Also Finn looking at your OP, in the second build that is an unbelievably high amount of red hate in the sb. Expecting a format of 100% burn/sligh is absolutely ludicrous.
He doesn't update that... in fact the last update took about 15 pages of the thread just screaming at him that the deck really needs a good primer to get a change.Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
And that was during the transition of Merfolk being a "LOL He's playing merfolk" deck to "shit I have blue in my deck, I scoop" deck.
So good luck on that.
still waiting on that good primer...
What do you guys think is the optimal number of lands in this deck?
I currently run 19 (3 Muta, 4 Waste, 12 Island).
It's nice to not draw lands after my opening hand but I seem to mulligan alot. I have considered adding 1 more Island OR 1 more Mutavault but I'm not sure yet.
Of course I update it. Every time there is a consensus change in opinion, the information gets an update. And I reckon that is more than most OPs get.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Hi there,
I am currently testing the following list as I am searching for a deck for GP Madrid.
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MOR] Mutavault
13 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
// Creatures
4 [7E] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze
2 [4E] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
Let my explain my choices. The explanaitions might also contribute to the discussions which are already up in this thread.
21 lands: As I play 2 counterspell I need 2 islands. And I also consider Wasteland as 1/2 land because usually its ld. For the games I made, I was really satisfied with this number of lands. Its also possible to board 1 out if the curve gets decreased a lot after sb.
3 Wake Trasher: I really like a 5/5 - 6/6 attacking guy without any other folks on the board. Only with a loa on the board you can vial eot and say gg if the opponent plays islands. I think its just a very strong card, even on its own.
No Souvereign: I really dont have slots for 12 lords and I also do not want to put to much fish in cc3. I think 8 lords and 3 wake trasher is better then 12 lords and no wake trasher. But what I really think about: Is merfolk souvereign in combination with 3 wake trasher probably better then reejereey? What do you think?
Echoing Truth and Counterspell: I want to have a solution to resolved issues and I want to have some more counters. I know Counterspell is a little bit unusual but I think its inclusion might be a good idea. I also think about - 2 Counterspell - Island + 3 Stifle. What would you suggest?
Concerning the Sideboard I think there are no many things to discuss. I play submerge because in my opinion its more versatile then mind harness. (Also good vs. eva green for example, where mind harness does nothing vs tombstalker or confidant. Threads of disloyalty is not an option for me as I see issues with having 2x blue regularly when you need them.
What I would like to discuss furthermore:
Is Jitte really that awesome against aggro?
Do you see any other options for the sideboard?
The primer is now five sentences. Now, I'm all for efficient writing prose, but there's a lot that could be added.
pi does bring up a good point, more consideration can be given to sideboard options. In the very least, it'll help to discourage redundancy of discussion .
Furthermore, the deck itself has gone through a considerable evolution since it's inception. Recapituating it's progress or providing a link one would be most helpful, again to discourage redundancy of discussion .
I read your most recent article about the trends of aggro and the power creep. It was very well written. While I realize the merfolk has been written on considerably by other knowledgeable authors, this thread supposedly represents the most evolved deck choices, and at this level of development, is most represented in only a fraction of the cards. Therefore, it would be most helpful to discuss the individual card differences, and not just the holistic meta game changes. For example, in your death and taxes thread, some card choices are discussed specifically analyzing which cards are 'tailored' for each meta-game, as well as a comprehensive matchup listing, play choices against each match up, and sideboard options after game 1.
Considering your comprehension of the format, and the decks tendency to draw new players otherwise unfamiliar with it, I just wish more of that meticulous attention would be applied to your merfolk primer.
So you dont like threads because it is double blue but have counterspells maindecked? I find that a bit strange. As for jitte it is good against aggro if they don't have more than 4 removal spells in their deck, but in my experience a good zoo pilot will make you regret using it as they will burn away your creatures before you damage with it.
Reejery is probably still better than sovereign just because most of the time your wakethrashers won't be alive long enough to swing.
I should start to feel bad, because my mono-U list looks exactly the same as Finn's in the updated primer. Apart from -1 Island, +1 Mutavault.
But that aside, I'd like to say a few things about Wakethrasher. I won't deny that it's an absolute house in some situations, but being a 1/1 for 3 on the defense just doesn't cut it for me. I went -2 Wake Thrasher and +1 Sovereign, +1 Standstill (I was running 3 at the time).
As for my new and improved (hopefully) sideboard:
3 Mind Harness
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
I always gear my sideboards to the bad match-ups. I'd rather improve my chances of winning against a bad match-up than making a favorable matchup even more favorable.
This is a double edged sword however. Apart from the Spell Pierces, I could board in everything else against zoo, 13 cards. Which are obviously too many. So what should I board in against zoo? I was thinking the 3 Mind Harness, 2 Kiras and 3 Relics myself. Thanks in advance.
It's a little bit of a toss-up, but I feel like out of the stuff you're using in your sideboard, Hydroblast is going to be better against Zoo than Relic. If you think about it, Hblast answers a lot more cards in their deck, unless they're using a lot of Knight of the Reliquary in addition to Goyf.
Where Relic just stalls them a bit, Hydroblast actually answers a lot of their cards which pose us the biggest problems: Lavamancer and their burn spells. Not to mention that you already have Mind Harness to answer their Goyfs and whatnot.
I hope my $0.02 is useful to you.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Yes, those $0.02 are very useful, thanks.
I was thinking though, a Relic keeps Lavamancer, Goyf and KotR in check, Goyf and KotR being easily their biggest threats in terms of size. But then again it's a matter of how fast they can fill up their graveyard again.
I should playtest more.
I might be wrong, but I think KotR is still kind of optional with Zoo players. Although personally I'm inclined to think he's better than Thoctar, I'm pretty sure a lot of people run other things in his slot.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
My thoughts where, that counterspell is more needed in the late or mid game (when you cant finish early). But concerning threads, I would really like to be able to cast them at round three or four - always. That is my point. However, thanks for your feedback. What do you think of the counterspell-idea?
I personally think Counterspell is kind of risky, just because if you leave double blue mana open, it implies that you might not have played any spells at all during the previous turn.
Merfolk is very much a tempo deck, and I find that it's usually very important that we counter spells for as little mana as possible. We're not quite as fast of a tempo deck as say, Tempo Thresh, but the principle holds true that we want to consistently drop threats and disrupt the opponent for as little mana as possible so we can keep applying pressure. If you want extra counter-magic, I think some better cards to try might be Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, or even Misdirection (ok, this one is only sort of a counterspell, but it's still wicked powerful).
In theory, Counterspell is fine for the late game... But seeing as how this deck doesn't want the game to last that long, if you're already in the late game, one extra piece of counter-magic probably isn't going to be enough to swing the game in your favor. Generally speaking, I find that if Merfolk goes to the late game, it's usually because of something that is already on the board that is preventing us from being able to alpha strike. This usually means some problematic permanent (like a Moat, Humility, Propaganda, etc.), or because there are other, larger creatures on the board that are preventing the Merfolk player from attacking profitably. In both of these scenarios, a Counterspell isn't really going to swing the game in your favor. What you probably needed was either a bounce spell, or some sort of "destroy target permanent" effect (which isn't really possible in mono blue, but still worth mentioning, because this is one area in which the white splash tends to shine.)
Of course, this is all theory. But I have a pretty good understanding of how this deck operates, so I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss my ideas on this topic.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Thanks, I understand your point. So what would you add? I really find myself comfortable with the number of creatures but I am not sure about the Counterspells.
However, I have the feeling, that a little bit more control / disruption would be fine. Also concerning the fact I want to go to Madrid, where probably a very wide range of decks will be played, what would you add in this slots? And how does your current list look like? (If you want to reveal it ;-))
Playing this deck without stifle just seems terrible to me. Stifle + wasteland is such a beating, and on top of that EE is the most played mass removal, and is pretty good against this deck. Cutting them for wakethrashers seems horrible, I'm less averse to adding sovereigns. Maybe I'll test -2 stifle +2 sovereign.
I once had a Zoo player sac Pridemage to kill my Relic even though he knew I had a mana open. I had already removed about 6 or 7 cards, and it was winning the game for me. I had established control around this card, and I had 4 creatures on the table, including 2 LoA. The next turn, he played 2 Tarmos, a Lighning Bolt, and a Lavamancer. He beat me shortly thereafter.
What I am saying is that Relic can be a beating on Zoo. But you need more than that. Apparently you have 13 sb cards for the matchup. What 13 cards will come out?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Don't you just accept that zoo is a bad matchup and avoid playing this deck if you expect a lot of it?
I have some experience with Zoo now and I actually think its a bad matchup but nothing unwinable.
You can actually win if you have a heavy mana denial plan and just screw them (happens sometimes since I added Stifle ;) and you also really need to figure out what to counter, I think the decisions on that may be the hardest in this matchup.
What I would like to know: How great is Kira against Zoo?
I tested Jitte and I think its mostly a dead card. Probably you are able to force some counters on it, but usually you need pretty nuts draw for this. And even then, it may just be they have an Pridemage who just eats the Jitte. What might be an idea for Sideboard if you play Jitte main: Sea Sprite.
Zoo is a bad match-up, but it's not unwinnable. In my mind, there are two basic variations that do better than the rest of the twists on Merfolk do against Zoo. These are the mono-blue, 12 lords + heavy mana denial plan; and the "splash white" plan.
I believe the white splash is truly the best variant you can run as far as the Zoo match-up is concerned. This is because they don't run any mana disruption, so you can rely on having white mana when you need it, and you get to play 8 spot removal spells in games 2 & 3 (and 4 maindeck StP in game one). Also, White offers a lot of other stuff that's fairly viable against Zoo besides just StP and PtE: Absolute Law, Jotun Grunt, Burrenton Forge Tender, etc. I'm sure there are a few things I'm forgetting.
Anyways, the mono-blue mana denial plan with 12 lords also seems to work well, but I feel that Zoo is one matchup where it is actually less consistent. With this build, you not only need a pretty fast opening hand to be able to match their clock, you need to have mana disruption at key times and be able to clog their hand. If they get a fetch off and get the basic land they need, you might just be screwed.
I don't think Jitte is worthwhile in this matchup, and if you want to hear a bunch of argumentation about this particular subject, it's in there somewhere in this thread. I don't feel like reiterating.
EDIT: Also, the only deck that Sea Sprite could possibly belong in is Faeries, and I've noticed that no version of that deck uses him... So draw your own conclusions on that one.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote