[Deck] Burn

[Curby]

Board leverage? Are you serious? When did burn ever have board leverage? The entire point of burn is to avoid the board and go straight for the dome. Lava Spike is therefore a boon because it reminds us of our goals, rather than chasing distractions.

[snackfu]

Board leverage? Are you serious? When did burn ever have board leverage? The entire point of burn is to avoid the board and go straight for the dome. Lava Spike is therefore a boon because it reminds us of our goals, rather than chasing distractions.

Exactly. This is also the reason Grim Lavamancer has been rejected for this deck. It is too slow and it makes our opponent's removal, which was previously dead, usable again. That negates our virtual card advantage. Keldon Marauders gets around this by dealing two damage regardless.

I have tried the deck with Hellspark Elementals and they are decent. I ran 3 of them. Since we typically have no board presence, our opponents rarely, if ever, will sit back with blockers. The fact that it is reusable is what makes it better than spark elemental and ball lightning. Plus, it helps spread out our converted mana costs so we don't make chalice any more of an autoloss than it already is. Although it does, to some extent, validate removal.

[Curby]

More: Barb Ring and Lavamancer definitely do not belong in the same deck, and the singleton Fallout is too random. If you want uncounterable burn, then use more. If you want to sweep creatures, then use more. Otherwise, just use 3-drops that do four damage and double your damage output in that slot.

@snackfu: The point is not reusability but rather raw damage output, and inefficient plays are inefficient no matter how many times you use them, which is why we don't use Grove with Punishing Fire. Ball Lightning is actually superior because 3 trampling damage means very little against modern Legacy creatures. Almost any deck with creatures can absorb a 3/1 Trampler till the end of time, but a 6/1 Trampler is much harder to absorb with creatures. The longer the game goes, the bigger opposing creatures get, and the less effective 3/1s become. Unearth is horrible here: by definition it's Unearthed turn 3 at the earliest, when it's almost certainly going to bounce off a meat wall.

In short: you can pay 4 mana to play and unearth the Elemental. You'll face removal/blocking at least once, so being very optimistic, let's say you actually connect with 3 out of those 6 damage. If that card was an Incinerate instead, you would have spent half the mana for the same outcome. If that card was a Flame Javelin, you would have spent less mana for more damage. It just doesn't work.

It's odd that you remember why Grim Lavamancer was discarded, but you don't remember that Spark and Hellspark were discussed and discarded as well. In fact, if reusability is so important, Lavamancer does it a lot better...

[snackfu]

If you play in a world of all big creatures, then yes, Hellspark is poor.

However, not everyone runs zoo all the time. Forcing a thresh player to sit back with a Tarmogoyf seems ok, too. Not necessarily ideal, but not the worst thing, either.

I wouldn't be so quick to completely disregard the reusability of Hellspark. With Ball lightning, a simple edict, Lightning Bolt, hell, even Lava Dart ends the threat. Hellspark comes back for another go around. And it helps keep us from running out of gas, which absolutely can be a problem with this deck.

Hey, I'm not advocating that Hellspark is the end-all, but it seems like the constant debate in this deck is what to add in the two drop spot. Some people use Incinerate because it is always 3 burn. Some always use POP in a developed metagame because there are tons of non-basics. Some use Hellspark because it can, in some situations, give reach depending on the metagame. Plus, the uncounterability of unearth can be useful, too.

Run whatever you want, but Hellspark is not as terrible as you are making it out to be. It is certainly a debatable slot, I will agree with that.

I have used it and it does work, depending on the metagame.

[yankeedave]

Here in the UK, we have an emergent metagame, which involves a lot of dredge and basic lands, so I find that I have moved two PoP to the sideboard and running 4 Hellspark and 2 Ball Lightning against Dredge can ruin their day Game 1. Hellspark often finds the player as well, as very few people play Walls and who is going to sit on defence against Burn, unless its game 2 or 3, in which case, if they are playing defence, you aren't feeling the pressure!

I also totally agree with the variable of mana costs, as I beat Tezz Stax at the weekend after a turn 1 Chalice at 1 both games, the first due to my varied curve and the second due to Shusher out of the board!

This deck has no BEST layout, only what you find works for you. There are about 10 slots that are most likely changable for your own meta and tastes. Why argue like school children about these slots? Play what you want and test everything!

[Curby]

Not sure what to say, as you haven't really countered my arguments. Yes it's true that not everyone runs zoo, but most decks run creatures and answers to creatures. They run nastier creatures than 3/1s and answers for creatures nastier than a 3/1. The newfound popularity doesn't make Hellspark bad, as it was always bad. But this shift makes Hellspark even worse.

When I said that the card doesn't work, I meant that there are better options. In your experience, how much damage would Hellspark do on average? I doubt it would do more than 2 damage on average each time it saw play (hardcast or Unearth), which again makes Incinerate and Flame Javelin better. In what meta is Hellspark Elemental usable, and even in that environment is it honestly better than the common alternatives?

I get that you're not saying Hellspark is the best option, but I still don't see how it can ever be more effective than other options. If it guaranteed its 3 damage then sure a reusable Incinerate would be awesome.

@yankeedave: We argue about card choices because we are trying to improve the deck in a collaborative manner. Hopefully we aren't arguing like children though. =) It's interesting that you say it's good against Dredge, and I can see the appeal with losing a creature to burn Bridges, but I'd still recommend Ball Lightning as the damage density is higher. How many 3-drops (other than Rift Bolt) do you run? What's a typical list?

For those who insist on running more creatures than Marauders, I'd take a look at including a couple Reckless Charges. It often gives its full 3 damage and is particularly useful with Marauders where it gives 6 damage for one red (extra attack plus pump). It's a risky move when facing removal, but using creatures without guaranteed damage is risky to begin with.

[yankeedave]

@yankeedave: We argue about card choices because we are trying to improve the deck in a collaborative manner. Hopefully we aren't arguing like children though. =) It's interesting that you say it's good against Dredge, and I can see the appeal with losing a creature to burn Bridges, but I'd still recommend Ball Lightning as the damage density is higher. How many 3-drops (other than Rift Bolt) do you run? What's a typical list?

Well, I run quite a controversial list, at least by the standards of this forum. i have played this deck since about 2004, and it has slowly evolved over the years. Here's my list:

18 Mountain

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Lava spike
4 Rift bolt
2 Shard Volley
2 Price of progress
4 Magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Javelin

4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Ball Lightning

SB:

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Price of Progress
2 Tormod's Crypt

So, this is the list I played in the Madrid GPT on Sunday, to what should have been a top 4 place, but I ID'd in the 4th round and missed out on tie-breakers! I played out the 4th round match for fun, as it was against a mate playing dredge. He didn't like the elementals in the deck, as it was maindeck hate! I wiped out his Bridges early and he had to play around the Hellsparks for the rest of the game.

I have been thinking recently that I will replace a Flame Javelin with another Mountain, but I am not sure. I will have to look into this with further testing.

As I said in my previous post, test everything, and I have played the Keldon Marauders on and off for quite a while now. I prefer the Hellsparks, as people can forget that they are in the GY and leave themselves open for an attack. Its a personal choice, as I understand the strengths of the Marauders, I just like the hasty little fire balls! I suppose, if I were to take this to the GP, I would think about changing it up again!

Dave

[FoulQ]

@ yankeedave, how do you feel about Rhox War Monk? Is Flame Javelin a decent answer to him? Are we forced to answer him?

He is very popular and I think he makes running flame javelin a much more attractive than it used to be.

[Curby]

@yankeedave, thanks. I love the 2 Shard Volleys, I have maindecked two ever since they were printed. I would highly recommend the 19th land, as 18 is too few and ends up forcing too many 0-land and 1-land mulligans (see second paragraph under "Land Count" here). The Fireblasts and Shard Volleys allow me to more easily use Barbarian Rings, which allow some of my land to be more functional, get around countermagic, get around protection, etc. Your deck has 6 more 3-drops than my current list, which is further reason to run another land. In fact, I'm considering adding a few Flame Javelins to my current list and running a 17/3 split of land.

@FoulQ Lifegain and discard effects are among the most effective creature abilities to use against us. Protection is bad for our sweepers, but we generally go for the dome anyway. Each swing with a RWM negates a spell of ours, so it could be considered roughly equivalent to an attack from a bigger Hypnotic Specter. Dangerous indeed. (This is why Jitte is also so powerful against burn if it gets online in time.)

[yankeedave]

@FoulQ - RWM is a pain in the arse, and it is one of the few critters I will aim a spell at. The only other one I can think of is a first striker when I want to get an elemental thru! And maybe a Hyppie, but I spend so long in topdeck mode, that against Sui, I tend to play everything I draw as a sorcery! :)

@kirbysdl - Thanks! I have never used Barb ring, never had any and as I have always played in aggressive format where any self harm (like Char et al) always hurts me more than them. Its only as our meta improves that I am considering them. How have they been for you? The idea of getting around COP:Red and Chill is very tempting!

And I will defo be testing the extra land. I have been seeing a lot of hands that I had to throw back for little to know land recently, so I think its a good move.

I love Flame Javelin, it makes for some very nice finishes, as Turn 4, if you aim a Flame Javelin at a control players head, it will usually take them into Bolt range. Once they have countered that, I can hopefully finish them off with Bolt into Fireblast or Double FB. Its maybe not a card to run as a 4 of, but I wouldn't ever discount it!

[Curby]

The only other one I can think of is a first striker when I want to get an elemental thru!

Exactly what I'm talking about: you're going to use a perfectly good burn spell that could have gone straight to the dome to kill a blocker so that your burn spell on feet can get through. I'd rather remove the feet and send 6 to the dome directly. Sure, you can bring the Elemental back for up to 3 more damage, but you've already spent that 3 damage clearing a path for the Elemental the first time around.

I apologize if everyone else is getting sick of me harping on Elementals, but even proponents see cases in which they need support from other cards, and dependencies reduce consistency. If a third of the field is Dredge, then I can see the appeal, but I'd probably maindeck graveyard hate and/or use Mogg Fanatic, which can stick around pinging for 1 a turn while you wait for the best time to blow the Bridges.

How have they been for you? The idea of getting around COP:Red and Chill is very tempting!

Wasteland can be an issue, getting stuck on two B Rings in the opener can lead to a lot of self-hurt, and it slightly reduces the consistency of Fireblast. I wouldn't call it a staple like Lightning Bolts because you probably only want 2-3 and they only activate later in the game. That said, it's not difficult for us to get Thresh by the end of the game, and along with Volcanic Fallout they can help push damage through countermagic for the kill.

[kicks_422]

Why not maindeck all 4 Price of Progress? Are there any monocolored decks that will beat Burn with 4 dead cards in the MD?

[Koby]

Fish beats Burn pretty consistently.

[kicks_422]

Fish? As in merfolk Fish? They have burn (or anything with red, in general) as one of their worst match-ups. Or at least, that's what I remember from reading that thread before. Has that changed?

[FoulQ]

I think merfolk vs burn is about even, from my experiences.

When I was speaking of flame javelin, I was sort of thinking that the card is good because it can kill RWM, and with 4 in yankeedave's list you can sort of reliably kill RWM (well, at least more than the usual....shit game over).

[Koby]

Does anyone here actually playtest any of the decks you guys are discussing? Fish, as in Merfolk but not limited to it, is just as fast or faster than burn. The only spell you need worry about is the lethal one which gives you a lot of leeway in gaining momentum. In the meantime, you get lords out to pump your team and just attack attack attack. Standstill also doesn't help matters as they can just put it out with 1 guy out and come out ahead.

[Ozymandias]

The classic archetype diagram also works for this example. Aggro-control's best matchup is combo, because you stop the key spells and win before they can recover. Burn is a combo deck, or at least gets beaten like one, and Merfolk, with Daze, Cursecatcher, Force, and Standstill, is Aggro-Control.

[yankeedave]

Well, I have a couple of Merfolk lists in my meta and it does seem a 50/50 battle, as they either stomp you or vice versa. There are very few wars of attrition in this matchup, and if they have a lot of counters, you can be screwed.

As for Standstill, someone told me years ago that you should always just break the Standstill asap, as you are gonna give them the cards anyways, so do it early and keep to your own game plan. You have the cards to win, you just have to make your plan and stick to it with counter decks. Merfolk is not a matchup I enjoy, but I do think it is winnable in my experience. Vexing Shusher and REB out of the board makes it easier and

@kicks422 – I generally draw between 11 and 15 cards in a match. With several new players to our meta, the number of basics has been painfully high. If I draw 2 PoP against them, my gameplan is slowed by two full turns. I don’t mind drawing one against these decks, but 2 is just way too lethal. As my metagame progresses, I will be changing my deck accordingly.

@kirbydsl – I completely understand your points regarding the Elementals, but I am struggling to find a replacement that is satisfactory. I am already running 18 Bolt effects, Incinerate and the rest. Do you have any ideas for replacements for my 6 Elemental slots that are good damage and not utility?

[Curby]

I think I posted above that Manamorphose is still usable. In fact, it's mostly better than even Street Wraith now that we don't mana burn. The hypotheticals go something like this:

Early in the game, you get your second land: cast Manamorphose and use the mana to burn. You effectively Cantrip for free
Topdecking, you cast Manamorphose and use the mana to cast whatever burn you drew.
Topdecking, you cast Manamorphose and draw a land. That sucks, but you would have had to deal with that land and had a dead turn at some point anyway.
You're beyond the first turn and can't cast Manamorphose: you're pretty much dead anyway as you're stuck on one land.

I'm pretty sure no one would waste a counterspell on a Manamorphose, right? If so, Ethersworn Canonist is the worst enemy of Manamorphose. It also makes Magma Jet worse as it's effectively Scry 1 instead of Scry 2 when you see a Manamorphose.

I'm even idly considering adding Lightning Helix, Manamorphose and some fetch/dual action (I know it's silly but I'm intrigued: as we all know there's not enough ideal burn).

[snackfu]

Just watched a burn player take second in a tournament and win a Bayou playing with a full set of Hellspark Elementals maindeck. He lost in the final to Merfolk because he got stuck with two Ingot Chewers in hand (to take out Jittes). However, the Merfolk player did not see one in game three, nor did he need to. The Lords can quickly get out of hand without any help from Umezawa.

Depending on the metagame, I have swapped out and sideboarded the PoPs.

I checked previous pages and nowhere did I find consensus about what should go in the final 4-8 slots. In fact, this is exactly what we should be debating. Perhaps we should start with what is set in stone and work from there?

Here is what I see as the core of the deck:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Price of Progress (In a developed metagame, I have run 3 with the fourth sideboarded at times)
4 Magma Jet
4 Keldon Marauders

3-4 Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout

4 Fireblast

What are the contenders for the final slots? I would say these would top the list:

Incinerate
Hellspark Elemental
Shard Volley
Flame Javelin
Sulfuric Vortex
Mogg Fanatic
Ball Lightning
Spark Elemental
Flame Rift

I think Sulfuric Vortex must appear somewhere between the maindeck and the sideboard. Flame Javelin also seems like the best answer to RWM.

My questions:
1. Is this the core of the deck, or am I missing something?
2. Are there any other relevant options for the final slots? I gathered these from what I have played, what I have seen played, and from the higher placing decklists on deckcheck.