Saito plays a lot of storm. He seems to have moved on from TES and something like TK's list (he's ran both) for more tranditional ANT. Check results for the ancient memory convention for more details (he lives in top8).
Hydroblast was considered in the FT thread as ananswer to a strong dragonstompy/moon/pillar meta. Those don't exist anymore in the US, but I wouldn't rule out either a good metagame decision of saito's combined skill with legacy and as a magic player to just not need the slot. Without a wishboard, you can probably get by on about 6 sideboard slots anyeay for 95% of matchups.
Also, winning one tournament doesn't mean the list is final or decisive. Piloted by a pro, even a known legacy competent pro like saito, doesn't make a list final or decisive. Statisticss versus a suspected metagame is the only the that gives you this and even that isn't good if you don't forsee the metagame well. The issue of chant vs duress vs pyroblast vs shusher vs bees vs pact isn't something that you can say 100%, 80%, or even 50% of the time will be correct for a legacy odyssey we call swiss+top8. At some point it comes down to matchups and skill at using what you have to create an advantage and get the W.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
But saito does not run doomsday meditate pack. Is there any real advantage on packing it??
Besides, he runs DConfidant in side. In what cases its useful?
The dude you're referring to is Yuu SaitoU, who is a lvl2 japanese judge. Tomoharu Saito (or Saitou) is the well-known professional player.Originally Posted by emidln
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The cost of adding DD/Meditate to your list is rather small, but it can improve your blue matchups. Often, you won't be able to use IGG in those matches, because they have counterspells in their GY, so you're left with only 1 (or 2, depending on the list) AdN's to generate storm. DD gives you another engine, and allows you to play through hate where IGG/AdN would fail you.
Confidant was long played as a sideboardcard against pure control decks, but has fallen out of favor. Xantid Swarm is just so much better imho.
Grtz
Did you guys test the non-W lists against Merfolk? 'Cause I cannot see that list winning the matchup, where Chant is.
DCI L1 Judge, admin of www.BeNeLegacy.nl and member of Team Nijmegen (T.N.T.=Team Nijmegen Tendrils).
I am by no means a good ANT player - in fact I have never played a game with it or against it.. Jesus talking about nailing my own coffin.. With that being said here goes:
With the discard package (without Chant) I would think that you can still go off with Ill-Gotten Gains - you simply return your discard and use it again? Other than that whats the problem of "only" using AN to go off? He runs two, so its easier to find..
I actually imagine Dark Confidant and the extra Tendrils comes in against Threshold and other aggro-control decks (merfolk), perhaps boarding some of the combo out - mind you that with all the card advantage you can easily go off without AN or IGG, and its not like you are under a heavy clock - you have time to sculp a perfect hand, get Threshold and search for Tendrils..
The City of Traitors seems good cause a hand of City, mana-artifact, AN and dark ritual is all you need to go off right? I guess it makes mulliganing with the deck a bit forgiving.. It adds a bit of resillience against Daze too I guess.
Regarding Xantid Swarm I have heard that many players disagree how good it is.. Cant remember the arguments though :) Plz enlighten me
Not I am blindly obeying pros, you are blindly flaming.
That is just concentrated stupidity, honestly. Pointless flaming at Pros just because they are Pros. You look at a list made by a Pro that is not the standard Storm list and all you manage to say "oh look at him, he is horrible because he doesn't play the standard list." "This is not standard and wrong and this too and look at this, not standard and wrong and bad.". Quote me out of context and ignore the rest of my post if you like but that is what you are essentially doing. You have fixed opinions about how ANT should look, and how an ANT SB should look, and completely dismiss that these changes were made by a great player AND that this great player has proven that the deck works in a big tournament (and has beaten Canadian with Vendillion Cliques in the Finals btw.).
What is it? Tell me. Why does he not play the standard list? Do you really think he is too stupid to copy paste lists from recent tournaments if he wasn't interested in the format? Doesn't it come to your mind that he (or maybe his teammate and if so he is certainly a good Japanese Legacy and not a random scrub) have thought about this and that they had their reasons? Maybe he weighed mana consistency and speed higher than Chant effects. Maybe he did not want to get his Xantid Swarms StoPed and Bolted every time. So Saito made diviations to a deck, then went to a big tournament, won that tournament and you still claim that it is just a bad list by someone who does not know the format. That is just so incredibly stupid, I don't get it.
I really like dark confidant postside. I think that although the probability of revealing a "dangerous card" is low (AN, IGG or ToA) i believe that we have to go off via DD or IGG instead of AN.
@IGG
Most of the time you will need all three cards you get back to combo off, or you won't have extra mana to cast a Duress. Also, what if they get back more than one counterspell?
@AdN
Running two also means you are more liable to flip one over while going off with Ad Nauseam, costing you a hefty 5 life. The deck runs enough tutoring power that you only need one to consistently go off. Only variants without the DD package should ever consider running more than one.
@Dark Confidant
He's alright. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves, but then again there are too many people on both ends of the spectrum - he definitely isn't the amazing creature others are claiming he is. In my testing, Xantid Swarm has proven to be a much larger threat against U-based decks.
@City of Traitors
Only if you're going balls to the wall. I think Crystal Vein is better if you're going to do that.
@Xantid Swarm
They only disagree because Carpet of Flowers might be better in more matchups, as Swarm can still get burnt out against TT and other aggro-control matchups. If you resolve one against Merfolk, you are more than most likely going to win.
@Saitou's List
Everyone just relax. That list looks just like any other standard ANT list. 6 hand disruption spells, 2 Tops over Ponder #3-4, and a green splash post-board for the CB matchup. He runs City of Traitors instead of Crystal Vein. I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Not to be an asshole, but you're telling me to quote your posts out of context and that's the exact thing you just did above with my previous post.
I'm not saying things without a reason. Tell me, did you ever play ANT? Did you ever got fucked because the other hid a spell on the top with SDT? Did you ever played against stuff like Spellstutter Sprite or Cursecatcher which you can't take with Duresses? Did you ever Duress the opponent finding Snares and Stifles and not being able to go around all of them?
Did you ever realize how Thoughtseize is bad paired with 2 Ad Nauseams?
You are convinced by the fact that he is Saitou and he won the tournament, so his list is pretty good. This is the real fact. If he would have been a normal player, you would have despised his list, i bet it.
In my last post I also said that his list isn't bad at all, but it has some visible weaknesses against Matchups that matter. I'm not trying to bring it on the standard list, which FYI I don't consider to be the ultimate ANT. But the fact that the list with Chants puts up way more results than the ones without discard (go on Deckcheck) to me is slightly more significative than the fact that the pilot of this tournament was Saitou.
And also, don't you think that he may have not met any blue-based deck during the Swiss, or have met some with light disruption? As ElfAscetic said, try this list against Merfolk and you'll play in a position of notable disadvantage. In judging the deck, I always refer myself to a general situation, in referrement to the Tiers1 and the most difficult MUs.
But.. may have that list been perfect for that meta? Perhaps. He beated Canadian Threshold in the finals? Ok, I'd like to know how things have gone, because g2 and g3 if the Thresh player brings in Spell Pierces, ANT without Chants is in a bad shape.
Could this list perform in a general metagame? I don't think so.
And what does it mean that he has won against Tempo Threshold? Is it one game enough to acknowledge the list as a good one? There's always the possibility that the ultra-favourite for winning deck loses to the crappy one, like Elves winning on Ichorid and such. It's a game of luck after all. But if we base on a "typical" match, I think you can't not agree that Chants are more strong against Tempo decks, and , in general , against multi-counter blue decks, which are ANT's real Achille's heel for definition (with Counterbalance).
Swarms burned or STPed? While I can agree with Bolt or Fire/ice, who keeps a card that's basically useless, because it can't evn pitch to FoW? It's also difficult to foresee that an ANT will bring in Swarms g2 and g3, if one does not see green. While Confidant is a very probable move from the combo player.
And doesn't Confidant die out of the same things Xantid would? But the bonus of Dark Confidant is that it costs 2, making AdN worse; and it also goes under Spell Snare, quite played by Blue decks.
I would like to make you see that I'm reasoning using strategical logics, not talking for rage.
If he'll put on steady results, or this list will begin to be played, I promise I'll eat my words and respect that list. But holy fuck, please STOP saying that I'm bashing him for the fact that he's a Pro without reason, because you haven't still understood that what I'm bashing is the list and not the person. And about 4 people told this thing after me, too.
It's useless to discuss. You are set up on the list being piloted by Saitou and so being good, while I'm focused on the list lacking good protection for blue matchups. Better to stay with our respective beliefs and not to spam the topic anymore.
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By the way, why does he play City of Traitors? Colorless mana isn't good for the deck, besides paying for SDT T1 and being able to actiavte it immediately.
I mean, it dies to our own lands, can't be fetched and dies to Wasteland, just like a Dual which can be fetched and with which we can play our spells which actually cost quite a bit of colored mana.
The 2 colorless mana it gives is a big thing to get to 3BB. It most likely is played as the laast land you drop before you go off. Think of it as a Petal for 2 colorless.
That said, I think Crystal Vein would be a better choice if you want such an effect.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
I personally dislike CoT, but i think that i has a well purpose to be in.
And by the way...is there place for both Xantind or Orim's chant and Confidant in side??
My question on OC is considering other storm combos.
And how the hell do you know anything about Saito and his experience in Legacy?
Saito is a better deck builder than anybody in this entire forum, let alone just this thread. To imply that Saito didn't test the deck or format much is simply ignorant.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Some points:
Being a good player does not mean being a good deck builder.
Being a good deck builder does not mean matching a collective hundreads of heads strong.
Good players can win tournaments with subpar lists.
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With that said, i'm not skilled enough by far to judge whether Saito's list is the best direction for the deck or not; but the arguments against it apparently overwhelms the arguments for it (since the only argument for it is that Saito piloted it, Finkel Burn-syndrome anyone?).
The problem is the metagame.
There is no one single build of AdN that's definite, or good on any metagame. I play DDANT with 4 Chants and 4 Duress, it gives me a weaker and slower deck when compared to straight ADN decks but I feel like I have decent a shot against most decks. Chants are good against Stifle and Spell Snare and Duress is good against deck with few counters or permanent based disruption. On the SB I use Xantid Swarms, Krosan Grips and some assorted amount of bounce spells. My metagame is filled with Merfolk, so Xantid Swarm is the best hate around. I chose to build a more generic version with DD and Chant/Duress split because my metagame is somewhat random and that allows me to play around a lot of things.
In a metagame with decks that pack few counterspells and a lot of Stax/Dragon Stompy a deck with only discard spell could be ok, the added speed granted by City of Traitors complements that.
In my opinion, we should stray away from discussing whole decklists and start discussing single cards. The reason why to play a card instead of another, what to play in certain metagames, etc.
I agree. I though on a 4/4 Split of Duress/Chant for smililar reasons.
Here is my list for disscussion:
// Lands
2 [US] Swamp (4)
1 [TE] Island (4)
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
1 [U] Underground Sea
// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TE] Meditate
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [M10] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [PC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
I'm not sure if sideboard is quite fine but i gives me results.
- Why do you run two Basic Swamps one not just one?Here is my list for disscussion:
- Also, if you do run a Basic Swamp it is probably better to run 4 Polluted Delta before thinking of other fetch.
- 2 Volcanic Islands seems to much to support 2 Burning Wish as the only red cards in the deck. Have you run into an abundance of situations where you didn't have the extra red for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens?
- I would advice running a Deathmark in your sideboard that you can bring in against Zoo etc for hatebears.
- By cutting Ponders for extra hate you will be more relliant on openingshands or drawing the cards. I haven't tested this so can't really comment on it but it's something to watch for during testing.
- You have less shuffle effects than most lists (8 fetch instead of 9 and 0 Ponder instead of 2). Another thing to check for during testing.
Questions:
- How has the Vindicate turned out to be? Do you only use it as a Wish target or do you side it in?
- What is the Extirpate for?
Here is mine:
// Lands
1 [ZEN] Swamp (4)
1 [ZEN] Island (4)
1 [ZEN] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
// Spells
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [M10] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [M10] Silence
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [] Brainfreeze
SB: 1 [A] Bayou
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [] Rushing River
- Yes, Chant effects are that good!
- Xantid Swarms > Merfolk, which is abundant in my metagame.
- Bayou is there so I can have an option to fetch a black source when I fetch a forest to play my Swarms, the Tropical is fetched by any dual and is normally the first target.
- I don't like the Krosan Grip MD, but it's so much better against Counterbalance... but sometimes I just wish it was a Rushing River.
- Mox are there to smooth the AdN, they're a necessary evil.
- Brainfreeze is there to beat crap, like Life.dec.
Open to suggestions.
I'm rather curious to the singleton Plains. You run 7 Chants, I run 6 in my list and am quite happy with 2 Tundra instead of 1 Tundra, 1 Plains.
Also, the Scrubland. I can understand that you might want to generate black one turn and white the other but I just don't see how. You tap it during your own turn for either W for a chant or B for acceleration but none of your cards for setup are Black or White. It'll barely ever happen that you need the black the turn before you want it for white for Chant (except the one of Duress).
I notice you are running the transformational sideboard for triple Doomsday and triple group in the CB matchup. How has this been working out for you? As well as the Brainfreeze over a Grapeshot with the Helm Combo. Is this because you think you can't generate the R needed with LED or petal for your combo?
You run 8 shuffle effects (8 fetch, not counting Mystical or the likes) with 4 SDT and 4 Brainstorm. Has this caused any problems so far?
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