Soldiers) is the Japanese.
I test it by two-three mounths, and results are pretty good.

My list is the following:

3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Island

3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trygon Predator

2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
3x Ponder

Sb: I wouldn't reveal at this moment.

The deck is a Stone, so much compact and very very versatile.

Aggro decks are certainly positives MU, except Merfolks, against them we can play at 50-50, and for a Blue-Based deck isn't bad

The real problem, in my opinion, are decks like Rock, Stax, Landstill. We must have an appropriate sideboard against them, but is always so bad win the game.

Any suggestions?

[sauce]

Good Evening at you all!

I'm an italian Magic player who don't speak very well English, therefore I'm sorry for my limitations.
I don't write on this forum by large time, but I would talk about my considerations on Countertop.

First, I play Countertop in all kinds, Supreme Blue, Nassif, Probasco, Dreadstill and much other.

But, looking this metagame, I think that the only version that can survives between a large amount of Zoo, Merfolks, Goblin, Canadian and some Randoms Aggro (Elves-Geddon, Soldiers) is the Japanese.
I test it by two-three mounths, and results are pretty good.

My list is the following:

3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Island

3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trygon Predator

2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
3x Ponder

Sb: I wouldn't reveal at this moment.

The deck is a Stone, so much compact and very very versatile.

Aggro decks are certainly positives MU, except Merfolks, against them we can play at 50-50, and for a Blue-Based deck isn't bad

The real problem, in my opinion, are decks like Rock, Stax, Landstill. We must have an appropriate sideboard against them, but is always so bad win the game.

Any suggestions?

Goblins is also no walk in the park... they just Stingscourge/Wasteland you and Aether vial makes Counterbalance suck most of the time.
I pretty much stopped playing this deck because beating Goblins has been insanely difficult, youre a huge dog vs them unless you get the stones and they draw 7 mountains and keep.

The rock is easier to beat than Staxx... just keep a 3 drop on top for the rock and you should win.
vs Staxx I found Gaddock Teeg/K-grip to be the best, and Crucible is a must counter.

Cheers.

[Ombras]

I agreed for the Rock problem, but see Counterbalance + Top and eventually a Swords for his Tombstalker is, in practice, the only way.

Vs Stax, I use 3x Gaddock Teeg in side, indeed, is more simple post sb ;)

But, do you really consider Goblin a bad mu? I am 30-14 pre and post side vs Goblin, one resolved Firespout means game, one (or better two) resolved Rhox are also game, resolved Elspeth if you have few turns of life is game, you have removal for his Piledriver... In my tests, is an absolute slighty-favorable game.

[sauce]

I agreed for the Rock problem, but see Counterbalance + Top and eventually a Swords for his Tombstalker is, in practice, the only way.

Vs Stax, I use 3x Gaddock Teeg in side, indeed, is more simple post sb ;)

But, do you really consider Goblin a bad mu? I am 30-14 pre and post side vs Goblin, one resolved Firespout means game, one (or better two) resolved Rhox are also game, resolved Elspeth if you have few turns of life is game, you have removal for his Piledriver... In my tests, is an absolute slighty-favorable game.

what goblins build are you 30-14 vs???
is the player terrible?
they usually just get a matron/ringleader and a firespout is not game ending.
if you get to actually swing w/ the RWM - you should win obviously.. usually he just gets stingscourged if you wasted resources on 1st/2nd/etc turn lackeys.

[Draener]

I agreed for the Rock problem, but see Counterbalance + Top and eventually a Swords for his Tombstalker is, in practice, the only way.

Vs Stax, I use 3x Gaddock Teeg in side, indeed, is more simple post sb ;)

But, do you really consider Goblin a bad mu? I am 30-14 pre and post side vs Goblin, one resolved Firespout means game, one (or better two) resolved Rhox are also game, resolved Elspeth if you have few turns of life is game, you have removal for his Piledriver... In my tests, is an absolute slighty-favorable game.

What do you side out for teeg?

[sauce]

What do you side out for teeg?

Firespout?