[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[johanessen]

After saying this about three times now, you haven't given us any reason at all to belive you. Top is not worse than Ponder. Top is not a suboptimal choice. In fact, from a blue players perspective, Top is one of the most dangerous cards in our deck. It is very often the right play to use a FoW on Top. The chances of winning with the Doomsday Hybrid increase enormously if you manage to resolve a first turn Top.

Top is worse than ponder in non-DD builds, it searches and gives you a card the same turn you play it and top doesn't unless you're playing it past the first turns. As people said Ad Nauseam DDLess builds have to go on turn three or maximum four if the opponentent applies pressure and Ponder is better than top here. I am playing Serum Visions in the top slots atm in my ANT (w/o DD) build.

[Wave]

Wow, AdN has certainly sent combo in the wrong direction. You get all these people who think combo is nothing more than: ritual, ritual AdN ... win. Very sad actually, then all the people who act like they know how to play combo.

This is actually nothing new, when Vintage was the only Eternal format the most common combo win was mana acceleration, mana acceleration, Yawgmoth's Will or Bazaar of Baghdad, Dragon, Dance of the dead and my favorite Illusions, Donate win. Combo has actually never been a hard deck to play if you just had a little practice with the deck. I agree that Ad Nauseam has made it easier to play combo but it's never been that hard to play combo.

[Rico Suave]

Wow, AdN has certainly sent combo in the wrong direction. You get all these people who think combo is nothing more than: ritual, ritual AdN ... win. Very sad actually, then all the people who act like they know how to play combo.

You know what, ur right. Sensei's Divining Top has no place in combo. It contributes nothing to consistency and slows the deck down. Oh wait ..... we aren't playing Belcher and its not about speed. Please gain experience with the deck before mindlessly posting in these threads. People like: emidln, B.C., Bahamuth, kicks 422, Bryant Cook, and myself have been posting on these boards a long time and play combo regularly. We know what makes a combo deck work.

Now, Doomsday is not for everyone, I understand this. Doomsday is easily the most skill testing card in legacy. There is almost always a stack that gets you out of a situation, you just have to see it. And anyone who thinks relying on speed to win matchups should just be ignored because that is ignorant. Combo, regardless of the build, IS NOT GOING TO WIN ON TURNS 1-3 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS. You will have to mulligan and play against your opponent. There are 2 kinds of combo players, competent pilots and idiots who bitch about the deck not working right. OK, I get it, gain experience with the deck. It is not about speed, you want a fast combo deck, play Belcher, it requires a lot less thinking and is a lot less consistent.

Also, its very sad that people still play Dark Confidant. THE CARD IS AWFUL. You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it. This card was run in like ... older TES builds when they needed card advantage. There is a reason people like Bryant Cook, emidln, and myself don't play this card in combo SB, we tested it and its terrible. Xantid Swarm is different, it is not necessary but its really good. If it resolves it makes the mirror just sick and makes Merfolk almost a bye. In the Thresh matchup you don't even have to board them in, just the threat of playing it can mean something.

Honestly, when all the new combo players complain "I can't beat CB" its because they have no idea how to play against it. You want to run Angel's Grace and then side in 3-4 Grip or Wipe Away ... have fun and I wish you luck. Its not about luck or getting good draws, those of us who play combo know AdN is worthless after turn 4 most of the time and Doomsday only requires 2 life to win. Combo is all about having the right build of your deck to win any given matchup at any given time. It has nothing to do with speed, ANT is fast, sure, but consistency is infinitely more important. Those of us who used to play SI, Belcher, and FT can attest to that. Please gain experience with the deck, take it to more than one tournament, then post about your experiences and ask what you could have done to win, chances are excellent that you were in a position to win but just didn't see it.

When did I ever complain about not being able to play combo? I've been playing combo since the days of Academy and Necro-Trix in Standard. I've been playing Tendrils lists extensively since the card was printed, which was before the format was even revamped with its own B/R list, and probably before you ever picked it up. Attack somebody else's experience, but not mine.

The reason I was posting in here in the first place is precisely because Kim Kluck's list was so surprisingly good against CB/Top. My testing partner is no slouch in the CB/Top department either, and he was just as surprised as I was. Kim Kluck is excellent at designing decks and this one is no exception.

You can defend Doomsday all day long, but the results back up what I'm saying too. Why are only 7 of the 30 combo decks on deckcheck running Doomsday? Is it because all of them are terrible and just don't know how to play Doomsday properly? Hardly. Why is it that 3 decks in one tournament, which was saturated with CB/Top, ended up with 3 storm lists in the top 4? It sure wasn't because they were playing Doomsday and I'm pretty sure it had a lot to do with their SB Dark Confidants (which I'll get to later).

With that out of way, let's talk about SDT.

The use of SDT is more than just about goldfish speed, which isn't really all that relevant anyway because the deck isn't going to outrace all the 2cc cards that stop it cold (at least not most of the time). Regardless of which turn you win, SDT does slow you down. It has a big impact on your tempo, it makes the rest of your cards a bit slower, and it is very clunky in comparison. There is no denying this.

I love Top and it is very powerful when you have time to set up and sculpt a hand, but the simple fact is Ponder uses 1 mana and Top needs 2 mana to do the same thing. In a highly tempo oriented deck, it is extremely difficult to justify running Top over Ponder or Brainstorm. The real question in regards to SDT is whether the deck *needs* additional search/manipulation beyond 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Mystical, and some set of Infernal Tutors. This is the question that you conveniently didn't answer.

In regards to Dark Confidant, your logic in comparing Xantid to Confidant is...extremely lacking.

"You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it"

Using your own words, I'd have to say your argument against Confidant is the exact reason for not including Xantid Swarm.

Dark Confidant offers a lot to the deck. Swarm will do nothing except protect, whereas Confidant will draw you into protection, answers, and business. Confidant will advance your game-plan while simultaneously protecting it, whereas Xantid just protects it without advancing it.

[Elf_Ascetic]

You're all just ranting about how Top costs 2 and all, but you're missing two big things:

First, You don't have to run Top instead of all Ponders, say you run this:
4 BS
3 Ponder
2 Top.

That's a pretty solid list when talking about speed. This list is not very much slower then the regular lists. I think it's good to run 2 tops in a non-DD list. I believe that Top never costs you the turn you need. Top can speed you up: Top in play means an awesome mystical tutor.

Secondly, You can use top MULTIPLE times. Againt Countertop, bant agro, merfolk, eva green, the rock, landstill and even in the mirror, you want to spin top multiple times. Finding double or triple protection is so much easier with one top then it is with one ponder. Against discard, Top is the card that doesn't make you dependent of random topdecks. Ow, and do I need to tell that top is great when facing Chalice or/and Trinisphere?

[Bahamuth]

When did I ever complain about not being able to play combo? I've been playing combo since the days of Academy and Necro-Trix in Standard. I've been playing Tendrils lists extensively since the card was printed, which was before the format was even revamped with its own B/R list, and probably before you ever picked it up. Attack somebody else's experience, but not mine.

The reason I was posting in here in the first place is precisely because Kim Kluck's list was so surprisingly good against CB/Top. My testing partner is no slouch in the CB/Top department either, and he was just as surprised as I was. Kim Kluck is excellent at designing decks and this one is no exception.

You can defend Doomsday all day long, but the results back up what I'm saying too. Why are only 7 of the 30 combo decks on deckcheck running Doomsday? Is it because all of them are terrible and just don't know how to play Doomsday properly? Hardly. Why is it that 3 decks in one tournament, which was saturated with CB/Top, ended up with 3 storm lists in the top 4? It sure wasn't because they were playing Doomsday and I'm pretty sure it had a lot to do with their SB Dark Confidants (which I'll get to later).

With that out of way, let's talk about SDT.

The use of SDT is more than just about goldfish speed, which isn't really all that relevant anyway because the deck isn't going to outrace all the 2cc cards that stop it cold (at least not most of the time). Regardless of which turn you win, SDT does slow you down. It has a big impact on your tempo, it makes the rest of your cards a bit slower, and it is very clunky in comparison. There is no denying this.

I love Top and it is very powerful when you have time to set up and sculpt a hand, but the simple fact is Ponder uses 1 mana and Top needs 2 mana to do the same thing. In a highly tempo oriented deck, it is extremely difficult to justify running Top over Ponder or Brainstorm. The real question in regards to SDT is whether the deck *needs* additional search/manipulation beyond 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Mystical, and some set of Infernal Tutors. This is the question that you conveniently didn't answer.

In regards to Dark Confidant, your logic in comparing Xantid to Confidant is...extremely lacking.

"You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it"

Using your own words, I'd have to say your argument against Confidant is the exact reason for not including Xantid Swarm.

Dark Confidant offers a lot to the deck. Swarm will do nothing except protect, whereas Confidant will draw you into protection, answers, and business. Confidant will advance your game-plan while simultaneously protecting it, whereas Xantid just protects it without advancing it.

Please don't use experience as an argument. I don't care at all how long any of the people on these boards have been playing storm combo. It doesn't say anything about how good you are with this deck or what kind of options you have tested.

Please stop praising the dude's list. It's bitter to me. As I already said, we've been running that list for more than a year. There's nothing special about it.

Please don't use deckcheck as an argument. The reality is that Doomsday adds so much difficulty to this deck, that many players (probably including me) are unable to handle it. Numbers on deckcheck don't mean anything. My testing has concluded that most of the lists that we see top 8'ing on deckcheck are crap. This doesn't mean the deck can't win, just that it's a bad version of the deck.

One Top alone let's this deck play the control role extremely well. I don't think there's any deck in Legacy right now, that can outcontrol this deck once it resolves a Top. Top is by no means clunky. The fact that Top sometimes slows you down is completely irrelevant, because there's no difference in wether you win games fast or not if you win them anyway. The lists with Top and Doomsday perform much better against all sorts of blue decks because these lists are slower.

I have already given you a very good reason to run Top over Ponder. There's no questioning that this deck should run 4 Brainstorm. It is the best card in the format, and the card is used best in this deck.

We (at least I, but I thought more people beside me) don't board in Swarm against decks that run removal at all. I don't want Confidant against Merfolk, because I need to be relatively quick in this matchup. Xantid Swarm doesn't get removed because it isn't boarded in against decks that can remove it. You name Confidant as an answer to CB. Pretty much every CB list answers Confidant, either through Spell Snare or StP. You don't want any of those to happen.

[slobad23]

Please don't use experience as an argument...

...My testing has concluded

:-D

[Bahamuth]

:-D

Testing =/= experience.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Rico_Suave: Sorry, your post was very long and I conveniently forgot to address something, which I shall address now. Yes, ANT needs to run Top. This is the same amount of cantrips that TES runs and I have had consistency issues in the past with that deck (which has more ways to win) just running Ponders and BS. Top is infinitely better than Ponder in any control matchup. If you abuse it properly with fetchlands + additional shuffle effects it lets you do insane things. Also, having Top in play and casting Brainstorm with LEDs and AdN in hand is a win. You pull so many wins out of nowhere if you properly know how to play it, I have won numerous games when I had shit tons of mana + 2 Tops and just shuffled them back and forth into a Tendrils.

Top also helps during AdN, if one is in play or revealed, it always helps Mystical Tutor + additional storm. I have had many a bad AdN reveals where i can only make one blue mana but a lot of black ... no problem with Top. Ritual it out then MT into the win. The hybrids are just as fast as regular ANT lists. They consistently win on turns 1-3. Top may slow the deck down fundamentally by a turn, but I would rather wait till turn 3-4 and draw what I need rather than risk keeping a terrible hand with all acceleration and Ponder. Top makes more hands keepable, almost any hand with land, Top, fetch in it is keepable. It also helps filter your bad draws after a mulligan, Ponder only happens once, Top works every turn.

You totally missed my point about Xantid Swarm. You are relying on Dark Confidant to make a difference in the CB matchup, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DRAW SWARM FOR IT TO BE EFFECTIVE. I play the 7th Chant in the board and after bringing it in I can bring in Swarm, but you don't have to. The threat of not having answers leads your opponents to cut better card and leave in StP just because they can't deal with a resolved Swarm. Also, Merfolk has no answer for a resolved Swarm. Confidant is terrible against Merfolk, kills you almost as fast as the fishies do. But just to be clear, you are not reliant at all on Swarm, it is there for when you need it but you don't even have to draw it. When running Confidant you become reliant on him and after your opponent counters it with Spell Snare (the Hybrid runs 5 2 drops and easily avoids this) or kills it then you are in topdeck mode. Confidant hurts consistency issues and you become reliant on it.

I am not going to discuss Doomsday and how amazing the card is, it has been discussed in depth in numerous different threads; a competent storm player can get the hang of it, its just a matter of putting in the hours, reading the articles emidln wrote, and learning how to play it right.

[miro]

reading the articles emidln wrote

link?
i'm learning to play storm now, and my google-fu is weak

[Pulp_Fiction]

This was in his sig:

http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9

There is a link to crafting DD piles in there as well.

Here is the original DDFT list which is a little outdated but the info on how to play DD still applies:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...light=doomsday

It is very important to read these, find an updated list of ANT running DD or put one of the old DDFT lists together, and then goldfish the hell out of it till you get it. I actually printed off some of the piles and started looking at hands that I thought could win and then went through the piles to see what worked. Just keep going till you get it.

[Rico Suave]

Please don't use experience as an argument. I don't care at all how long any of the people on these boards have been playing storm combo. It doesn't say anything about how good you are with this deck or what kind of options you have tested.

You make all sorts of implications about my experience, so don't expect that I'll just sit by and ignore them. You can sit here and make all sorts of statements about play skill or experience that you want, but nobody who can think beyond a 10th grade level will take these attacks seriously and it would be best if you left experience and/or play skill arguments at home.

Ironically, the only argument you have used so far is...your own experience. You tell me that my experience is not a valid argument, yet the only argument you can present is your own experience. Perhaps you should reconsider what you're saying because it is very close-minded.

I don't care to discuss childish remarks like these any further. If you have an issue, PM me about it.

One Top alone let's this deck play the control role extremely well. I don't think there's any deck in Legacy right now, that can outcontrol this deck once it resolves a Top. Top is by no means clunky. The fact that Top sometimes slows you down is completely irrelevant, because there's no difference in wether you win games fast or not if you win them anyway. The lists with Top and Doomsday perform much better against all sorts of blue decks because these lists are slower.

Sure Top is great in a control role, but this is not a control deck.

We (at least I, but I thought more people beside me) don't board in Swarm against decks that run removal at all. I don't want Confidant against Merfolk, because I need to be relatively quick in this matchup. Xantid Swarm doesn't get removed because it isn't boarded in against decks that can remove it. You name Confidant as an answer to CB. Pretty much every CB list answers Confidant, either through Spell Snare or StP. You don't want any of those to happen.

I've already explained why a threat is better than an answer. At worst Confidant will trade 1:1 with an enemy card, sometimes he will stay in play several turns and give you an advantage, and sometimes he will win the game by himself. More often than not he falls into the latter 2 categories.

I never said anything about Confidant against Merfolk though.

@Rico_Suave: Sorry, your post was very long and I conveniently forgot to address something, which I shall address now. Yes, ANT needs to run Top. This is the same amount of cantrips that TES runs and I have had consistency issues in the past with that deck (which has more ways to win) just running Ponders and BS. Top is infinitely better than Ponder in any control matchup. If you abuse it properly with fetchlands + additional shuffle effects it lets you do insane things. Also, having Top in play and casting Brainstorm with LEDs and AdN in hand is a win. You pull so many wins out of nowhere if you properly know how to play it, I have won numerous games when I had shit tons of mana + 2 Tops and just shuffled them back and forth into a Tendrils.

I never said Top was a bad card, or that it wouldn't let you win.

However, it's not better than Ponder. Even against control it's much better to cast a Ponder because you have your other mana open to do whatever you please. Your game plan falls into place earlier. You are able to take advantage of tempo and make plays that your opponent simply cannot answer solely because of the timing.

I could go on and on about tempo, which is extremely important in such a tempo-oriented deck, but I think you get the idea.

It doesn't have much to do with consistency. In fact, it's hard to argue that a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 8 tutors is inconsistent. Would more Tops help to create more consistency? Sure, but it's extremely redundant, and like I said earlier you'll just end up searching for more search which is pointless.

Top also helps during AdN, if one is in play or revealed, it always helps Mystical Tutor + additional storm. I have had many a bad AdN reveals where i can only make one blue mana but a lot of black ... no problem with Top. Ritual it out then MT into the win. The hybrids are just as fast as regular ANT lists. They consistently win on turns 1-3. Top may slow the deck down fundamentally by a turn, but I would rather wait till turn 3-4 and draw what I need rather than risk keeping a terrible hand with all acceleration and Ponder. Top makes more hands keepable, almost any hand with land, Top, fetch in it is keepable. It also helps filter your bad draws after a mulligan, Ponder only happens once, Top works every turn.

Like I said, Top is not a bad card. There will be times you'd rather have Top than Ponder, but guess what? There will be times you'd rather have Mons Goblin Raiders instead of either one.

It doesn't matter if there is a scenario where Top is better. What matters is which card is better in the deck.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...p?Article=3350

You totally missed my point about Xantid Swarm. You are relying on Dark Confidant to make a difference in the CB matchup,

Who said anything about relying on it? It's just one tool to achieve the deck's goal. It is hardly a crutch for the deck if that is what you're implying.

I am not going to discuss Doomsday and how amazing the card is, it has been discussed in depth in numerous different threads; a competent storm player can get the hang of it, its just a matter of putting in the hours, reading the articles emidln wrote, and learning how to play it right.

I'm not talking about the being able to create a Doomsday stack.

I'm talking about the function of Doomsday in the deck. What does it solve? Being able to win at low life and/or mana? Guess what, when you run Doomsday you end up being forced to run SDT, and SDT will eat up your mana and slow you down so you end up at low life and low mana in the first place.

In a way, it is self defeating. Furthermore, if you run SDT you make one of two choices:
1) You run SDT in place of Ponder
2) You run more search than the deck needs (or wants)

Neither of those are good. Doomsday takes the focus away from being able to generate storm and more into the realm of a fancy but unnecessary trick, and you risk losing because of the danger of cool things. In fact, I'd argue that if Doomsday is really that difficult to play properly, that's a pretty damn good reason in and of itself not to run it in the first place.

What it boils down to is this: does the deck need a 3rd engine to generate storm? No.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Wow, that is seriously some of the worst combo advice I have ever read. Welcome to my ignore list

[CUB3X]

Not to stir up more arguing but he does make valid points, but can we please stop arguing.

I would like to discuss sideboard options for specific decks.

SB against:

Black Discard(Eva Green, Pox, Homebrew)
4 Confidants?
Additional Ad Nauseam/Tendrils

Progenitus Threshold
Silences
Wipe Away/Krosan


Mirror
Angel's Grace
Maybe Confidants (Maybe not because of life loss)

Survival
Don't think anything is needed, match-up is really easy

Dragon Stompy
Echoing Truth
Hurky's Recall
Wipe Away/ Krosan

Landstill
Same as thresh


Do those look like solid SB choices? I'd like to hear people's opinions and what people found best from experience.

[Bahamuth]

You know what, fuck it. I'm not arguing with you any longer. Please go ahead and keep getting your Confidants StP'd and keep losing to Tempo Thresh because you don't run Top. I don't think you completely see what Top does for you in this deck, and I don't think you ever will.

[Waikiki]

agree to disagree shall we ?

[matelml]

You make all sorts of implications about my experience, so don't expect that I'll just sit by and ignore them. You can sit here and make all sorts of statements about play skill or experience that you want, but nobody who can think beyond a 10th grade level will take these attacks seriously and it would be best if you left experience and/or play skill arguments at home.

Ironically, the only argument you have used so far is...your own experience. You tell me that my experience is not a valid argument, yet the only argument you can present is your own experience. Perhaps you should reconsider what you're saying because it is very close-minded.

I don't care to discuss childish remarks like these any further. If you have an issue, PM me about it.

Ok, I'll continue the argument.

Experiance is an indicator, but it doesn't mean someone is correct. There is no way to prove one person is right on this matter. But that is not the goal either, the goal is to convince people to try what works best for yourself, to help them.

I have experiance with both DDay and non-DDay (similar to kim kluck's list(-1 land, +1 Cabal Ritual) the list Bahamuth was talking about, from our team) and I am non entirely sure which one is best. But I am sure their power level is really close and DDay is something to look into.

Sure Top is great in a control role, but this is not a control deck.

True. But this doesn't mean it's not an advantage being able to play in control mode. Being able to play control; improving your position more than your opponent over time, is an advantage. It doesn't force you in the control mode, although many times you will use it since it is so good in that role. It still is a combo deck though, when you know you must race, you can still race (against zoo gobs for example).

I've already explained why a threat is better than an answer. At worst Confidant will trade 1:1 with an enemy card, sometimes he will stay in play several turns and give you an advantage, and sometimes he will win the game by himself. More often than not he falls into the latter 2 categories.

I never said anything about Confidant against Merfolk though.

Trading 1 for 1 is horrible in this deck. Imagine your opponent was able to trade all their useless StP's, Deed's, Lands, Elspeths, etc for your Brainstorms, Dark Rituals, Infernal Tutors. The enemy card he is trading with was probably a dead card otherwise. I am not saying the card is horrible, but I don't think it is the best option.

I never said Top was a bad card, or that it wouldn't let you win.

However, it's not better than Ponder. Even against control it's much better to cast a Ponder because you have your other mana open to do whatever you please. Your game plan falls into place earlier. You are able to take advantage of tempo and make plays that your opponent simply cannot answer solely because of the timing.

I could go on and on about tempo, which is extremely important in such a tempo-oriented deck, but I think you get the idea.

It doesn't have much to do with consistency. In fact, it's hard to argue that a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 8 tutors is inconsistent. Would more Tops help to create more consistency? Sure, but it's extremely redundant, and like I said earlier you'll just end up searching for more search which is pointless.



Like I said, Top is not a bad card. There will be times you'd rather have Top than Ponder, but guess what? There will be times you'd rather have Mons Goblin Raiders instead of either one.

It doesn't matter if there is a scenario where Top is better. What matters is which card is better in the deck.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...p?Article=3350

Well, my experiance is that Top is a whole lot better against decks that have no or not much of a clock. The reason is simple to see: in this case you will have enough mana over the course of the game and won't be able to spend it all on other things. My experiance is also that Ponder is better against decks with a fast clock, so Top isn't strictly better.

Who said anything about relying on it? It's just one tool to achieve the deck's goal. It is hardly a crutch for the deck if that is what you're implying.



I'm not talking about the being able to create a Doomsday stack.

I'm talking about the function of Doomsday in the deck. What does it solve? Being able to win at low life and/or mana? Guess what, when you run Doomsday you end up being forced to run SDT, and SDT will eat up your mana and slow you down so you end up at low life and low mana in the first place.

In a way, it is self defeating. Furthermore, if you run SDT you make one of two choices:
1) You run SDT in place of Ponder
2) You run more search than the deck needs (or wants)

Neither of those are good. Doomsday takes the focus away from being able to generate storm and more into the realm of a fancy but unnecessary trick, and you risk losing because of the danger of cool things. In fact, I'd argue that if Doomsday is really that difficult to play properly, that's a pretty damn good reason in and of itself not to run it in the first place.

What it boils down to is this: does the deck need a 3rd engine to generate storm? No.

This part I believe has some merit. I have said the same things. But you can say whatever you want, the deck works pretty well for me (not much better than the non-DDay list though) so I kindly give you the advice to try it.

Just one thing about your last arguments, I don't think the deck doesn't want more search than 4 Ponder/4 BS/4Mystical. With this configuration I encounter this situation more than feels right: opening hand has mana, lands(, Protection) and just 1 brainstorm/Ponder. The BS/Ponder doesn't find another cantrip/Mystical/IT or AdN and you are waiting while drawing random cards.

[Rico Suave]

RE: Top

If your opponent doesn't have much of a clock, or no clock, you shouldn't have much trouble winning. Sure Top will be better than Ponder in those situations, but the deck doesn't need to be better in those situations.

Ponder is worlds better than Top when under pressure though, and those are the times this deck needs the most it can get tempo wise from its own cards.

"Being able to play control; improving your position more than your opponent over time, is an advantage."

This is not control. This is called developing your resources. Ultimately you are still the aggressor in almost every match. =|

RE: The optimal amount of search

"I don't think the deck doesn't want more search than 4 Ponder/4 BS/4Mystical. With this configuration I encounter this situation more than feels right: opening hand has mana, lands(, Protection) and just 1 brainstorm/Ponder. The BS/Ponder doesn't find another cantrip/Mystical/IT or AdN and you are waiting while drawing random cards."

This is a valid argument. Now how often does this lose the game?

Of course, when playing with more search, I encountered the situation of having too much search, and encountered it more often than felt right.

Regardless of how much search is actually in the deck, there will be times where it shows up too much or too little.

I can't say for certain that no Tops belong in the deck. I feel comfortable saying that 4 each of BS/Ponder/Top/Mystical/IT does not belong. I can also say that 4 Ponder definitely belong before any Tops do.

Doomsday will distort this as previously mentioned. That is why I do not like playing it, as it forces the use of cards that I don't feel are optimal. This is ignoring any sort of problems with the use of the card itself.

[Elf_Ascetic]

This is not control. This is called developing your resources. Ultimately you are still the aggressor in almost every match. =|

Whatever you like to call it, Top does an amazing job at it.
More on point: If you define control as the deck that gets better then the other deck over time, then this is in 75% of the matchups the controldeck.

Regardless of how much search is actually in the deck, there will be times where it shows up too much or too little.

Complete bullshit argument for uhm, really anything. Whatever.

I can't say for certain that no Tops belong in the deck. I feel comfortable saying that 4 each of BS/Ponder/Top/Mystical/IT does not belong. I can also say that 4 Ponder definitely belong before any Tops do.

I think you're gonna be disappointed when you'll test it more. No one here is saying you have to run 4 Top in non-DD ANT. But try two of them, and you'll be fine. I think you cannot know wether ponder #4 belongs in this deck more then Top does. I like seeing Top now and then, so I run two. Three can be done, one too

And please, listen to the guys who do have more experience with this deck and have done more testing, before you keep on being stubborn. Pulp_Fiction, Bahamuth and matelm are all very capable players and really know what they are talking about here.

Doomsday will distort this as previously mentioned. That is why I do not like playing it, as it forces the use of cards that I don't feel are optimal. This is ignoring any sort of problems with the use of the card itself.

Then you're not playing it right. On paper, the addition of DD makes this deck slower. However, you're getting one fantastic solution for that problem: DD itself. I think there is only one valid reason not to run DD in your deck at this point: Not being able to play it. And before you'll attack me because you think this is directed at you: it is not. Not only DD itself, but the dicisions when to play what cantrips are really hard. There no shame in admitting you're not able to play this deck good enough, I for example am sure that I can't.

[JudasKilled]

You know what, fuck it. I'm not arguing with you any longer. Please go ahead and keep getting your Confidants StP'd and keep losing to Tempo Thresh because you don't run Top. I don't think you completely see what Top does for you in this deck, and I don't think you ever will.

Ok I only play storm in vintage , i play aggro in legacy usually. Who the fuck would ever keep there removal in against storm? ever? Burn sure.....swords? fuck no, smother? no......sooooooo kinda a retarded argument and i cant really think someones SB plan when expecting a turn 2 clock without disruption is 2 land a threat and STP there own guy. So outside of G1 why the fuck would non red have removal?


As far as top/vs instant speed you have to consider what your goal is:

I reccomend looking at the diffrences between ad nauseum and like BoB Tendrils in vintage......they both storm but are drastically diffrent decks. Check it out maybe some innovation will occur

[Henrik]

@ Rico Suave

What Elf Ascetic said. You don't have to play 4 tops, you don't even have to modify the list by replacing a playset of anything. I agree with both parts in this discussion to some extent, and my own list is more similar to yours. I don't play doomsday and I also like confidant, even if it's 2 years old tech, I don't care if I appear noobish. I admit that I haven't tested doomsday enough to really know what situations it can save me from, so I won't say anything about that particular spell. It just seems to frickin' hard to me! But so far, I am happy with the list i play.

Still, I replaced the 4th ponder and 4th Infernal tutor with 2 tops, and I really like it. I hardly miss the replaced spells, and when the top do show up, it has helped me in situations where I am in a bad topdeck streak, i.e. I held a hand with 1 or 2 cantrips and mana development and still didn't find anything useful, just ending up with draw go with a lot of mana unused for the turn.