[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[GoldenCid]

Doesn't give mana. And is crap in landstill.

That's all?? With no explanation?
I found MoI very useful

[rsaunder]

I'd play a singleton P2E over MOI any day. It doesn't cost a land drop, can't get wasted, and has surprise factor. MOI is trash in landstill.

[whiteshepherdman]

MOI is like playing tabernacles: explanation is: you can do more with that space than having more nonbasics which don't allow you to play your 4cc bombs =/ its not baaad but its not the best and we want the best

[Mostly_Harmless]

At the very least, don't count it with your lands. Since the maze doesn't make mana and you said the Tolaria West is mostly a tutor, I'd say you need another land. Especially considering you don't run top.

If you already had a solid manabase, maze would be fine (although not particularly amazing). As it is, it should really be another mana producing land.

Edit:

That's all?? With no explanation?

The biggest problem with maze is that it forces you to decide between playing removal and playing land. This is a really big deal when you're trying to set up an Elspeth or FoF a couple turns down the line. A secondary concern is that your removal is now vulnerable to wasteland. I played it in eternal garden for a while, and even when you have a crucible out it really sucks to hear "Waste your maze, swing with dreadnought." There are a few other issues, but those seem like the biggest two.

[Illissius]

Maze can be pretty awesome in combination with mass removal, is uncounterable, and is also nice with Standstill. However, it's slow and dies to Wasteland. Apply prudence based on metagame.

[Citrus-God]

Maze can be pretty awesome in combination with mass removal, is uncounterable, and is also nice with Standstill. However, it's slow and dies to Wasteland. Apply prudence based on metagame.

A single Factory can stop an army of Mutavaults; a single Maze of Ith can only stop one. So which one is it?

[Otter]

Factory also trades with Mongoose, which is very useful. Maze just kinda watches you die.

Side note -- I ran a Maze in a GWBu Gifts Rock build I was working on a few months ago. It was nice as it was removal that I could squeeze into a Loam-based Gifts package like Loam/Waste/Monastery/Maze, but it wasn't that impressive outside that context. I kinda liked how it'd force them to overextend a bit so my Deeds were better, but it was also frustrating that I needed to build up mana to Deed and playing the Maze slowed that down. It's something of a messy card and I don't think I'd put up with it in most decks unless it fit in really nicely somehow, like that Gifts package. Landstill doesn't seem like it's got the synergy Maze is looking for.

[Illissius]

A single Factory can stop an army of Mutavaults; a single Maze of Ith can only stop one. So which one is it?

And a single Desert will kill any number of Electric Eels which clearly proves that it's better than Overrun which doesn't kill any. Meaningless argument is meaningless. Would you mind pointing out where I said you should cut Mishra's Factory for it? Play it over removal, if anything. Maze of Ith is not a land.

Anyway. I'm not saying you should run Maze of Ith in UW Landstill. I'm saying it's not self-evidently awful. It can be good in the right circumstances, even if UW is not the best Landstill variant for it. I ran them in UBG Landstill with Deeds and Intuition/Loam myself, which obviously helps. Intuitioning for Loam and two Mazes is so fun.

[mossivo1986]

Anyway. I'm not saying you should run Maze of Ith in UW Landstill. I'm saying it's not self-evidently awful.

I can't believe Maze is even being talking about in a Landstill Conversation.

Maze of Ith is terrible in Land-still currently. There isn't an argument in the world which would support Maze showing any relevant playability that another card (say a removal spell, or a utility spell) wouldn't be better as. Ill. Citrus's point was to state the not so apparent truth. Your response was quite vindictive and not necessary.

It would go along the same lines as:
"Why do moderators who don't actively play certain archetypes have a higher "respect" level then everyone else in said thread.

While I do understand the reasoning for this question, it isn't in my place to a. be a cock or b. ask/ make that argument here. Best used for a better time or place.

The bottom line is this folks. You all have some very brilliant minds when it comes to piloting land-still. We as a group constantly push the deck into new era's and meta-games (boldly go where no man/deck/archtype? has gone before.) It is pretty much a consensus that Tolaria west has been too slow and is too slow for the future of legacy. Unless there is a shift in the balance of things, it will remain that way.

As for Maze it doesn't stop creatures that are difficult to deal with (shroud) and it's removed by the wasteland strategy.

I hope this has been semi-informative and non-offensive.

[Felidae]

Hello everyone and my apologize for disturbing your little argumentation about Maze of Ith, but since Landstill is my favorit deck I hat no other choice then asking you guys about my current list.

I have followed this treads for a long time now and finally i reached the point where my list seems strong enough to stand a chance in my current Meta game (even if my Meta is a little random right now).

So I'll just cut to the list:

Lands:
3x Strand
2x Delta
1x Flats

3x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland

2xIsland
2x Plains
1x Swamp

4x Factory
2x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins

Draw:
4x Bs
3x Standstill
2x FoF
2x Top

Counter:
4x FoW
3x Cs
3x Snare

Removal:
4x StP
3x Vindicate
3x EE
2x Wrath

Win Condition:
2x Elspeth
2x DoJ
1x Humility

SB:
2x Relic
1x Crypt
1x Path
3x Plague
2x Pulse
3x Negate
3x Preacher


The list performed well for me in a small tournament ( I know this isn't really impressiv :) ), I just like to hear your oppinion :D.

Finally I just need to thank of all you guys, for your ideas, reports, discussions and all the other stuff that kept me in this deck.
Without this side and this tread I'd propably still play casual on the kitchen table with some kind of aggro tribal deck :) .

[GoldenCid]

@All: I'know that MOI dies to Waste, and gives no mana. But, MOI is not the only non basic land. Has "spell" effect and awaits for the best target in contrast with PtE. It's tutoreable, but yes..it gives no mana. Until now it worked...maybe no later.

[grahf]

I like your list, Felidae. It looks well balanced, and I'm not qualified enough to criticize any part of it.

What you you guys think of taking virtually that exact list, and going -3 Vindicate, +2 Cunning Wish & +1 Path to Exile? (With a different sideboard of course) Probably would also drop the swamp for another island in that case.

[Citrus-God]

And a single Desert will kill any number of Electric Eels which clearly proves that it's better than Overrun which doesn't kill any. Meaningless argument is meaningless. Would you mind pointing out where I said you should cut Mishra's Factory for it? Play it over removal, if anything. Maze of Ith is not a land.

I was supporting your argument. I should have specified. I didn't mean for it to be a response at all.

[Illissius]

Oh. Who were you responding to? Or what were you trying to say? I'm having trouble making sense of things.

@ mossivo:
Maze of Ith is best against aggro-contro or midrange decks with a small number of (usually largeish) creatures and no Wastelands. Supreme Blue is a good example from today's metagame. They can't counter it, missing a land drop is tolerable because they don't put that much pressure on you, and then when they're forced to play a second creature and you Wrath/Deed them it's devastating. At one point Legacy had quite a lot of these kinds of decks, though obviously that's less the case these days. So my point is that "Maze of Ith sucks" (unlike, say, "Path of Peace sucks") is not a constant truth but something that depends on the metagame. I wouldn't play it in the current metagame.

As for Tolaria West, though I was making no point regarding it, I've always thought it was bad.

[Antonius]

I was experimenting with a hybrid of Landstill and Lands/Eternal Garden, but the problem is that you can't support maze/tabernacle and wrath/humility and run enough blue cards for Force. Simply not enough space.

though I am curious, has anyone tried running Mox Diamonds in Landstill? T1 Standstill seems like such a back breaking play. Being able to spellsnare around the Daze or use CS on turn 1 also seems good.

[Illissius]

To be clear, I've only ever used Maze in Landstill as a 1-2 of. But a control deck with both Diamond/Loam and Force of Will is a pet project of mine since, well, a really long time, and getting the numbers to work out is, as you said, fucking hard.

[Antonius]

To be clear, I've only ever used Maze in Landstill as a 1-2 of. But a control deck with both Diamond/Loam and Force of Will is a pet project of mine since, well, a really long time, and getting the numbers to work out is, as you said, fucking hard.

I was tinkering with an experimental list, something like this:

(30) Lands + mox
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
2 (Flex Spot) -- More Manlands? Mutavault?
3 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains

(30) Non Lands
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath
1 Humility
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

[Felidae]

What's about adding a greensplash in the deck, so you would be able to play LftL (instead of Crucible) and Nantuko Monastary in the Flex Spot.

A single Tolarian West might work as well, you would have less problems finding your Wasteland/Manlands etc. and with Academy Ruins in your deck EE might be a good board removal.

@Grahf:
Thank you for your cmt, personally I like Vindicate more then Wish, because you have a direct answer against anything relevant (as I said befor, my Metagame is a bit random :) )

[Antonius]

What's about adding a greensplash in the deck, so you would be able to play LftL (instead of Crucible) and Nantuko Monastary in the Flex Spot.

A single Tolarian West might work as well, you would have less problems finding your Wasteland/Manlands etc. and with Academy Ruins in your deck EE might be a good board removal.

Why is loam better than crucible? Because it can recur itself? Imo, crucible is better because it doesn't cost mana to use every time and because it can be recurred with ruins. Adding green for Monastery however makes sense. Dump the mazes for two trops and a Horizon Canopy, then dump FoF for Intuition--that's how we'll fetch ruins, wasteland, etc. out of the deck. Grip would also be an auto-add to the board.

[Illissius]

Why is loam better than crucible? Because it can recur itself? Imo, crucible is better because it doesn't cost mana to use every time and because it can be recurred with ruins. Adding green for Monastery however makes sense. Dump the mazes for two trops and a Horizon Canopy, then dump FoF for Intuition--that's how we'll fetch ruins, wasteland, etc. out of the deck. Grip would also be an auto-add to the board.

• You can't simultaneously discount Loam being able to recur itself and then cite the ability to recur it with Academy as an advantage of Crucible.
• Maze of Ith is not a land. You cut spells for Mazes, Mazes for spells, and mana-producing lands for mana-producing lands.
• If you're going with Intuition, swapping one of the Crucibles for a Loam is something you should definitely do. You can keep the other two as Crucibles if you want; requiring less mana and fewer skipped draws to use is something one can respect.
• With Intuition/Loam in the deck I would definitely keep at least one Maze in. Being able to fetch two of them is backbreaking against some decks, but getting your hand clogged with Mazes is not so great against other decks, so the second one is a judgment call.

Other lands to consider include Kor Haven, Cephalid Coliseum, and Lonely Sandbar. (If you only have one Wasteland, Sandbar merits a close look -- it lets you keep recurring Wasteland with Loam while also drawing cards. On the other hand, coming into play tapped sucks, and with multiple Wastelands it's not as necessary.)