Thanks Taco, I will try Fleshbag Marauder out. I've got to say though that it seems underwhelming as I can kill Tombstalker with BGH; I don't imagine there will be many Metalworkers floating around; if I'm searching for removal for Nimble Mongoose, I can just grab a Tarmogoyf and block; and if Progentius is in play, there's a good chance that there will be sac fodder as well. On the other hand, I've always found non-targeting removal to be useful in some capacity (I used to play Edict in my wishboard when I ran Burning Wish), and I can only guess it will be better since it leaves behind a 3/1. Also, maybe some reanimator decks will show up, edicts are usually good vs. them.
Also, I think that my board will be:
+3 Krosan Grip
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Lets try one more discussion topic. Birds of Paradise vs Noble Noble Hierarch in blueless builds.
Birds of paradise are a staple of Survival decks since its beginning. Occasionally they were replaced by elves or removed due to bad anty-synergy with Deed, but until Noble Hierarch arrived there was no serious competition for that slot.
The main advantage of Hierarch, that his secondary ability is much more relevant when you are playing without survival on the board. It allows us to break through when we are going for the kill-with-goyfs route. Occasionally she will swing for some damage on her own, but whats more important is the flexibility she provides to our beats.
The obvious downside is her limited ability to produce mana. Lack of red is hardly noticeable, as even 4c builds run red mostly for Anger. Occasionally cards like Stingscourger, Bloodbraid Elf or Magus of the moon pop up, but all in all this is a minor drawback (or maybe it is relevant, when trying to land Magus vs 43 lands wastelocking you?). Her inability to produce black mana is however of much greater concern. Between discard, deeds, recurring nightmare, removal creatures and hate cards black can easily be needed to cast over 1/3rd of your spells. On a very rare occasion you won't be able to chump block Tombstalker as well.
Finally an answer 'neither' seems to be getting more and more love with rockish builds. With deeds in play Veteran Explorers and Sakura-Tribe Elders are very good candidates to take Bop place.
So, which of the two cards do you think fits better with which Survival builds? Is there any sense in going for, say, 3/1 split? Being able to pick up Hierarch might be crucial at times, but than again if you want an exalted guy, Pridemage would be a better choice. Maybe with those two it is worth it to run more than 4 'birds'? Or maybe their time is over, and there is no place for such vulnerable mana sources in survival decks?
We should also discuss AEther Vial, which seems to replace BoP/Hierarch in some build or complements them.
Vial: I read a lot of good things about Vial but whenever I tried it I was not satisfied with it. It was awesome in some games but it also sucked very often. The biggest problem was just having not enough creatures to use Vial with when I didn't have a Survival on the table. Another problem was that Tarmogoyfs are cheap anyway and so I could have just casted the Goyfs instead.
BoP vs Hierarch: It is hard to say in general, it certainly depends on how deep the deck is into black so I'd say it depends on the individual deck.
A 3/1 split between Hierarch and Bird can be very useful. Birds produce Black and can block a Tombstalker, Sea Drake with Sword of Fire and Ice or a Marit Lage token. So if usually Hierarch is better but the difference in power level is so small that it is outclassed by the possibility to tutor a Bird then the split is right.
The biggest problem of this is if you Top8 and your list gets posted somewhere where comments are allowed. Then you better don't read those comments because people are usually dumb and will only talk about the singleton Bird and the BS they say will make you want to bang your head against a wall.
Vial can be pretty dead sometimes. It also dies to explosives. What are people's thoughts on Flametongue and deed? Are they still viable?
Survival of the Fittest - 'natural selection', or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life.
I guess between 4 stps, 4 thoughtseizes, 3 therapies, 4 Survivals and maybe some Pernicious Deeds / Recurring Nightmares there is very little space for more non creature cards. Vial is probably good in meta with a lot of counters, but very often I have found myself in a situation, when I needed to wait to topdeck a creature after I have landed a survival.
Majority of builds I have seen, which use black, are equally deep into black. They run 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Cabal Therapy, 1 or 2 of (BGH/Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Marauder), 0-3 enchantments (Deed, Recurring Nightmare), and maybe 1 or 2 tech cards. Plus sideboard sometimes containing Engineered Plague, Extirpate and/or Graveyard Hate.
That seems to be a case for both 2c/3c/4c SA, Rock Survivals or RecSurs. TBH though I am not quite positive I understand what is the difference between SA and RockSur those days, the lists differ only in inclusion of Deed. Julian list from two pages ago seems to be the only which differs some more from 4c build posted by Tacosnape on page 58.
I don't quite get it. If two cards have a similar power level and neither of them is plain better in your build isn't it always better to run a split? Since they are equally good for you (probably one is better in some matchups and onther in other) then they are all in all equally good when you draw them. When you do have a survival on board however, the split offers you a greater flexibility...
Kavu is still the best spot removal red has to offer. I think the problem is that red just doesn't have enough good cards to offer that would warrant going deep red. And in multicolor build he is just inferior to black spot removal guys.
As for deed - it seems extremely popular in recent top8 builds on deckcheck.
@Space for non-creature:The point in survival build is that you are limited in non-creature spells 'coz you need between 19-22 lands and 20+ creatures. So you have 21 slot max for non-creature (for a "RockSur" as they call it). You play white -> 4StP, Black ->6-7 discard (3 seize/3 therapy is what i play now), then 4 survival. You have 6 slots now for other card that will be strictly better than any creature. I can see two ways:
-you play 19 lands 4 vial and 23 creatures (with vial you want more creatures)
-you play 21-22 lands, 2-3 Deed maybe 1 recurring nightmare and 20 creatures
@BoP vs Noble: For me it's easy, after lot of tests BoP is really better if you play Black or Red and Hierarch is better if you play Bant. If you play Bant you have other flying guys (Wonder, predator,...) if you play Black or Red you need some flyers, BoP produces your mana and flies.
@Best creature-removal-creature:it's hard to say which creature is better between, Shriekmaw, BGH and Fleshbag. I play shriekmaw because it kills the creature you want(fleshbag not always), goes to graveyard (BGH you have to kill it) and cost 1B (fleshbag cost 1 more). I think they all are good but BGH alone is not enough. Fleshbag is great but...
@Deed:it's just the best empty board-removal for this deck. If you had a survival on, you can fetch a Witness and a Genesis so you will recover fast. You can empty hand with discard then crack the deed for the win. A must have tool for good "RockSur"
Fleshbag is terrible. Gatekeeper of malakir is a lot better.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
No. BBB is nearly impossible.
BBB is not that hard to get. Birds along with 8 fetches should make it pretty easy. I know I never had a problem with it.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
IMO Gatekeeper puts way to much stress on the mana base, unless you are running (really) heavy black and swamps.
Maybe in pure GB build, but if you bring in white or Anger, it is impossible to get it in any reasonable time.
In my opinion, Survival, as in RGBSA is no longer viable. Pure G/b is not really strong enough as you don't really get enough toolbox creatures. Splashing white is the only way to compete currently, and I still don't see it as very competetive. In the G/b/w version, it is a much more removal heavy build. I have mostly black mana for that splash.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
Cutting white is a big issue... you'll lose the best 1cc removal in StP. You can try to compensate and play X shriekmaw+BGH+Fleshbag but you'll never get the same effect as StP (with witness it's too good).
@Gatekeeper: Forget it, you play survival, so you need GREEN mana as much as possible. Another point is that it does not go to the graveyard and will be less usefull than a shriekmaw or marauder.
You obviously didn't even read my post. I played a G/b/w splash for a while. I played swords in this build. I also played 8 fetches, 4 bayous and 4 birds. This makes it pretty easy to cast BBB. Keeping a creature on the battlefield is mor important in today's meta game than most other things.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
The triple black still isn't going to be worth it. That makes Gatekeeper marginally castable if you encounter no disruption. And every time you fetch a Savannah or a basic, you're further away from this.
Additionally, Fleshbag Marauder's dual sacrifice ability can actually be a benefit, as it allows you to kill your own creatures to recur them with Witness/Genesis. The most common target for this? Fleshbag Marauder itself. Midgame Genesis-Marauder softlocks are solid.
+1 Taco. If you focus on getting BBB you'll miss half the time the W i guess. Marauder is really great, but i still prefer the shriekmaw costing 1 less and you can target.
@beastman: for sure i did understand what you were saying, but IMHO BBB is really to much for this deck, you fear Wasteland, Stifle, Bolt, Fire/Ice, if you plan to have 3 bayou or 1 birds and 2 bayou i think you hope too much never face a Canadian. Well if in your testing Gatekeeper is better and you never miss your 3rd Black mana it's ok for you. In my testing you'll almost never get the 3rd Black mana, you'll fetch basic, your birds gets fired or your bayou gets Wastelanded. The biggest point is that Survival need a lot of mana, especially Green...
Beastman keeps saying that Survival isn't competitive in the current meta. Is this a common belief? If so, what are the reasons for this? It was a DTW just a couple months ago, what has happened since then that makes the deck less viable?
Is Julian23's list (Wuascht Survival) a better pick in the current meta?
As a side note, what does Wuascht mean?
The reason I don't believe it is not very competitive is that counterbalance decks have really dide out a great deal. Zoo, merfolk, and combo decks are starting to crop up everywhere. Zoo, you can beat, but only if the deck is tailored specifically around beating it. At the point where you can consistently beat zoo and merfolk, the deck hardly looks like a survival deck anymore, and in tailoring your deck to beat those two decks, I have found that you lose the ability to beat all the fringe decks that you will undoubtedly face in a tournament.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
Wuascht = Wurst, means sausage. But "Es ist wuascht" can also mean "It doesn't matter"
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