[Deck] The Rock

[RalfW.]

Hello everybody,
i´ve played a NORock at a 45 Player tournament and finished in 9th place.

Here the List i´ve played.

Creatures 19

4 x Birds
4 x Kitchen Finks
4 x Wall of Blossom (Should be Tarmogoyf)
2 x Tidehollow Sculler
1 x Dryad Arbor
2 x Eternal Witness
1 x Shriekmaw
1 x Progenitus

Spell 21

4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Thoughtseize
3 x Vindicate
2 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
3 x Natural Order
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands 20

3 x Windswepth Heath
4 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Marsh Flats
2 x Swamp
2 x Plains
2 x Forest
3 x Bayou
1 x Scrubland
1 x Savannah
1 x Volrath´s Stronghold

SB:
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Extiprate
4 x Engineered Plague
1 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Nath of the Gilt-Leaf

Round 1/3: Goblins

In both rounds I can handle the Lackeys and after boarding the Plagues showed often enough to win both Rounds with Progenitus. Two times Maelstrom Pulse gets rid of 2 or more Goblins at one time.

Round 2: G/W/R NOProgenitus

2:1 for him, he can cast more Progenitus and Elspth then i can.
One game Woolly Thoctar Turn 2 and 3 are to much for me.
Game 3 i cast Thoughtseize on my to get rid of my Progenitus and cast NO to get it back with him casting NO the next two Turns to kill my Progenitus and get his own one.
These games were very close.

Round 4: Merfolk

Quite the same as in Round one and three, only with him winning also one game with the Land Vial, Standstill, enough counter start for him.

Round 5: Trisomy 21

He wins by creating two much card advantage and me taking innocent blood while he has smallpox to kill me with. He wins the Tournemnet afterwards.

Round 6: Reanimator

Game one he plays Ioona on Green, i got the Sword in the Round before he can attack lethal, I can Cast NO an win.
Game two i get ride of two Putrid Imps with Malestorm Pulse, he finds no other discard outlet and me Progenitus wins.

One of the best cards was Maelstrom Pulse, it destroyed an Goblin player alone. Also this deck is only tons of Removal and a Progenitus to win it is quite fun to play.
In my opinion you need no Grips in the SB. With the Nath I hoped to do better against Combo because of the random Discard an you can search him with NO :-)
Any suggestions waht else to play in the Sb or Maindeck?

[James22]

Good morning (here in Italy it's morning ) to everyone. I'm an Italian player and I've been reading this thread since about 4 months. In spite of my really bad english, I decided to post my thoughts about the deck, trying to reanimate this topic. I ask you to forgive me for the language mistakes I'll make.

I begin with the decklist that I'm actually testing:

// Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
2 Plains

// Creatures
2 Eternal Witness
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Extirpate

A few comments about my list.
22 lands. I think it's the right quantities running STE. I can say that I rarely get screwed. Verdant catacomb has been a great add-on for the deck's mana base.
As you can see I'm one of the few last players that have been running STE yet. So, the first question I'd like to ask some players:
How do you feel without any mana accelerators?
On this thread I've seen a lot of interesting decklists running neither STE nor BOP. Actually, I think that this deck need 4-5 mana sources in play to develop well his gameplan. I also don't understand how some players can play a deck with a mana curve higher than mine, whithout mana accelerators and running wasteland and treetop village

Creatures: I run Confidants and Witnesses as sources of card advantage. Kitchen finks are simply too good in an aggro meta like the italian one (here in Milan in particular )
In other version of the deck I would test also Knight of the reliquary, that in my version in simply shit. I'm also testing a version of the deck with NO, but I've never played it at a tournamente due to the lack f NO, that here are very difficult to find.

Spells: Seize, deed, vindi, e swords are auto-included. I've switch 1 vindicate with the fifth StP (path to exile), because of the great presence of zoo and merfolk, that convinced me to include a cheaper removal. I don't understand why some lists (like the skeggi's one), don't run deeds. They are simply a source of card advantage, especially against zoo and meroflk that are very played here in italy as in the rest of the world (based on what I read on this forum and on deckcheck). I also run jittes MD for the same reason, although it anti-sinergy with deed is evident. Now, I'm testing elspeth and I've to say that it's amazing. Absolutely broken against aggro, and also against control. It also speeds up our race that has always been a problem of the deck.

Question: Have you found a serious solution against progenitus?
Elspeth let me to fly over it and gaddock and additional discard effects help me post side, but I'd like to find a better solution... if it exists and fit well with our gameplan (so damnation or wrath of god aren't good solutions...)

[Kanabo]

does anyone know where the original list went? (the list on post 1)

[damionblackgear]

@James22 - Welcome to the thread. I'm wondering what you mean by an aggressive Meta. If you're referring to Gobs and Merfolk then it may help to include Ghostly Prison. Zoo could be it's own other issue but you would be suprised at how strong a Baneslayer looks against them. The risk isn't as big as it seems as we used to run Loxodon Hierarchy and bob alongside each other.

[citanul]

does anyone know where the original list went? (the list on post 1)

The forum decided to go kablamo! And deleted the topic on editing.

[brianw712]

On this thread I've seen a lot of interesting decklists running neither STE nor BOP. Actually, I think that this deck need 4-5 mana sources in play to develop well his gameplan. I also don't understand how some players can play a deck with a mana curve higher than mine, whithout mana accelerators and running wasteland and treetop village

I'm assuming you're referring to my list. I've never had any mana problems, except sometimes against tempo thresh. I run 26 lands vs. your 22 and 4 STE, so its about equal there. Also, you need GG for witness and WW for Elspeth, where I only need one of each basic to play everything in my deck. About STE, I haven't tested it, but I don't like it because it doesn't accelerate to 3-drops.

Question: Have you found a serious solution against progenitus?
Elspeth let me to fly over it and gaddock and additional discard effects help me post side, but I'd like to find a better solution... if it exists and fit well with our gameplan (so damnation or wrath of god aren't good solutions...)

You could try Runed Halo in the side or replace some swords/PTE/Vindicate with Diabolic Edicts.

Also, if you have an aggressive meta, especially one with a lot of tribal, I've found Infest works best. I think of it as the black Firespout, except you can't side it in vs. Zoo.

[James22]

Probably I didn't explain properly my thoughts. Aggro.decks are the match ups I always want to face.

@damionblackgear: I've never found zoo a bad MU. The Rock is simply designed to beat that sort of decks. Deeds are the key cards in this MU. I think Baneslayer Angel is a strong card, but a little bit slow for legacy. As I said in my other post, I think Elspeth is the best choice as a finisher.

@brianw712: STE plays a double role. It accelerates our gameplan and slow down the race of aggro decks. I prefer it in spite of birds of paradise for his function of blocker. I also find very useful his shuffle effect, that playing sensei's diving top is really amazing.
I haven't understand how infest can be a solution to progenitus... Probably you referred to perish. IMHO Runed Halo is a little bit too specific, and also very anti-synergic with pernicious deed.

Here in Italy in some decklists I've seen Hide/Seek. I'm going to give a try to it, probably in the slots of duress. I'll post my feelings about it after some tests.

[brianw712]

I haven't understand how infest can be a solution to progenitus... Probably you referred to perish. IMHO Runed Halo is a little bit too specific, and also very anti-synergic with pernicious deed.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant Infest as an answer to tribal (rather than Engineered Plague), not Progenitus. I don't think Runed Halo is that specific, it not only answers Progenitus, it also answers ANY creature on the board (including Reanimator targets, which are hard to deal with otherwise), Tendrils of Agony, Grindstone, targeted discard (although I admit that this isn't very relevant), and burn. You could even name Warren's Weirding against RB goblins=]. Also, although it can be anti-synergistic with Deed, it can cause them to overextend, making Deed a little better.

Here in Italy in some decklists I've seen Hide/Seek. I'm going to give a try to it, probably in the slots of duress. I'll post my feelings about it after some tests.

Haha Seek on Progenitus = Epic Win.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Question: Have you found a serious solution against progenitus?
Elspeth let me to fly over it and gaddock and additional discard effects help me post side, but I'd like to find a better solution... if it exists and fit well with our gameplan (so damnation or wrath of god aren't good solutions...)

If you know that you're facing a deck with the Progenitus combo, I've found that one of the most effective general strategies is to deny your opponent access to his or her accelerators, which also function as Natural Order sacrifice-dorks. The longer you delay the combo, the more time you give yourself to find an answer/to do enough damage that it no longer matters. By removing dorks, you're slowing the opponent down, but you're also ensuring that your Edicts will actually be able to hit Progenitus itself.

In conjunction with proactive efforts (pure beatdown, Elspeth, etc.), this strategy seems to work exceptionally well. You don't necessarily need a whole new set of cards, you just need to fine-tune your approach to the matchup.

I hope that makes sense/is helpful.

[brianw712]

I've made a new list, and I don't know if it belongs here or in the Eva Green forum, but I'm posting it here anyway.

Lands (23):

4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog (the new one from worldwake that exiles target player's graveyard)

Creatures (12):

4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Disruption (12):

4 Thoughtseize
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach

Removal (10):

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Vindicate

Miscellaneous (3):

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):

4 Diabolic Edict
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt

I haven't tested it all that much, but from what I have tested, it's SIGNIFICANTLY faster than my older list, and as a consequence is performing much better. Thoughts?

[damionblackgear]

I've made a new list, and I don't know if it belongs here or in the Eva Green forum, but I'm posting it here anyway.

Lands (23):

4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog (the new one from worldwake that exiles target player's graveyard)

Creatures (12):

4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Disruption (12):

4 Thoughtseize
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach

Removal (10):

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Vindicate

Miscellaneous (3):

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):

4 Diabolic Edict
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt

I haven't tested it all that much, but from what I have tested, it's SIGNIFICANTLY faster than my older list, and as a consequence is performing much better. Thoughts?

So I'm all for the lack of Stronghold but with knight you can definitely use a couple more multipurpose lands. I've found Kor-haven to be amazing. Especially since it only fogs the attacking critter. Sometimes it's what you're left with.

How has the lack of Krosan Grip been going for you. I found that we have so many 3 drops that they normally just leave a 3 floating on top when they can get counter-top running.

How're you match-ups looking?

[brianw712]

So I'm all for the lack of Stronghold but with knight you can definitely use a couple more multipurpose lands. I've found Kor-haven to be amazing. Especially since it only fogs the attacking critter. Sometimes it's what you're left with.

Kor Haven seems good, but I don't know if I can afford one more colorless land. One thing I noticed while testing this deck is that, since you often want BB by turn two for Hymn to Tourach, that you usually fetch for duals first. If you keep a land-light hand, this opens yourself up to massive mana screw by a turn one wasteland. Note that less than half the spells in the deck are castable with colorless mana. I'm not sure if Kor Haven would hurt more than it would help, but I'll test it. Stronghold isn't in for the same reason, and also because I find myself using Stronghold very, very infrequently, like 1 out of every 100 games maybe (at least in my older version).

How has the lack of Krosan Grip been going for you. I found that we have so many 3 drops that they normally just leave a 3 floating on top when they can get counter-top running.

I don't think CounterTop is really a bad matchup for The Rock. It's a lot less unreliable when you go turn one Thoughtseize, turn two Hymn, turn three play a threat and don't really have a need for playing 2 cc or 1 cc spells anymore. That's why I left Krosan Grip out of the board, because I think it's too narrow. It helps against CounterTop, Survival, and...I guess Landstill, Quinn, PainterStone? But all of these matchups can be remedied by switching up the E. Tutor toolbox in the board. You could include a lot of cards that I didn't, like Choke, Pithing Needle, Aura of Silence, whatever. I just haven't found space for them.

How're you match-ups looking?

Like I said, my testing with this version has been really light (and mostly preboard), but I'll give you a run down the best I can.

Countertop: Favorable
Survival Bant: Favorable
Aggro Loam: Even/Slightly Unfavorable, probably gets better after side
Goblins: Favorable (turns out targeted discard is AWESOME against goblins)
Merfolk: Favorable
ANT: Unfavorable, probably gets better after side
Zoo: Surprisingly even-favorable, I initially thought that the package Thoughtseize, Gerrard's Verdict, and Hymn would suck against Zoo, and although it makes you take a lot more damage initially, it also makes sure that your first threat doesn't get PTEd or burned. It usually gets to the point where you're at 5 life, but have a favorable board position, and they have to draw into two burn spells to win. But of course that's where self-targeted Gerrard's Verdict and self-targeted Swords to Plowshares come in=].

Yea, maybe my memory is biased, since most of those are favorable, I don't know (I didn't really keep track of games). If you want results for other matchups, ask me, or test it yourself.

[damionblackgear]

Kor Haven seems good, but I don't know if I can afford one more colorless land. One thing I noticed while testing this deck is that, since you often want BB by turn two for Hymn to Tourach, that you usually fetch for duals first. If you keep a land-light hand, this opens yourself up to massive mana screw by a turn one wasteland. Note that less than half the spells in the deck are castable with colorless mana. I'm not sure if Kor Haven would hurt more than it would help, but I'll test it. Stronghold isn't in for the same reason, and also because I find myself using Stronghold very, very infrequently, like 1 out of every 100 games maybe (at least in my older version).

I hadn't taken a look at your mana requirements when I fist looked at the deck and I apologize for that. On that note, I'm wondering how the wastes are working out? do you need 4? it seems like they would come up and mess up a hand pretty easily. It's almost like they count as spells.

Yea, maybe my memory is biased, since most of those are favorable, I don't know (I didn't really keep track of games). If you want results for other matchups, ask me, or test it yourself.

That's more or less what Rock should do, have a decent game vs the field mainboard and be able to side the last answers to each individual issue. I'm wondering what the issue with Loam is. you look to have enough land to recover from DD as well as enough removal for their critters.

[MrShine]

I think you should probably avoid Kor Haven; singleton lands are nice in certain situations but you are playing a very aggressive deck that is very colour intensive - like you said, BB T2 for hymn not to mention a green and white source in the mix for casting your beaters T3. the exception to this rule being Volrath's Stronghold, which has been amazing for me but my colour requirements are a little less stressed than yours (I always fetch basics if I can).

One thing that I've noticed about the rock is that stumbling on mana the first 4 turns will spell death for you... With your strategy requiring many duals wasteland + stifle can be backbreaking (9 fetches), which is relevant as merfolk is very popular at the moment (I see aLOT of merfolk here in montreal). You are playing 23 lands, though, so maybe you've been able to draw out of mana denial? I'm playing 21 and its just about enough; with your low curve I definitely think you could cut a couple lands.

Overall, I think the approach you are taking has merit, but might not be that well positioned in the meta as a whole these days. Discard is great vs blue (landstill especially) but I think 12 may be too much; you really are relying on Top to filter it away in the lategame when you are looking for threats... If I were you I would think about cutting it down to 10, or maybe just the Thoughtseize/Hymn Package. Unfortunately, as The Rock we can't afford bad topdecks as there is very little source of card advantage.

That being said, I would think about fitting in 1 or 2 Eternal Witness - these guys are great, mid game they buy back swords or discard as the situation warrants. In this case, cutting a land for a Stronghold would be fantastic - it sucks in your opener but if you are sticking with 23 that makes it 18 w/ 5 colourless sources which isnt too bad. It is just crazy with witness lategame when you need a little more reach than playing off the top, and doesn't completely fold to graveyard hate (which isn't that good against us anyway)

Is 4 Doran not too much? I would think about cutting him down to 2 or 3 while at the same time adding some more threats, as you are only running 12 which is VERY low. I am a big fan of Kitchen Finks, and Pridemage is awesome against soo much. While they may dilute the really powerful threats you are running, the addition of Jitte will give you real reach against almost all aggro and stomp them into the ground :D

Here's what I would change, keeping in mind your tight curve from 1-3:
-1 Doran
-1 Gerrard's verdict, -1 Hymn
-1 Deed
-1 Bog (I think this is too narrow to really be useful... post-board hate has always been enough for me vs dredge and its ilk)

+2 Eternal Witness
+2 Jitte
+1 Volrath's Stronghold

I really think you should test QP main, but I don't want to change your list too much... but if I were to fit them in I'd cut all the Verdicts, keep a full set or Hymns instead and throw 2 of these guys in together with the other changes

I really want to hash out the matchups too but I think that is for another time... I'll be back with my thoughts soon

[brianw712]

I hadn't taken a look at your mana requirements when I fist looked at the deck and I apologize for that. On that note, I'm wondering how the wastes are working out? do you need 4? it seems like they would come up and mess up a hand pretty easily. It's almost like they count as spells.

The Wastelands are a little iffy; sometimes they're awesome, othertimes the colorless mana really screws me over. I'll keep in them in for now, just because I like the Knight of the Reliquary + Wasteland mini-lock (it happens more often than you might think). Maybe I'll cut them down to three.

I'm wondering what the issue with Loam is. you look to have enough land to recover from DD as well as enough removal for their critters.

The issue is that Loam has such a good late game compared to The Rock. Countryside Crusher, Terravore, and Goyf can outgrow Doran, and sometimes even Knight. The list I was testing against didn't play Burning Wish or DD, so I'm not really sure if I could recover from DD or not. The Seismic Assault/Loam combo is almost always GG, and it takes two turns to Deed it away; meanwhile they've done another 6-12 damage to you. I guess the trick is to out-aggro them; disrupt them with Seizes, Hymns, and whatnot, Deed away Moxen, and keep them off enough mana to stop Loam shenanigans. Yea I know its kind of crazy to try to mana screw a Loam-based deck, but...I don't know, that's just the strategy that's been working for me.

One thing that I've noticed about the rock is that stumbling on mana the first 4 turns will spell death for you... With your strategy requiring many duals wasteland + stifle can be backbreaking (9 fetches), which is relevant as merfolk is very popular at the moment (I see aLOT of merfolk here in montreal). You are playing 23 lands, though, so maybe you've been able to draw out of mana denial? I'm playing 21 and its just about enough; with your low curve I definitely think you could cut a couple lands.

I don't know if my deck necessarily has a low curve. Yea it does have a bunch of 1 cc and 2 cc cards, but it also has a huge clump at 3 cc. 4 Doran, 4 Knight, 4 Deed (which, ideally, would require 5 mana for play + activate in the same turn), 2 Vindicate. I'm already mulliganing due to lack of colored sources more than I would like with 23 lands, and I think reducing the number to 21 would be detrimental. Although I do get flooded sometimes=\.

That being said, I would think about fitting in 1 or 2 Eternal Witness - these guys are great, mid game they buy back swords or discard as the situation warrants. In this case, cutting a land for a Stronghold would be fantastic - it sucks in your opener but if you are sticking with 23 that makes it 18 w/ 5 colourless sources which isnt too bad. It is just crazy with witness lategame when you need a little more reach than playing off the top, and doesn't completely fold to graveyard hate (which isn't that good against us anyway)

Witness seems alright, I'll test it. The problem is, the 2/1 body isn't very relevant, so sometimes I wonder if Regrowth is just better. Volrath's Stronghold recursion is awesome if it happens, but even if it does happen it's often win-more. Excluding the funny things that can happen against PainterStone (Knight fetching Stronghold right after they go off), the Stronghold recursion is really only relevant against Landstill, and even then it's not that great. I think I would rather keep my colored source to have a better game against Merfolk, Goblins, Canadian Thresh, and whatnot.

Is 4 Doran not too much? I would think about cutting him down to 2 or 3 while at the same time adding some more threats, as you are only running 12 which is VERY low. I am a big fan of Kitchen Finks, and Pridemage is awesome against soo much. While they may dilute the really powerful threats you are running, the addition of Jitte will give you real reach against almost all aggro and stomp them into the ground :D

I've been thinking the same thing about Doran. I may go down to 2-3 for 1-2 Tombstalker, but that puts me at greater risk for grave-hate post-board. Running only 12 threats hasn't been too much of a problem for me, since they're all game enders by themselves. Kitchen Finks is awesome, I know, but I just haven't found space for them. Pridemage is good, too, but I've never really been a fan of him, since, in creature combat, he's less than phenomenal. When attacking, there's not much difference between a 7/7 Knight and an 8/8 knight; however, when blocking, a 2/2 body just doesn't kill much. Plus adding more two-drops means more self-destruction when Deed is activated.

Here's what I would change, keeping in mind your tight curve from 1-3:
-1 Doran
-1 Gerrard's verdict, -1 Hymn
-1 Deed
-1 Bog (I think this is too narrow to really be useful... post-board hate has always been enough for me vs dredge and its ilk)

+2 Eternal Witness
+2 Jitte
+1 Volrath's Stronghold

Hmm, well I've already discussed Witness and Stronghold, but I haven't discussed Jitte yet. With the revised list that you propose, I'm running 13 threats, which is kind of low to be adding in equipment. Yes, Jitte is amazing if active, but is also a mana sink before then, and is antisynergistic with Deed. I've tried it in the side before, and most of the time I wished it was something else instead.

[damionblackgear]

On Loam - Why not run more vindicate's over deeds? All of our (the community's) lists are dropping in cost and there is nothing that survives a deed for 3 in your (you) deck right now, so why rely on it so heavily? I understand chalice for 1 hurts but you can beat that. Also, they can only recur their critters and you can fetch the bog when they try (or destroy the land then fetch it :-) so any dead non-critter is gone (baring the random witnesses).

Just wondering though, "What About Bob?" It may seem bad but, he draws you cards and you can swing with him. He's no Goyf but you can still swing him mighty 2'ly. Other threats show up sooner when you're drawing 2 a turn. You don't need to worry about your life, your deck's highest cost is 3. I have 4's & 5's in my rock build and still play him.

*that mini-lock is so much fun. I like it more to be an actual lock though.

[brianw712]

On Loam - Why not run more vindicate's over deeds? All of our (the community's) lists are dropping in cost and there is nothing that survives a deed for 3 in your (you) deck right now, so why rely on it so heavily? I understand chalice for 1 hurts but you can beat that. Also, they can only recur their critters and you can fetch the bog when they try (or destroy the land then fetch it :-) so any dead non-critter is gone (baring the random witnesses).

Vindicate over Deeds would help in the Loam matchup, but I just think that Deed is soooo much better in other matchups. Against Bant Countertop: Deeds destroy Hierarchs, Counterbalance, Goyfs, Pridemages. Survival Bant: Hierarchs, Pridemages, Goyfs, Survival. Goblins and Merfolk: Deed is actually pretty bad here, but Vindicate wouldn't be much better. Canadian Thresh: Yea I guess Deed and Vindicate would be about even here. Zoo: Deed is better. Stax, Landstill, Quinn, Enchantress, and other slow decks with lots of permanents: Deed is better, although Vindicate is pretty good here too. Dredge: Deed owns Zombie tokens. Aggro Loam: Vindicate is better, although Deed is still good. In short, there are a lot of matchups where both Vindicate and Deed are good, but more where Deed is a lot better. And anyway, I just bought my playset of Deeds, I want to use them=].

Just wondering though, "What About Bob?" It may seem bad but, he draws you cards and you can swing with him. He's no Goyf but you can still swing him mighty 2'ly. Other threats show up sooner when you're drawing 2 a turn. You don't need to worry about your life, your deck's highest cost is 3. I have 4's & 5's in my rock build and still play him.

Hmm, I'm not sure if Bob is good enough in such an aggressive metagame. He's got 1 toughness (Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator, any burn spell), 2 power (can't trade with most Zoo creatures, most Lord-pumped Merfolk, Rhox War Monk, Goyf, exalted Pridemage) and loses life for you (bad against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, possibly Canadian Thresh). Also, if I end up going -2 Doran +2 Tombstalker, then Bob becomes even riskier. Bob also needs a lot of time to work:

Bob survives 0 turns: He's a creature that drew removal. Decent.
Bob survives 1 turn: He's a Silvergill Adept that possibly lost you life, but also drew removal. Decent.
Bob survives 2 turns: He's a Night's Whisper on a body that drew removal. Good.
Bob survives 3 turns: He's awesome, you probably win the game if you aren't in a really bad position by now.

Again, 2 drop = antisynergistic with Deed.

Reading back over my posts, I realize that I might come off as a little stubborn, since I'm just rejecting all of these ideas=\. But I really do appreciate feedback, and even if I don't end up using a particular card in my deck, it might give me new ideas for what direction the deck should go in. I'll try to test as many of the community's ideas as possible with the time I have. So thanks.

[damionblackgear]

Again, 2 drop = antisynergistic with Deed.

Yet we play Goyf because he's the best 2 drop critter. The thing is that it's Bob is the best 2 drop black critter. Don't worry about it with Stalker though. I have two 5cc, three 4cc, and almost 1/2 my deck 3cc. Bob won't pose a threat to you a lot. I'm not big on TS though. It is good though. I just don't like the card very much.

Reading back over my posts, I realize that I might come off as a little stubborn, since I'm just rejecting all of these ideas=\. But I really do appreciate feedback, and even if I don't end up using a particular card in my deck, it might give me new ideas for what direction the deck should go in. I'll try to test as many of the community's ideas as possible with the time I have. So thanks.

No worries. Most of us are like that. the idea's are at least there though. That's what matters.

[brianw712]

Yet we play Goyf because he's the best 2 drop critter. The thing is that it's Bob is the best 2 drop black critter. Don't worry about it with Stalker though. I have two 5cc, three 4cc, and almost 1/2 my deck 3cc. Bob won't pose a threat to you a lot. I'm not big on TS though. It is good though. I just don't like the card very much.

After thinking about it for a while, I think I agree with you on Bob. I'm currently testing -3 Top +3 Bob. Although it might seem weird that I'm cutting one card and adding in another when those two cards work best together, I'm replacing Top with Bob because I think Bob does the same job but better. Bob doesn't need mana to work; Top does. Bob starts working the turn after you play him; Top usually starts to function well in the late game, when you have mana to spare, and when you're in topdeck mode. Bob draws removal, which is good; Top is bad in multiples (so is Bob most of the time, but at least you can get rid of one in combat). What sucks is that now my deck is almost 50% vulnerable to Spell Snare, but whatever, that isn't that big of an issue against most decks. And yea, I don't think I'll end up playing the Stalkers, since they're not that much better than Doran in the late game, but have the downside of not being castable as soon as possible.

[damionblackgear]

You'll have to let me know how 3 turns out. I run 4 and 3 Tops but I would like to know how someone else things about dropping it to 3 bobs.