[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

[Travy]

Hello there, I figured I would offer my input on this thread after playing in the tournament in Binghamton. To begin with, here is my list:

//Creatures [18]
3 Plated Slivers
4 Muscle Slivers
4 Sinew Slivers
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Winged Slivers

//Artifacts [7]
4 Aether Vial
3 Winter Orb

//Spells [17]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Thwart
4 Path to Exile

//Lands [18]
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard
4 Stifle
4 Harmonic Sliver
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Relic of Progenitus

I ended up going 3-4 before dropping. Of the matchs I lost 1 was to elves, 1 was to dark depths combo, 1 was to reanimator, and 1 was to some sort of planeswalker deck utilizing ajani/elspeth to stall out. Not sure of the archtype but I saw a few people playing it.

Every one of those matchs that I did lose was 2-1 and in the planeswalker and elf matchups I lost 1 of each of my rounds as a result of drawing only land. In the planeswalker match I literally ended up with every one of my lands in my hand/in play. The other issue with the planeswalker deck is that I didn't play aggressively enough first game. The Dark Depths game didn't see me drawing a solution to the 20/20 quick enough, I had managed to take care of the hexmage but he hard cast the 20/20... was pretty funny. And as for the reanimator game... well I had never quite played a deck like it, I am pretty sure it was some sort of homebrew... was neat though.

The matchs I won were to zoo, elves, and ad nausem combo. Zoo is essentially an auto-win post board, being able to counter and remove anything they play. Elves is a similar story, and ad nausem was a race with well placed counters.

Now for an explanation and analysis of my non-traditional card choices. Originally I was working on a g/w/u orb deck which had a different aggro base, I ended up trading it out for the sliver base and it worked brilliantly!

Winter Orbs - they won games. Especially in the control/combo match ups I played. With your slivers costing 2 and aether vials on your side the drawback really isn't there for you. In something like the zoo match-up you can side them out for more removal. Path to Exile is all ready pretty good in Legacy with the low basic land count (There were games I pathed and the opponent had no land to fetch) and couple it with Winter Orb and there really isn't a "drawback." I opted to run 1x Thwart as once again, it couples well with Winter Orb (Daze following along the same lines) and did win me a game.

While I don't know that I would have made it into the top 8 if I played better, I still feel that those couple of losses to mana flooding don't justify any form of negativity towards this decklist. The only card I really didn't like was daze, very rarely did it impact a game positively for me. I also did not have a full set of Misty Rainforests at my disposal which is why I ran Polluted Deltas instead.

I intend to keep playing with this deck, even the matchs I lost were enjoyable (mana flooding aside) Feedback would be great!

[gamegeek2]

I'd recommend Wasteland over Winter Orb.

[Travy]

I really am not a big wasteland fan, not in slivers at least. It will hit a single non-basic land... where as winter orb keeps them all down on 'lock.' There wasn't a single game the other day I would have preferred wasteland over winter orb. I feel it messes with tempo too much in the form of colorless mana/wasting a land drop. My best games were the games I saw just 2 lands, and adding waste lands in the hopes of seeing more lands... just don't like that idea.

[matamagos]

did stifle worked in the side? I'm not sure what kind of storm hate shoul I run and stifle has been always one of the possibilities.

[Travy]

Yeah, it won a game against the combo deck I played. I suppose it depends on the meta and how much combo is going around. From what I understood the meta for the tournament I went to was pretty up in the air so I packed hatred against things I really didn't want to race. Low mana cost and in colors is pretty good and if you can stifle them from going off once, chances are they aren't going to manage it the second time.

[Purgatory]

*Resurrecting from page 3*

Yeah, it won a game against the combo deck I played. I suppose it depends on the meta and how much combo is going around. From what I understood the meta for the tournament I went to was pretty up in the air so I packed hatred against things I really didn't want to race. Low mana cost and in colors is pretty good and if you can stifle them from going off once, chances are they aren't going to manage it the second time.

I've always found Stifle to be useless when it comes to actually stifling storm copies on Tendrils or Warrens (or Brain Freeze, though I rarely see that one nowadays). By the time they actually cast the storm spell, they have Duressed you so many times, you'd be happy to even have a hand at all. Ethersworn Canonist works in a more pro-active way, and once it's on the board, it'll take them time to get rid of it, since they can't search for a removal and play it the same turn.

The upside wtih Stifle is of course that it's really useful for stifling ANTs fetchlands the first couple of turns (although I never seem to have mana for it with Slivers) and it can also be useful combating Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed.

On an unrelated note:

This is a little thing I've been tinkering with lately. The sideboard is mostly experimental, though I'd like some feedback.

Slivers (18)
4 Sinew Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver

Other Stuff (24)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Jace Beleren
4 Force of Will
3 Living Wish
4 Aether Vial

Lands (18)
3 Mutavault
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
1 Talon Sliver
1 Gilded Drake
1 Winged Sliver
1 Yixlid Jailer
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 City of Brass
1 Maze of Ith

A hefty 9 cards in the wish part of the board might look like much, and the Macabres should probably be Crypts/Relics instead. Other options in the sideboard include Ethersworn Canonist and True Believer, just to name a couple.

Also, the one Jace in main is mostly a joke. Not sure what to replace him with though.

[Curby]

@Travy: PtE is not synergistic with Worb. We're not aggro enough to warrant the use of PtE anyway. Time and time again we've been shown that our critters barely stack up anymore: we have fewer lords and about the same evasion as Merfolk, fewer lords and explosiveness than Elves, and less raw power than Zoo. We're an aggro-control deck packing such things as Daze, which is also bad with PtE.

I agree that Wasteland doesn't belong. I'd use Mutavault first if I'm considering colorless land.

@Purgatory: It's interesting that you still use Hibernation, but I'd definitely put a Crystalline in the wishboard to have 6 in the maindeck. In fact, the wishboard seems a bit odd to me. Why Maze of Ith? You've got a wishable answer for Dreadnought already (though you could use more), and you can't use it on Progenitus.

How have you been using Medddling Mage? I'm not sure if it deserves to be such a big part of your board: you could have just one to wish for.

I like the idea of using wishes, but they typically haven't been a staple of countersliver: please let us know if the speed loss is worth the flexibility.

And yeah, Jace probably isn't worth it.

[troopatroop]

With the changes in combat from M10, Hibernation Sliver became terrible. Why play it now?

[Curby]

Well he still helps you save guys from point destruction and sweepers, and you can still block goyf for 2 life per swing, but it no longer lets you cheat the way it used to. For that reason, I dropped it and therefore dropped black. The 4-color manabase always gave me fits anyway, and is even worse with Mutavault. That said, if you still use it (and therefore black) I'd run Engineered Plague in the side, as Elves and Merfolk are still popular.

[Volt]

PtE can be used to supplement StP, but shouldn't replace it. Zoo is the only mainstream deck I know of that can justify playing Path instead of Plow.

Since being neutered by M10, Hibernation Sliver is really only useful against control decks that run Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives. Those decks aren't being played much right now.

Plated Sliver is like a half-lord for half the mana, which is really pretty good when you think about it. I definitely recommend it.

I'm not a fan of the Living Wish + wishboard plan. You're almost always going to want to Wish for a Crystalline, Muscle/Sinew, or Winged. So why not just play Eladamri's Call? It's instant speed, and doesn't require you to butcher your sideboard.

I play Countersliver only occasionally these days, and only at minor tournaments where I don't really care about trying to win every match. I usually go 3-1 or 2-2 and have fun playing the slivers, and that's good enough for a Sunday afternoon. For those times, here's the list I play:

2 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Eladamri's Call

SB:
3 Annul
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
3 Tormod's Crypt

[Curby]

I don't see why this deck is necessarily inferior these days. It's basically Merfolk with fewer utility lands, more colors, and a different complement of dudes.

It's basically less disruptive, more easily disrupted, and has worse creatures. Crystalline is obviously the best out of both tribes, but Merfolk has more lords and does more with them. Instead of just +1/+1 to all, they get to tap blockers, untap lands and Vials, and give two kinds of evasion. They're simply better creatures for both combat and utility.

I agree with Illissius 100% that if Merfolk can a DTB, so can Slivers. Slivers just needs to be more aggro and less aggro/control.

After which you recommend in a classic control deck card, Standstill, which would inevitably slow us down. Please let me know how we can be more aggressive with Slivers, because you certainly haven't done so yet.

Here's my take on the state of the deck. It deck started from Crystalline+8Muscle+Winged+Plated. Then it started using Hibernation, and the utility was worth weakening the manabase. Then Mutavault started being used, but they (effectively) took away Hibernation. 2-3 years later, all we can say that we've really gotten is Mutavault, while other decks are getting new tricks and entirely new designs, in addition to Mutavault. In other words, we're actually moving backwards with respect to the field. It's not to say that the deck can't win small tourneys and casual games, but you're increasingly dependent on having better skill than your opponents to counter the relative weakness of the deck, and the first rule of objective analysis is to assume you're playing against someone at least as good as you. I'm merely stating the obvious, but the quotes above indicate that common sense isn't all that common. Or more likely, they haven't the same experience with this particular deck.

[Purgatory]

Thanks for the input guys, and I'll report back on how the whole wishplan is doing.

Regarding Hibernation Sliver: Sure, it is not as good as it was pre-M10, but it can still do some tricks in combat (blocking anything not named Phyrexian Dreadnought or Terravore, and live to tell the tale) and it's useful against sweepers. Though I see less EE/Deed these days, a lot of people still board Pyroclasms and Firespots, which are almost as bad - since you need two lords on the field for the first to be neutered and three for the second.

On a side note, I rarely play MeatHooks anymore - when I go to tourneys I typically bring Canadian Thresh instead, as it has served me well when I'm trying to T8 something. The Slivers are still as fun to play though, and when I join my mates for a gaming night, I like to bring them along as well. :)

[Curby]

Thanks for the input guys, and I'll report back on how the whole wishplan is doing.

Regarding Hibernation Sliver: Sure, it is not as good as it was pre-M10, but it can still do some tricks in combat (blocking anything not named Phyrexian Dreadnought or Terravore, and live to tell the tale) and it's useful against sweepers. Though I see less EE/Deed these days, a lot of people still board Pyroclasms and Firespots, which are almost as bad - since you need two lords on the field for the first to be neutered and three for the second.

I'd say that using Plated along with 8 Sliverlords mostly negates things like Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, and the like, especially since our lords cost less than most others. Firespout and Flamebreak are problems though.

[Illissius]

It's basically less disruptive, more easily disrupted, and has worse creatures. Crystalline is obviously the best out of both tribes, but Merfolk has more lords and does more with them. Instead of just +1/+1 to all, they get to tap blockers, untap lands and Vials, and give two kinds of evasion. They're simply better creatures for both combat and utility.

This is basically what I said it comes down to: which has better creatures. Crystalline is so good that Merfolk sometimes runs Kira. LoA is like Muscle and Winged Slivers in one, so obviously that's amazing. I wouldn't be so sure that Muscle/Sinew are worse than Reejerey/Sovereign: the latter are 50% more expensive. And Plated is probably better than Cursecatcher. Silvergill Adept is sort of a wild card; I'd guess he's up there with the best as well. Overall, maybe Slivers is worse (given results, probably), but I don't think it's obviously so to the point where people should just give up and stop working on Slivers.

After which you recommend in a classic control deck card, Standstill, which would inevitably slow us down.

Merfolk doesn't play Standstill?

[Curby]

This is basically what I said it comes down to: which has better creatures.

But that's not what I said. We're less disruptive (fewer tricks in our critters) and more easily disrupted (multicolor manabase, flat mana curve of creatures). Merfolk can and do run pretty much every trick that we have (Stifle, StP, FoW), so in fact we need significantly better creatures than Merfolk in order to pull even.

LoA is like Muscle and Winged Slivers in one, so obviously that's amazing. I wouldn't be so sure that Muscle/Sinew are worse than Reejerey/Sovereign: the latter are 50% more expensive.

What you're saying totally makes sense if we can run 8 Muscles, as you counted them twice. The problem is we've got 2 lords and everyone else has 3-4 lords. So sure they're more expensive, but they do more and they exist more. Anyway, Reejery tricks help absorb the cost difference by untapping land and Vials. Just to reiterate the most important point: at least they exist and are an easy inclusion. Sedge Sliver is too conditional, Bonesplitter Sliver costs too much, and they're all off-color, which makes the problem of opposing disruption even worse if we consider their inclusion.

By the way, on its own Cursecatcher is probably worse than Plated Sliver. Along with maindeck Stifle, Daze, and Wasteland, he's an important piece in an increasingly annoying puzzle.

Merfolk doesn't play Standstill?

Yeah, but he was talking about making Slivers more aggressive, and a stalling card doesn't seem like the right way to get there. To be honest, this is a point that I'm a little uncertain on, but slowing down the game once you've gotten an advantageous board position seems to be a control deck move. How can we translate the inclusion of Standstill into better combat size/speed/tricks?

In the end, what's the best argument against the last paragraph of my post (the paragraph you didn't quote)? As of M10 we're going backwards, and others are going forwards. Without some real innovation, it's the same Crystalline/Muscle/Sinew/Plated/Winged combination of years ago. Given that Slivers has done reasonably well but not spectacularly well in the past, and given the lack of new tech, I don't see where the optimism is coming from. The only saving grace seems to be a newfound interest in aggro, and this deck had its roots in 8 maindeck answers to Lackey.

This was my first Legacy deck when I got back into Magic, and I'd love to see it prosper. But we need real developments instead of saying, "this deck should be competitive." Without the former, the latter are just empty dreams.

[Illissius]

We're less disruptive (fewer tricks in our critters) and more easily disrupted (multicolor manabase, flat mana curve of creatures). Merfolk can and do run pretty much every trick that we have (Stifle, StP, FoW), so in fact we need significantly better creatures than Merfolk in order to pull even.

The weaker manabase is the only true drawback out of these (which does have to be compensated for). The important bit is how good the creatures are, not why they're good (disruptive or otherwise); and while a lower manacurve makes us more vulnerable to Counterbalance and Chalice, being faster tends, otherwise, to be regarded as an advantage.

What you're saying totally makes sense if we can run 8 Muscles, as you counted them twice.

I wasn't actually counting here, just trying to get a general sense of how the various cards stack up with regards to quality.

The problem is we've got 2 lords and everyone else has 3-4 lords. So sure they're more expensive, but they do more and they exist more.

Yeah, Merfolk has three +1/+1 lords to Slivers' two. This is certainly true. That said, before Sovereign came around Merfolk was using Wake Thrasher, and I think the general reaction to Sovereign being printed from the Merfolk side was along the lines of, "eh, well, I guess it might be better than Thrasher", and not "oh yay! we get another lord!". So I don't think fixating on this point is necessarily useful.

By the way, on its own Cursecatcher is probably worse than Plated Sliver. Along with maindeck Stifle, Daze, and Wasteland, he's an important piece in an increasingly annoying puzzle.

We're only interested in looking at cards in-context here. (For the record, on its own Cursecatcher -- a 1/1 with a useful ability -- is actually better than Plated Sliver, a 1/2 without one.) But if Cursecatcher in the context of an actual Merfolk deck is a better card than Plated Sliver in the context of a Slivers deck, then for our purposes it's a better card, period. Is it?

Yeah, but he was talking about making Slivers more aggressive, and a stalling card doesn't seem like the right way to get there. To be honest, this is a point that I'm a little uncertain on, but slowing down the game once you've gotten an advantageous board position seems to be a control deck move. How can we translate the inclusion of Standstill into better combat size/speed/tricks?

Whether we make Slivers more aggressive or not is sort of besides the point. The basic idea was that the two decks are so similar in concept -- cheap synergistic blue creatures backed up by disruption and Vial -- that you could basically take a Merfolk deck, swap out the Merfolk for Slivers, and end up with something similar in power level. Maybe Slivers has an edge due to Crystalline; maybe Merfolk has an edge due to LoA and a stabler manabase. But both decks run cheap creatures, Vial, and Mutavault, so if Standstill works in one deck it seems logical that it should work in the other. And Merfolk is having some success, so odds are they're doing something right and we would do well to copy them.

In the end, what's the best argument against the last paragraph of my post (the paragraph you didn't quote)? As of M10 we're going backwards, and others are going forwards. Without some real innovation, it's the same Crystalline/Muscle/Sinew/Plated/Winged combination of years ago.

I don't care so much about the past or the future, this was an argument about the present. If/when Wizards prints more top-quality Merfolk, while neglecting Slivers (which seems likely, but then you wouldn't have predicted them ever printing more Slivers before they went and did so -- twice), then Slivers will gradually fall behind, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Given that Slivers has done reasonably well but not spectacularly well in the past, and given the lack of new tech, I don't see where the optimism is coming from.

It's not so much optimism as "hey, we're nearly the same deck, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to do at least nearly as well if we wanted to". To be more explicit, the hypothesis is that Slivers has been held back because we were building it wrong, and if we build it more like Merfolk then it'll do better. If that's tried and ends up failing then I guess you can conclude that Slivers is just plain worse.

[Volt]

Whether we make Slivers more aggressive or not is sort of besides the point. The basic idea was that the two decks are so similar in concept -- cheap synergistic blue creatures backed up by disruption and Vial -- that you could basically take a Merfolk deck, swap out the Merfolk for Slivers, and end up with something similar in power level. Maybe Slivers has an edge due to Crystalline; maybe Merfolk has an edge due to LoA and a stabler manabase. But both decks run cheap creatures, Vial, and Mutavault, so if Standstill works in one deck it seems logical that it should work in the other. And Merfolk is having some success, so odds are they're doing something right and we would do well to copy them.

Standstill works better with Merfolk for the simple reason that Merfolk can afford to run more colorless lands (i.e. Mutavaults and Wastelands). Meathooks can't function with only 12 or 13 color-lands. 15 is the bare minimum you can get away with. I have tested the hell out of Standstill, and I can definitively state that Ponder is a much better card for this deck.

[Purgatory]

After doing some testing today, I just want to say that while I do enjoý the flexibility of Living Wish, they make it hard to keep up with some decks (tested against Loam, GoyfSligh, Affinity, Burn and Blue Stax). I also found myself getting Harmonic Sliver more than anything else in the side, so I'm thinking about going back to just playing Eladamri's Call and maindeck one of the buggers. What bothers me in that case is that I'd probably have to drop black all-together, and Hibernation Sliver is just too good to give up in my eyes.

When I got bored with the Wishbuild's sluggishness, I also tried a more aggressive approach, and just cut Standstill/Ponder/Wish altogether and played more creatures. While I tried it mainly for fun, it really changed the entire focus of most of the games and suddenly I was aggro in all matchups, as I only used my FoW/Dazes to counter one or two relevant spells and then put them on a 3-4 turn clock. I had to be a lot more careful with my opening hands, since it plays mostly off of them. I'm seriously considering replacing StP with PtE and have a spin with them. An additional basic land on their side is usually not a big deal, since I'm not playing tempo thresh. The idea was just to put down an army (3-4) of slivers and swing for the fences, and in that case, StP feels more counter-productive than PtE. In most games I really didn't need the spot removal though since I could race anything not named Terravore. All in all, it did surprisingly well.

I'm not quite ready to share a list though, I will get back with a revised version of the Wishlist soon enough however.

[Curby]

I see what you mean, but say we try to emulate Merfolk: I still maintain that the manabase isn't the only problem we have. Perhaps I've been playing Death and Taxes too much, but I love the idea of multifunctional deck components.

The land in Merfolk provides mana, attacks, and disrupts. Ours can only do the first two, and due to the multicolor requirements it does so less consistently. The creatures in Merfolk do what ours do, but they also act as Dazes, Cantrips, and Twiddles. When we get multiple evasion providers, we groan and wish they were more pumpers. When Merfolk gets multiple evasive critters, they smile as they're also pumpers. Oh sure we can pitch multiples to FoW, but so can they.

By the way, when talking about moving backwards after M10, I meant the nerfing of Hibernation due to rules changes and I am in fact talking about the present. And regardless of the usability of new Merfolk, at least they are being printed and they allow for new ideas. The bridge you mentioned is actually a series of bridges, being crossed with every new set that includes Merfolk.

When you're behind and you want to win, you don't just mimic the person in the lead, you have to fix or overcome the fundamental flaws that put you in the rear to begin with.

[Illissius]

I'd like to examine the mana question more closely. (Volt: is 15 as a bare minimum because of Wasteland, or even in a vacuum?)

Slivers has three colors, Merfolk has one or two. Their mana curves are broadly similar, though Merfolk has several 3 mana spells whereas Slivers does not. Merfolk has one, possibly two cards which require more than a single colored mana: LoA and Sovereign. Slivers has only one: Crystalline Sliver. There is not a card in the deck you can't cast with any two out of Tundra, Tropical Island, and Savannah.

I'm not saying we can run as many colorless lands as Merfolk. But maybe we can get close.

Again, I'm thinking about something along these lines:

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 flex slot, probably Daze, likely needs to be blue

4 Aether Vial
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah

Appraising the various options, looking at the important things, it's something like this:

Monoblue Merfolk
+ Lord of Atlantis
+ Silvergill Adept
+ stable manabase

U/w Merfolk
+ Lord of Atlantis
+ Silvergill Adept
+ Swords to Plowshares

Slivers
+ Crystalline Sliver
+ Swords to Plowshares
- not as stable manabase

(Not all + and - are created equal, obviously.)