I'm playing SupremeBlue (japanese version) and the worst MU is DragonStomp but it is almost dead, Merfolk is very tight but firespout + goyf/RHM usually wins( or T2 CB lock).Goblins is hard but if you could counter ringleader and make them extend so you can Firespout you win.The rock and evagreen is quite easy pre-side and with 3cc card the pos side became fair.
About Elspeth I'm running just 1 in my SB , cause it is good against CB matchs and againts the rest I have other better cards (Threads , Shackles and 4th Firespout).
I was trying an UGB version of CB but you need a very aggro-controlish metagame cause zoo merfolks and goblins became bad MUs.
Super Bizarros Team.
HUEHUEHUE BRBRBR. VIVA DILMA!!! EM NOME DE JESUS CRISTO!
90%Originally Posted by Shimi
Dragon Stompy isn't too bad, is difficult, sure, but not in this way: Firespout eat all creatures (only Arc-Slogger remain) and you can cast it under Blood Moon. Play Rainforest and singleton Forest and the MU become better.
I'm also trying an UGB version, but more like Nassif version, with a little red splash to play Spouts on sideboard. But, is a deck for a Control/Aggro Control metagame (not actually playable, in my opinion, but I like too much this :( )
With standard Goblin Builds, like Uw and Ubg. Ringleader, if you can remove/destroy/counter vial is the only card that you would counter (you have also a lot of remotions) and it go under Daze (Goblin haven't so many lands). Post side, I usually improve the MU with 4^ Firespout and Needles. Stingscourged aren't too played in our place, we prefer playing StP
What do you think about this list I recently came up with:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox Warmonk
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
It is very straightforward and very strong in testing thus far. I felt comfortable playing against Zoo, ANT and Canadian Threshold while Merfolk was a rather difficult matchup preboard but ok postboard.
It is basically a baseruption list I tried to adjust for a more agressive metagame. Any suggestions? Furthermore in testing Daze felt pretty weak, what do you think about it's inclusion?
Any list in the modern metagame not playing Firespout is doing it wrong. The format is too aggressive to play without a sweeper.
This is exagerate. Metagame is various and you can live also in a field full off Rock, Bant, ANT...
It depends by locations and by, also, gameplan.
Firespout is good against?
- Zoo
- Merfolks
- Goblin
- Elves
But, against ANT, Rock, Reanimator, Stax, Dreadstill, other Countertop, Belcher etcetera is a dead card.
Personally, AT THE MOMENT, I run it (playing Supreme Blue) because in Rome metagame is pretty aggro, but, I repeat, it depends by fields.
Sure, your metagame may vary. But on the whole, we're discussing the LEGACY metagame, which consists largely of what decks are consistently making top 8 at large events. These decks are becoming more and more aggressive, and as such, the legacy metagame is becoming more aggressive.
I don't think spout is must run card. Look at the top lists from St. Louis. Spout is good against fish and zoo, but a blank against 43 land and loam (all their guys are too big except confidant, and by the time you play spout confidant will have drawn them a card or two).
Even in this meta game their inclusion is debatable.
@Ombras
I said that the DragonStomp MU is difficult because in my list I DON'T run any forest.. so if they land Blood Moon i just can't remove.I decided to do that and give up DS MU cause it is VERY VERY rare and the forest is never as good as tropical ,tundra or volcanics.
Super Bizarros Team.
HUEHUEHUE BRBRBR. VIVA DILMA!!! EM NOME DE JESUS CRISTO!
What is the strategy for this deck when facing Suicide Black with immediate early disruption? I find it difficult to face a turn 1 Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn, followed by a turn 2 Confidant backed by Wastelands for my duals and Smothers for almost all my creatures (I play the 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 RWM, 2 Trygon creature set-up with NO/Progenitus). I know that a resolved Counterbalance and Top is usually game if you can get a two-mana card to keep on top of the deck (it practically shuts down everything they have), but getting to that point can be extremely difficult. It's as if every card in Suicide is there to screw over something in our deck, one-to-one, that is much more devastating for us.
I play Spell Pierce in the SB, which is helpful against disruption. If your meta has a lot of Sui Black, maybe SB some Divert or Compost.
in the situation you describe you should lose the game every time. its a product of the match up, control decks will in the game of magic generally lose when the aggro deck has its dream hand. this is just part of the metagame triangle of aggro/control/combo. so if your opponent draws every good card in their deck in the correct order as described above you will lose almost every time.
by playing this deck you are making a conscious decision that sui black can blow you out, then you make card choices which make the match up more manageable, not unloseable but more manageable when they don't have their god hand. nothing else you can do besides that. my point is if your plan is to try and find a way to beat sui or decks like it when they have 7/7 hands you should not be playing CB/Top.
What is better a reactive or proactive answer?
In terms of utility, Tarif pretty much does nothing against most decks that run the beast. Survival builds (BGW in particular) that run the NO package will have Seized/Cabal Therapied you multiple times before you have the chance to use the card. It's better to get rid of the threat altogether preemptively. Extract can do that for us. It's also an auto-win card in the ANT, ANT/DD Hybrid MU's and is also pitchable to Force (not that it needs to be mentioned).
On Firespout:
If you're concerned about it's versatility, run Engineered Explosives. Slightly weaker against Goblins/Merfolk, but it's golden against Zoo, the mirror, Tomb/Chalice decks and Aggro-Loam.
This isn't the mean point of discussion.
Firespout is played against ordes of Goblin, Merfolks, Zoo basically.
E. E. versus Goblin e Merfolks (expecially the first) is often a shit card.
It would be better to run EE as a SB card to be brought in for said MU's.
I disagree. It makes entirely more sense to run EE main and Firespout SB unless you know your meta is overflowing with swarm aggro. EE is incredibly more versatile and is relevant in considerably more matchups. Firespout out of the board is an easy supplement to your strategy against swarm aggro. Against Goblins/Merfolk, EE can hit Aether Vial, which can otherwise cause you a lot of headaches not answerable by Firespout. Also, good players won't over-extend in the face of a Volcanic Island on the board. Firespout has become such universal hate for Zoo/Goblins/Merfolk that the metagame will shift to ways to combat it or play around it, likely in the near future.
I'm not saying playing Firespout main is wrong, it's proven to be a winning strategy, I just prefer to play it sideboard with EE maindeck.
This is the build I'm testing. It has a 2/2 split of firespout and EE. Given that the local meta is very new and unknown, I wanted a mix of removal.
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3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Island
3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trygon Predator
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Firespout
@Misplayer
You've got a point. I'd like to add that the Montreal metagame is still rampant with Goblins and Fish. If EE were to be maindecked, we would be ill equipped to get rid of all of Goblin, Merfolk and Zoo's creatures (minus Goyf/Thoctar) like Firespout would. If aggro is lacking in your meta, by all means run EE as a 3 of with Academy Ruins.
I personally do not run any EE's main, but I do run Pithing Needles so as to have an answer to Vial, EE , Plainswalkers and manlands in the appropriate MU game 1.
@Meddling Pimp
After looking at your decklist, there are a few thing which I think need changing. First of all, why is SDT only a 3 of? Do you have some way of fetching it out? This deck creates no real card advantage outside of have CB+Top on the board or wiping 2-3 creatures w/ Firespout (in your case EE + Firespout). Not only that, it has no real way to filter its draw without the help of SDT. SDT should always be a 4 of, so as to maximize the chance of assembling the softlock/improving card quality.
Personally, I would cut all of the Stifles before losing a single SDT. How are you supposed to capitalize on that card (stifle)? How are you getting tempo from it's use? Sure, you'll be able to Stifle that fetch or that EE activation but, does it improve your bad MU's at all? Hell, does it really affect your good ones either?
Maybe going -3 Stifle, +1 SDT, +2 Spell Snare could work out for you.
As for the 2/2 EE/Firespout split, I think it's an acceptable compromise.
I would like to note that all Supreme Blue (and Bant, for that measure) lists have an inherent problem that people need to deal with, rather than debate Firespout again: the number of 2-costs.
Now, I don't want to turn this thread into a math holywar so I'm not going to provide any calculations to back this up, but appealing to experience of successful CT players and builds I would say that you want to have at least 14 2-costs in your deck to be able to reliably find one when you set up SDT+CB.
Recent UGW/x builds apprearing here and there go to as low as 11 2-costs and that is risky.
I can see people arguing in support of 11-12 2-costs by saying "you have fetchlands and top to find them". While that is understandable it still doesn't make the number any more reliable and not being able to find a 2-drop immediately after setting up a CBT is a very bad spot to be in.
I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?
If the meta is Unknow, I suggest you to play Baseruption instead of Supreme Blu, a deck that do the better things in a ''standard aggro/combo'' metagame.
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