1) Genesis needs Survival, Teeg doesn'tOriginally Posted by Benie Bederios
2) Genesis coststo find and bury it and next upkeep +
.
3) We play 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Survival. If control player has Relic in sb, they will bring it in g2/g3. Teeg doesn't care about relic.
4) Teeg beats for 2 (or more 'cause of Exalted)
All in all, this is aggressive variant. Genesis is too slow for aggro plan.
Also, Iona+Retainers will cost you
Also, we run Mother of Runes.
Wouldn't a singleton Gaea's Cradle fit in nicely here in favour of a forest or the Wooded Foothills? It could help feed the mana hungry Survival a lot. Or do you think you would run too short of sacrifices for the KotR respectively of white mana sources?
This deck seems like a fun alternative to the existing Bant Survival. I really do like the addition of Mother and ETutor, the first for beeing an incredible pain in the ass to deal with, the latter for getting Jitte and Survival. More bombs is good, I hear.
What I don't like:
The Oblivion Ring
Seems like a wasted slot to me. If you want to remove an Artifact/Enchantment getting Survival and going for Pridemage seems like the better plan, if you aren't in a hurry. If you are in a hurry, waiting for a turn to get the ORing online isn't optimal either. Pridemage seems like the better alternative
If you are using it as a creature removal, you mostly are pressed on time and again fetching it with ETutor seems rather week. Kitchen Finks does the job usually better.
Now I understand the appeal of the flexibility of the Ring, but fetching it with tutor seems kind of clunky. I think that slot is better spent on Pridemage/Finks dependend on the expected meta.
Gaddock Teeg
I think there are currently too many good decks against which this card does too little, mainly: Zoo, Tribal Aggro (Merfolk, Goblins, Elfes), Canadian Thresh, Loam,...
This card does really shine against combo but you need to get lucky to have it in your opening hand, still be alive to cast it and have to protect it from bouce. That's a lot to ask in my opinion.
Hardcore control.decs with EE/Ruins, Moat, Wrath, Humility,... don't see enough play (at least from my point of view) to warrant a dedicated hate-slot.
I'd move them to the side for some combination of Elspeth (smashes control just fine), Finks (all around solid creature) and Jitte (LOVE this card, although it's probably not necessary with the ETutors maindeck) as I consider these cards more flexible and powerful in an open metagame.
Jötun Grunts might be another choice to consider, escpecially if Loam remains a popular deck. They are solid beaters and are disruption against Zoo (as they are a real wall and disable Mancers and Goyfs), Ichorid, Tempo Thresh and Loam.
I'd also try to cramp a Genesis into the side (probably instead of a crypt) to combo with the Faeries for continous graveyard hate.
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
Similar to Bant Survival, Genesis in this build is weaker than in other builds, especially the ones running black. Unless you have tons of mana (you usually don't) it is mostly used to recur your 1-of bullets, most noticeably - evokers (and other CIP effect creatures) and sac effect creatures. Both lists suggested here do not run evokers and run as many as 3 Pridemages main, so it is not that vital to recur artifact/enchantment destruction. The only thing, that you could possibly like to recur is lifegain from singleton Finks and rebirth effect from Witness. The former is mostly needed in matchups in which genesis is believed to be too slow and the latter (recurring swords) might be good, but is not enough to pull the weight. Also there are no therapies to blow your CIP guys when you want to recur them. Finally there is no Rofellos to fuel the mana hungry Genesis.
Still, even if Genesis is weaker here than in RockSur, I dislike not having him anyway. He allows you to keep playing threats after your Survival has been blown up (though noticeably - Iona combo makes this much less of an issue), gives you a backup plan if Squee has been RFGed and commits towards your inevitability.
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I also wonder if the list wouldn't benefit from more Witnesses. Her 2/1 body is obviously even less impressive nowadays, than it was few years ago, but she addresses one of the major drawbacks I believe this deck has, as compared to builds with black or even red - lack of tutorable spot removal. She also gets back the lands which have been sacrificed for the sake of waste-kotr lock...
Genesis: Like crow said without being able to regrow Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder it is weaker than in Black builds. I would like to play it, but a look at the DtB Forum forbids it. It is really bad (not even solid or mediocre) vs. Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, Tempo Thresh and ANT. Against Countertop it is only okay if you resolve Survival which is not very likely. The only matchup where I want it is Landstill but one matchup does not justify its inclusion.
But "one Genesis in the SB" might be a decent idea. Comboing with Faerie Macabre is great against Ichorid and Loam. And control decks will board in yard hate anyway, so if they spend it on Squee you still have another engine.
Top vs. E. Tutor vs. Sylvan Library (vs. Mirri's Guile): This is so close, I really can't say much except stating the obvious:
- Tutor guarantees a quick Survival and gives you the most flexibility and it also makes the SB so much better by finding Crypts and Canonist; on the other hand it is a one-shot and the card disadvantage is a real problem against every deck using blue (which as we know are a lot)
- Top fits the curve best, it increases your T1 plays from 8 to 10 which is great and it provides long-term card quality; on the other hand spending mana every turn can be a problem
- Library is the best card and in the test game I made with it I was frequently drawing 1 or 2 cards with it; on the down side it doesn't curve; the 2 Mana slot is already full and it makes the deck very vulnerable to Explosives.
I am currently not sure which is the best option.
Gaddock Teeg: While it is true that I frequently side the card out, his strength in certain matchups justifies his inclusion imo. Against every blue deck, even Tempo Thresh, he is a solid T2 play because he prevents them from casting them FoW on your third turn or forces them to use a Removal on him. You don't have much disruption anyway and Teeg fills that hole, especially in comination with MoR. Also note that beneath FoW, Combo and Landstill stuff (Explosives, Humility, Wrath) he also prevents Natural Order, Dread Return, Chalice on 2, Smokestack and Geddon. But I guess in a very Zoo- and Tribal-heavy metagame you might want to go down to 1 Teeg MD for 2 more Finks or one more Finks and 1 more Witness.
Mother of Runes /KotR count: Should imo be 4 and no other number. Mother gives you a much needed T1 play beneath Hierarch, and one that is very decent. When I have to choose between playing MoR and Hierarch on T1 I will often choose MoR, especially if the hand is threat light. And even though Finks aregood, KotR is just the better card in the deck so if you want more Finks you have to cut something else.
Progenitus/NO Sideboard: I don't think this is good. Against Combo it does nothing and against Control it meddles with Teeg and you also don't want it to get countered. Furthermore without Enlightened Tutor you have to increase the number of hate cards in every matchup (2 Crypts won't be enough anymore) so there is no room for 5 cards.
Oblivion Ring: If you run E. Tutor I see no reason to not run 1 Ring. It is solid against every deck and can save you against Humility.
Reveillark, Gaea's Cradle: Edit wrong rules statement.
Cradle is not needed as a Tutor target for KotR. With KotR in play you already have 4 Mana and the deck does not need more.
Unfortunately I can't test that much and can't put up any detailed matchup results. I played quite a lot on MWS and against the few good players there it felt good. Except for Combo and to some degree Loam I feel confident with every matchup.
Last edited by Tao; 01-15-2010 at 03:12 AM.
I still don't think Teeg is the best disruption piece out there. I thought about this over the course of the day and I think I'd like to see Grunts in his place. I'll start with a little exemple:
Your opponent goes Hierarch go, you have a of Hierarch of your own, your opponentplays Pridemage/Goyf and it's your turn. Now, if you have the Teeg in hand you have to consider dropping him, or a Goyf/Cat/KotR. If your opponent does play NO and has it in hand right now and can't couter the Teeg, the little guy is king! If your opponent doesn't play it though, but follows up with another beater/a CB you wasted a complete turn to summon a creature, that isn't going to effect the game a lot.
Bottom line: Teeg is really good, if you KNOW what you're playing. Hence I see him in the sideboard, after you have the information.
I think my biggest issue with him is, that he isn't a real thread. Grunts on the onther hand, while not shutting down Force, usually outmatch every single creature a blue deck plays (except the Hydra und stupid battleships, that is of course...) once they can attack or a turn later.
Granted, they are a lousy turn 2 play (except against Ichorid), but they are pretty disruptive against Zoo, Tempo Thresh, Loam and tribal decks (due to their size) and I think these are more played, than Stax, Chalice Aggro and Landstill.
I'd only play the Teeg main, if I expected a heavy NO/Combo meta, but then again, this deck arguably isn't the best choice in that meta.
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
Except that Jotun Grunts are a horrible terrible card and even worse in this deck. They do nothing when they're dropped, so they're poor Survival targets. They eat land and cards necessary to fuel both Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. They make Witness worse. And they go away on their own, which is card disadvantage for you. Also, they're terrible at being graveyard managers. Dredge rolls right over the top of them, and Loam hides its Loams with well-timed cycling lands when your triggers are on the stack.
Oh, and also, if I haven't mentioned it before? Every single list of every single deck in Legacy that has a Jotun Grunt in it, anywhere in the 75, is suboptimal. Because he's that terrible.
I believe this is false. My understanding is that it does work with Lark.
Any rules lawyer wish to explain why/why not this works, without derailing the thread...
Yeah, Lark works on KotR 'cause her static ability works only in play. In any other zone her P/T is the one written on the card i.e. 2/2.
More about Teeg:
This deck can beat fast and runs Wastelands, wich means it at least some tools to not suck to Storm. Now include 3 Teeg in MD. You'll still have unfavorable mu preboard, but you can improve it to at least even in g2/g3 without dedicating too much SB space to it. If your meta is Storm-infested, you should probably choose another deck. But if you have some Storm players, it's good to have descent chaces against them instead of just autoscoop.
Also, NO=>Prog, Humility and Elspeth are really hard to answer. Teeg helps here too.
To sum up: Teeg helps greatly in our bad matches/against bad cards, is not-useless to descent in many other matches and even if he is useless, you can Survival him into something else. Looks like MD choice for me.
Wow, where did that come from?
But let's continue the nerd rage:
1.) I don't think they don't do anything the turn they are dropped, that is my main argument pro Grunt. They are big! Big is good. They can deliver solid beats and are a reasonable defense creature. Which is a good thing against faster and slower decks.
2.) When you are the only player with Goyfs you can use the Grunts to not shrink them, otherwise you use them to downsize your opponents Goyfs. That seems like a good deal to me. Grunt + KotR = infinite Wastelands. Ok, you have a point about the Witness.
3.) They go away on their own, which is carddisagvantage... well if they held off attackers for one turn and beat in for 8 damage, I'd consider that a pretty worthy investment for 1W.
4.) Dredge rolls right over them: That's not even an argument. By that reason one should play Burreton-Forge Tender or Wheel of Sun and Moon in that slot. And it still won't help, because "Dredge rolls right over the top of them". Fact is, Grunts can combat Dredge effectively IF they don't have the nuts. If they do, you're screwed anyway.
5.) Loam hides Loam. Well the point is, they can either hide Loam OR hide their utility lands (Wasteland, Cyclers, Fetches) not both. Removing either one is a pretty good blow to their strategy, because it needs both parts to work.
But of coursepretty much convinced my and I bow my ignoble head before your supreme knowledge. You truly are worth listening to.
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
The thing I learned about Grunt while playing DnT:
His cumul upkeep makes him unreliable in anything you want him to do.
It is the opponent's strategy that can make him more reliable. The same can be said about Teeg, but a) when his effect is irrevelant, he don't just die b) IMHO Teeg answers to wider arrange of realy bad things than Grunt in this particular deck.
Grunt is reliable (thus good enough) against AggroLoam and TempoThresh.
Grunt is not very good against dredge even if they don't have nutz. Helps? Definitely. Good? No.
Grunt+KotR =/= infinite Wastelands. The limit is Forest and Plains in you have in play and Survival deck wants many lands.
Mono-w DnT just have no options but Grunt. This deck has.
Fair point.
Here's where our opinions obviously differ. I don't think that blocking a Force is worth a creature slot. Not if the body is 2/2. I do agree, that blocking Chalice, NO, Armageddon, Elspeth and EE is worth a creature slot, but the last tournaments I've played, I've seen a ton of Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh and Loam. I've also seen a fair share of ANT, but then again, I don't think Teeg maindeck helps you enough here to have a halfway equal fight.
Therefore, I'd pick a solid choice against commonly played decks over a stellar choice against rare decks for my maindeck slot. Maybe that's only my local metagame, but in my opinion Zoo, Merfolk, Loam and Tempo Thresh are far more common than decks with Chalice, Armageddon, Elspeth or NO.
My point is that Teeg answers the obvious bad things: Resolved NO means trouble, no questions asked. So does Eslpeth. But having a mere 2/2 creature opens you up to more subtle bad things: Nacatl, Kird Ape, Rhox War Monk, FoD, 2/3 Fish Lords, Mongoos, ... I'm not even talking about Wastelock or Bridge from Below but rather your weakend matchup against aggressive decks.
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
So I guess we could agree that the choice is defined by metagame, but:
I don't agree, and that's why:
Also, Teeg helps a bit against the new Dream Halls deck.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Quick rules clarification. From http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprul...s_20091005.txt :
This is the relevant rule for why Tarmogoyf is large in all game zones. Knight isn't worded like Tarmogoyf, so its ability does not apply when in a non-battlefield zone. eq.firemind is correct, and Knight does work with Reveillark.207.2a The card may have a characteristic-defining ability that sets its power and/or toughness according to some stated condition. (See rule 604.3.) Such an ability is worded "[This creature's] [power or toughness] is equal to . . ." or "[This creature's] power and toughness are each equal to . . ." This ability functions everywhere, even outside the game. If the ability needs to use a number that can't be determined, use 0 instead of that number.
Point is, you most likely have to dedicate the SB slots to aggro hate, because you definately want to board out the Teegs in that MU. So you don't really safe any SB space, as you wouldn't have to play the anti aggro cards with Grunt maindeck.I don't agree, and that's why:
Also, Teeg helps a bit against the new Dream Halls deck.
Also, if you say the deck beats fast, what is the best possible goldfish for this deck? Turn 4/5 probably? That's not really a clock against combo.
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
Fine. I'll put more effort into a point I've already argued a hundred times on here.
4/4 isn't all that big. They're a terrible defense creature, because your opponent can continue what he's doing and your Grunt eventually goes away. They're a terrible offense creature because Grunt -never- goes the distance on his own.
Know why people don't play cards like Book Burning, Skullscorch, etc? Because any card that gives the opponent the final choice has an immense drawback. You don't see it immediately, but Jotun Grunt is the same thing.
You're giving your opponent final choices. Jotun Grunt -will- die. Your opponent simply gets to pick the most beneficial way for him for it to happen. He can spend removal on it. He can chump block it. He can let it hit him a few times and spend his removal on other threats.
With most other threats, this isn't true. Other threats stay around until they're dealt with somehow. GW Survival doesn't have the reach to support Grunt, and Grunt hurts IT more than it hurts most other decks in the format.
You're assuming Tarmogoyf and Jotun Grunt are a split card. Survivals or not, you don't have complete control over when they're in your hand. Grunts shrink your Goyfs, whether your Goyfs are in play yet or not. When/If you draw one, they'll be shrunk.2.) When you are the only player with Goyfs you can use the Grunts to not shrink them, otherwise you use them to downsize your opponents Goyfs. That seems like a good deal to me. Grunt + KotR = infinite Wastelands. Ok, you have a point about the Witness.
Grunt + KOTR doesn't equal infinite Wastelands. Grunt's counters keep going up, and eventually it will go away. For the record, Loaming Shaman would do equally well at putting a Wasteland back if you needed, as well as being better against Dredge.
1W and a card. Here's where we differ. I consider that a terrible investment on its own. Even if you were guaranteed that. And you're not. Your opponent can remove it if it's beneficial for him to do so. Plus, it's yet another thing that gets absolutely crushed by one of the format's best graveyard hate cards, Relic of Progenitus.3.) They go away on their own, which is carddisagvantage... well if they held off attackers for one turn and beat in for 8 damage, I'd consider that a pretty worthy investment for 1W.
It's especially bad in a deck that isn't backed up by any burn, and especially in a deck where that 8 damage is going to weaken 13+ other cards in the deck (Goyfs, Witnesses, KOTR, and other Grunts).
The difference is in how close to the nuts Dredge has to be. I've lost to Dredge with two Tormod's Crypts and an Extirpate in my opening hand on the play. But to beat me, Dredge had to do this: Unmask the Extirpate, Needle the Crypts, and then play an Imp and a Breakthrough on the next turn. It takes a lot less for Dredge to play around a Jotun Grunt. Dredge's godhands aren't a black and white thing. The more hate you have, and the better the hate, the better your chance at surviving, and the less of their hands go the distance.4.) Dredge rolls right over them: That's not even an argument. By that reason one should play Burreton-Forge Tender or Wheel of Sun and Moon in that slot. And it still won't help, because "Dredge rolls right over the top of them". Fact is, Grunts can combat Dredge effectively IF they don't have the nuts. If they do, you're screwed anyway.
Except that every Loam returns three lands to their hand. So they can easily hide multiple lands and a Loam all in their hand.5.) Loam hides Loam. Well the point is, they can either hide Loam OR hide their utility lands (Wasteland, Cyclers, Fetches) not both. Removing either one is a pretty good blow to their strategy, because it needs both parts to work.
While the rest of this is true, Grunt does it no better than something that can hit all of the yard at once, such as Loaming Shaman.
Hey Guys!
I have been playing the Bant Survival.dec for a while now and made a quite decent 6-1-2 finish at the Germagic 1 in Hanau with it only missing Top8 by an unlucky loss in the last round.
I found the Iona+Loyal Retainers combo to be really strong but didnīt like the fact that the deck has a pretty week matchup against Merfolk which is quite rampant at the moment.
So reading this thread yesterday really caught my interest since with the absence of islands and the addition of big guys like KotR the Merfolk problem seemed to vanish without sacrificing the strength of the Iona combo. And since StormCombo is one of Bant Survivalīs weaker MatchUps, I wasnīt too worried about the absence of countermagic either.
Anyway, after reading this thread yesterday I decided to take the G/W Survival list to a local tournament today. I did some minor tweaks to the original list though, so here is what I played today:
// Mana
4 [u] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [7E] Forest
1 [MI] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
Removal and Engine
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [JDM] Genesis
SB: 1 [PRO] Spore Frog
SB: 1 [WL] Gaeaīs Blessing (I added this a few minutes before the tournament because I noticed some guys of which I knew theyīd play Painter.dec and the Blessing buys quite some time if they donīt expect it^^)
So the main difference compared to Taoīs list is the lack of Teegs in the mainboard in exchange for more Kitchen Finks and Elspeth. Just like Stefan aka Spirit of the Wretch already stated, the Legacy Meta is full of Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh and Loam at the moment and Teeg really doesnīt shine in these matches. Thus I put him in the side as a 4-of to still have him available if needed and put in more Finks (golden vs. Zoo, Tempo Thresh and Merfolk) and two Elspeth which I wanted to be there in the Loam matches at first, but which is also a true bomb on its own against many other decks.
I also cutted the Enlightened Tutor for Sylvan Library since that card is really amazing in my opinion and exactly what the deck wants and needs - and with Jitte online the latter getīs itīs fourth ability: Remove two counter from Umezawaīs Jitte: draw a card!But on a serious note: I really like the library since I know its power from different Zoo builds and I think it fits the deck very well. The second Jitte came in because I really just love that card and wanted a second copy of the shiny equipment by any means!
Genesis + Spore Frog in the side are against opposing Ionas - to have an out if Iona says "white", Tribal Aggro and Progenitus; of course Genesis is a house by itsself against control decks. I think the rest is quite self explanatory...
So, on to the report: we were about 20 players which resulted in five straight rounds of swiss without playing out the Top8.
1st Round: I donīt remeber his name but he played a Show and Tell deck.
G1: I win the dice roll and lead with Mother of Runes. He plays Island and passes. I already have Survival in hand but donīt play it yet to avoid running into possible Daze since I donīt know what heīs playing at that time, so I play Hierarch and attack with Mother. He plays EOT Brainstorm then untaps and plays land, Petal, Show and Tell!!! Ok, didnīt expect that.... So we both choose a card and put it into play. I choose Survival of course and look over to his side of the table just to see an Iona flipping over...Great! I think to myself... Luckily, he names green instead of white (donīt ask me why...
1-0
G2: He leads off with Island, Relic. I play Hierarch and pass. He plays Ponder, go. I play land Survival which gets forced. He proceeds to Ponder during his turn but does not do anything else. Meanwhile I drop a Jitte and a Mother of Runes during my turn. He plays more Brainstorm and even a third Ponder in his turn but gets a little angry since he still doesnīt seem to find what heīs looking for. I attack with eqipped Hierach on my turn and pass. We then draw go for two turns with me continuing to establish more and more counters on the shiny equipment. When I already have 6 counters on Jitte he plays Show and Tell and puts a Sphinx of the Steel Wind into play (I canīt remember what I chose to put into play, but I wasnīt anything relevant I guess) So meanwhile he got to 13 life while I had a Mother and two Hierarchs with ongoing Jitte action into play. So I just untap, swing with the equipped Hierarch giving her protection white and remove the six counter to finish him off.
2-0
Matches:
1-0
2nd Round: Oliver Stahl with Aggro Loam
Oliver is a nice guy and I played against him at several tournaments before so I already figure what heīs playing.
G1: He wins the dice roll but I honestly canīt remember much of the game, I just know that it involved a Goyf, two KotR and some Loam-Action on his side and a Mother two Kitchen Finks, 4 basic lands (heard they are good against Loam...) and a game breaking Elspeth on mine. I also had an early Sylvan Library and still remember that I grabbed all three cards when it triggered first (so I guess I drew some pretty good stuff that turn).
1-0
G2: He mulled to 5 but still got a pretty decent start with Mox, land, Confidant. Unfortunately for him, I had the sword. But he proceeds to draw well, since he ripps a Burning Wish into Loam from the top so the game isnīt over at all for him. The game ended with me having 3(!) Knight of the Reliquary in play (he really didnīt expect these) which kept him quite mana short on his last turn with only the mox remaining in play...
2-0
Matches:
2-0
Round 3: Sven Stolz with Zoo
Sven 8ed at the German Magic 1 and I know he plays his Zoo deck.
G1: He wins the dice roll and leads with land(no fetch), Lava Mancer. I play Savannah, Mother. He drops another land (still no fetch, so his Mancer isnīt active yet) plays Pridemage and attacks. I drop another Savannah, sword his Cat (since I have Survival in hand) and drop a Hierarch. I canīt remember what he did then - I just know that I installed the combo two turns later, while having played a Finks before to stall him and he scoops since heīs nearly out of gas and survival for more finks. GG
1-0
G2: He leads with Taiga Nacatl. I play Hierarch which gets bolted, but he doesnīt drop another land so I only take two by his attacking cat. I then proceec to play a Goyf to buy some time. He plays a Mancer and still didnīt find another land. So he canīt really do anything but pass the turn. Meanwhile I establish a tiny little Knight of the Reliquary to help him keep up his mana screw
After he saw a Wasteland on my side in game 1 he truely misplayed in keeping a risky one-lander. But I think with that line of play and the nice curve I layed he would probably have lost even if he had more lands in his earlier turns... anyway:
2-0
Matches:
3-0
Round 4: Friedrich playing Dragon Stompy
G1: He wins the dice roll and starts with Mox, Ancient Tomb into Morph. Luckily no disruption from his side. So I fetch a plains (I have a forest already in hand) and drop a Mother. He follows up with a second turn Rakdos Pit Dragon and somehow is able to attack with his unmorphed 5/5 Gathan Raiders... so he took the aggro route... Fair enough I rip a Hierach from the top, lay a forest play, Hierarch and sword his Dragon. I canīt quite remember, but I established the Iona combo soon after that and he scoops right to this.
1-0
G2: He leads with Chalice@1. And passes. I play land, go. He plays a morph on his turn. I play Sylvan Library. He plays a Pit Dragon (again those two guys..
1-1
G3: I keep a hand with: Forest, Wasteland, Hierarch, Goyf, Finks, Jitte and something else. Pretty good hand on the play, so I keep. He doenīt but mulls down to five (thatīs really the downside of those stompy list, some hands are broken and others..... well .... but thatīs another story) So back to topic, his Mulligan to five makes my hand even look better as already it and he doesnīt really get into the game at any point. Lucky me!
2-1
Matches:
4-0
Round 5: Jens Jäger playing Imperial Painter
I know Jens for several years know. Heīs a really nice guy and its always fun to play him. But since I am the only one with 12 points I offer him a draw and he accepts. We play it out for fun nevertheless and I win in two epic matches going to an undefeated record of 5-0 in Matches and 10-1 in Games overall.
"Officially" I am at 4-0-1 getting a Revised Tundra as 1st Pick which is a quite nice outcome for the invested 5€ entry fee I guess!
So all in all, I am very impressed by the decks consistency and strength. I had to take only one mulligan the whole day because of two few mana sources in my opening seven. Every MatchUp I play today felt really winnable, with Dragon Stompy being the only exeptance. Kitchen Finks was REALLY good all day, as was Jitte, Hierarch, and Knight of the Reliquary and Goyf and Survival and all other cards in the deck.....I am really very satisfied with every single card in the maindeck right know. And probably would only change one or two sideboard slots as well.
So I really give props to you Tao for posting such an interesting new decklist. Thanks! It was really fun to play the deck today since it is so flexible. I will probably play the list tomorrow at our monthly "Haßloch-Tournament" and am quite curious about the result. I expect only few combo decks but a very mixed metagame full of zoo, loam, Merfolk and other Tribal, CounterTop, Dreastill and Tempo Thresh list. Thus, a relative good environment for the G/W list. Weīll see tomorrow.
Grats to the good finish. I like your build, it emphasizes the strenghts and good matchups of the deck and weakens the weak one a bit more, that seems ok.
A few ideas to your decklist:
- 2 Krosan Grip seems not enough for me. Against the decks they come in (Staxx, Landstill, Countertop) you never have too much and they are always good because they also bring in Yard hate. 3-4 it should be.
- a 3rd Jitte in the SB is very useful against Zoo, Tribal and Ichorid.
- With 3 Finks, 2 Elspeths and a 2nd Jitte the curve increases slightly 21 lands was a bit tight anyway so I think that a 22nd land would be right. It also improves your great matchups Merfolk and Tempo Thresh further who basically only can win via Mana Denial.
Edit: I hate nights with less than 4 hours sleep^^
- I think Sylvan Library is not good enough. GW plays also as a Tempo deck and Library counteracts this a bit. And Unlike Zoo this deck has no Burn spells to draw off it to finish the opponent of. And with 4 Survival, 2 Jitte and 2 Elspeth MD the deck imo has enough "punch" to go into the midgame.
I would suggest following changes to your list:
MD:
- 2 Sylvan Library
- 1 Kitchen Finks
+ 1 Horizon Canopy
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
and reduce to 60 cards
SB:
+ 1 Kitchen Finks
+ 1 Umezawa's Jitte (3rd Jitte is great against Tribal, Zoo and Ichorid)
+ 1 Krosan Grip
- 1 Genesis
- 1 Spore Frog
- 1 Gaea's Blessing
Last edited by Tao; 01-17-2010 at 01:33 AM.
gratz from me again, christopher, after the tournament yeasterday I searched the list and build it for my own. the deck seems very strong and I will continue testing it...it is fun to play too, but at the moment I am unable to find a loyal retainers....even on ebay.vom...in germany is an english one, but for 160 eur...this is crazy shit!
ah, btw, your opponent in the first round was sebastian ehmke, a friend of mine, who played is second legacy tournament ever...I thik that is why his iona said "green"
and yea, our games are always funny ;-)
I hope you will continue the succes today in hassloch!
greetz
jens
So, after playing at a 61 player tournament today and finishing 4th place with this deck, I`ll report my experiences and my absolutely surprising finish:
I usually test with Christopher ("venice") and after his strong finish yesterday he convinced me to play GW Survival instead of the Bant variant of the deck. I had to change some cards because of my playstyle (read: availability of cards), Christopherīs experience yesterday and the expected meta in Hassloch. My decklist looked like this:
3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas (obv against Iona at the wrong side of the table)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Squee
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Eternal Witness
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawaīs Jitte
SB:
1 Genesis
1 Spore Frog
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 True Believer
3 Tormodīs Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Sliver (to support Pridemage against Needle)
1 Faerie Macabre
So, 6 Rounds had to be played....and my first opponent is Fabian with ITF:
Game1 he mulligans to 5 and I start to beat him with Pridemage, Hierarch and 2 Mother. He never finds a solution and I win short after. (I board nothing.)
Game2 he starts with Tropical, go. I start with Land, Hierarch. I install a board of 2 Hierarchs and 3 Mother of Runes because everything relevant is countered on my side. Nonetheless, I win because I have StoP for Tombstalker and he only has green creatures left :)
1-0
Round 2: Johannes with Countertop
Game1 I have a pretty sick hand with Iona in play round 3. He scoops and everything I saw is a Tundra, a Savannah and a Top so I set him on Bant Survival (and obv board wrong)...
..Game2 he shows me Top first turn, Balance second turn ond double Swords for my Critters. Oh, and Spellstutter Sprite (
Game3 I start with Land, Mother. He sighs. In this game I draw all my Wastelands (which he didnīt see before) and screw him pretty hard. I win with Iona in play with 1 Tropical on his side.
2-0
Round 3: Michael with Zoo
Game1 has the god draw: Lynx, Fetch, Lynx, Nacatl, Fetch, Burn, Burn, Fetchland.....I lose. ( Board: -2 Elspeth +Genesis +Spore Frog)
Game2 I lose due to the fact I draw no third land! I have Spore Frog lock ready (no third mana for recurring) and both Iona and Retainers in Hand. What should I say? I lose.
2-1
Round 4: Johannes with Zoo
Game1 I start with Mother, then Wasteland and Sword for both his single Land and his 1/1 Nacatl. He draws his second land in Round 4 and never has a chance to win.
Game2 I lose to mana screw, because he has double Wasteland which I wasnīt expecting at all. Also, he plays Sylvan Library which fills his hand with gas and my life points vanish.
Game3 I show him Iona turn 3 (after explaining my chinese Retainers) and I win 2 Rounds later at 19 life.
3-1
Round 5: Maximilian with Zoo:
Game1 I win with Iona on white. But I need like 4 turns to attack the first time because he stalls the board with his green-intense draw,4 Nacatls and 3 Goyfs! (Multiple Kitchen Finks are that good.) I board - 2 Elspeth -Pridemage +Genesis +Spore Frog + True Believer, like the games against Zoo before.
Game2 ends in time out. I install pretty fast Iona at red (thatīs the BIG mistake, because he obv has the Path to Exile), because I have a Mother in hand. So Plan B, I install Spore Frog lock. He could have won the game with his Lavamancer because iīm at 7, but thank god Iīm not the only one who makes mistakes and he empties the board with a volcanic fallout. He has nothing to win in time.
4-1
Standings are telling me that I have to play to be safe in the Top8, so I face my last opponent:
Jonas with TempoTresh:
Game1 I play threat after threat so his hand is empty pretty fast. I get a survival online and am able to sneak a Iona in play. Naming blue ( after he tries to trashtalk me to set it on green). He scoops at 18 life.
Game2 I only have a Mother on board and have to scoop to triple Mongoose after he forced my Goyf, my Finks and my Survival.
Game3 he mulligans to 4. But I think this matchup is absolutely in our favour, so I would have won anyway.
So, final result is 5-1 and 4th out of 61 players. I pick 2 Polluted Deltas. What would i change after playing this deck the whole day?
Main:
- Karakas, + basic land
-2 Elspeth: I boarded them out all day. As a very nice card, Elspeth is just too slow for this deck:
+Genesis: I boarded in this guy every match, so...
+Kitchen Finks: These are just too good to be not a 4-of. Obv I played vs a lot Aggro today, but even against other decks I wouldnīt mind to have a fourth one.
(- 2 Sylvan Library: These shine in some matchups, on the other side itīs often a dead card or win more. I first have to test the deck a litttle more to be sure.
With 2 Slots more you could play:
+ 1 Teeg: Very good preboard against some decks, you would have the possibility to tutor him. Only one because the other 2 are clearly SB slots and it would be too often a dead card.
+ 1 Jitte: I donīt have to explain haow good this one is.
or
+1 Secret Tech: Iīm sure there is much potential in this deck to be found.)
I am very convinced of my SB, so no changes here so far, I think. Notice: Spore Frog is an absolutely must play!
Christopher played 4-2 today and Iīm sure he has his own report online shortly.
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