It's a simple typing error on my part. A lot of my notes are short and brief, and i'm just copying and putting things together on my notes. I meant that I discarded them after I used my Chain of Vapor.Originally Posted by PaRa
EDIT: fixed previous post to prevent confusion.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Why did you side out a land vs. a deck with wastleland and dazes?
You sided completely wrong..
Umm because dropping from 15 to 14 isn't really a problem for me. Plus the deck that I faced probably has a ridiculous amount of anti graveyard hate, hence his opening plays?
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Here's a hint don't side out lands vs. wasteland/daze.
If the deck runs fine off of 14 lands why are you running 15?
The only reason I would run 15 is to fight all the waste/daze.
Ok crazy idea don't hate, has anyone ever tried Sharuum the Hegemon as both your DR targets or maybe bumping it to a 3 of.
I mean one BfB in the yard when you DR it with another in the yard is INFINITE tokens.
I fell like this give the deck a one card DR target to seal the deal. Still don't know if this is better then 1 Iona, 1 Chosen.
A vintage list that abuses Sharuum
This came from Matt Elias' current article on StarCityGames, Of Bazaars and Workshops.
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
3 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Possessed Portal
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Narcomoeba
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
1 Ancestral Recall
• Sharuum can return fast mana from the Graveyard to play, such as Black Lotus and Lion’s Eye Diamond. For example, imagine a turn in which you play Bazaar, and pass. At the end of the opponent’s turn, you will activate Bazaar of Baghdad and discard some number of Dredgers. On your Upkeep, you will repeat this process, and then replace your draw with another Dredge, hopefully hitting some number of Narcomoeba’s and putting Bloodghasts into your Graveyard. You can then play a land to bring back the Bloodghast(s) and Unearth Fatestitcher to untap Bazaar and Dredge twice more. Provided that you’re able to get to three creatures between Fatestitcher, Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, or zombie tokens created by Cabal Therapy / Bridge from Below, you can then play Dread Return on Sharuum. If you have Black Lotus or Lion’s Eye Diamond in your Graveyard along with at least one more Fatestitcher, you would target those with Sharuum’s trigger, using the mana to chain together Fatestitcher activations to Dredge out the entire deck on the second turn of the game. This process makes this one of the faster and more consistent Dredge decks in Vintage.
• Sharuum can also function as a quick and easy win in the same way as Sadistic Hypnotist should you flip Possessed Portal into your Graveyard. For those that are unfamiliar with it, Possessed Portal is an artifact from Mirrodin block that costs 8 mana, so you know it has to be insane. It functions as a lock piece by preventing either player from drawing any more cards.
• Sharuum can also be used to create an infinite number of Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below. When you Dread Return on Sharuum, you choose a second Sharuum with the trigger from the first Sharuum. Because Sharuum is legendary, they’ll both be destroyed, stacking Bridge triggers and Sharuum triggers. You then just loop this process until you feel you have a large enough zombie army… although, can one ever really have a large enough zombie army? This arbitrarily large zombie army can win the game immediately if you have access to Alter of Dementia with Sharuum, as you can mill away the opponent’s entire library. Alter also serves as a way of flipping your own cards into the graveyard early if you’re digging for additional combo pieces.
I know some of you might yell and say this is a vintage deck but it can carry over and its a whole different way to attack building your deck I mean if someone sleeved up a 75 with 3 Sharuum the Hegemon, 1 Altar of Dementia in it I would not second guess them.
Thoughts?
Last edited by jimirynk; 01-27-2010 at 11:40 AM.
My thoughts... are that this is the coolest thing I've seen in M:tG aside from the Worldgorger Dragon combo. The best thing about Sharuum is the word 'may' on it, so you are never in the position of drawing the game by combo-ing.
So, coolness aside, what does running Sharuum gain us? It gives us access to infinite red-zone damage, which is probably win-more, but isn't useless. With Altar of Dementia, we can win without swinging, which is GREAT. Infinite zombie tokens have trouble attacking with Propaganda on the table, and look really stupid with Elephant Grass out. With the Sharuum/Sharuum/Bridge/Altar combo, Dredge can win with Grass on the table. Pretty nifty.
What does Sharuum lose us? Probably consistency. It's a worthless DR target unless there's another artifact in the graveyard, so there will be times when you could have gone off with a Flame-kin Zealot in the yard, but can't because you have Sharuum instead. Running the package you suggested (3 Sharuum and 1 Altar) means cutting something else out of an already tight deck, which is some more consistency lost no matter what it is you are cutting.
This is just theorycrafting though. I'm gonna hit MWS with this, just to confuse people with infinite zombies.
"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
-Sun Tzu
I tried it in a local Legacy tournament even though it was an LED built last weekend so this doens't really belongs here..
My results where very random...2 : 1 : 2 in total...
1:1 vs Reanimator (still can't believe this was even possible...)
2:0 vs Goblins
2:0 vs Soldiers
1:1 vs CB Bant
0:2 vs Goblins (mull to 4 in first game / bad mistakes from my side in game 2..)
I was only able to use the combo once vs the Soldiers in a situation where i would have won the game anyway...
Sure Sharuum creates situations like: return sharuum, return LED, sac LED, play DA to go off again but this would have done a Sphinx also.
Iona is in my eyes the better choice and for the combo you need 5 slots 3x Sharuum, 1x Possesses Portal, 1x Altar of Dementia
It was a funny try and all people where looking like "wtf is he playing there" but i wasn't too happy with the result.
In the LED less built i see even less use of it
Instead of just throwing short sentences and throwing hints. Why don't you be more constructive and say what you would have had sided out on that game vs the slivers? Even then the opponent drew and played quite a bit of hate on his 1st two turns, that I just find it overwhelming.
I took out one of each of the land/discard outlet/draw... to pretty much keep up the ratio on those categories. As those ratio has been working for me just fine. When I picked up the deck, I learned quite a great deal of info from people here that I actually copied and pasted what they said in case I need some refreshing. Granted I probably may have made a mistake here and there, since I am not them, but I just tried to use what they had said as a guideline. I am sure what they would do is different, but I use what they said as a simple guide.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post405373
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post403963
It's why I took out one of each piece so that I don't subtract from 1 category too much that I end up diluting the deck with Sb cards. I Also feel that dropping to 14 is safe, as some list also run 14 some less. Heck, what you said was also saved in my pad...
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post405292
The reason why I am also running 15 lands, is not to fight waste/daze. But my list before was a 15/15/15 split, but over time, i started toying with things. But Having 15 felt more consistent in finding 1 land in my opening, which is something I appreciate. I probably should have added a 12th dredger, but since I was going on an unknown meta. I decided to do a little bit of tweaking.
But instead of just quick short replies and throwing "hints" which kinda felt a bit condescending to me at the time. Please be a little bit more constructive, and maybe actually say "if it was me I would have take this out"... instead of just saying something like "You sided completely wrong.."
But regardless, versus that counter slivers match up, the guy drew and played so much hate the 1st 2 turns, that I was just overwhelmed. Wasteland, relic, crypt, daze... *sigh*
EDIT: Regarding Sharuum
I think it's a pretty neat idea but I can't see any justification running it. It would require quite a bit of slots to be freed since we are adding 1 or 2 of it, and quite possibly increasing DR count by 1? Plus, I believe and most everyone also does, when the opponent can't stop you from resolving dread return, you've pretty much won.
Last edited by Zappa; 01-27-2010 at 06:24 AM. Reason: Added comments regarding Sharuum.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Yeah, but Zealot needs at least 2 Bridges in the grave to win, possibly 3 if met with any resistance. The Altar + Sharuum plan actually sounds ok, with 2 Sharuum in the grave + 1 Bridge you get infinite tokens. That is the same requirements as to have 1 Zealot + 2 Bridges... 1 Sharuum + Altar of Dementia nets you some nift amount of card in the grave that might (or not) get you the combo online. Sounds like a decent plan... gets extra style points too.
This Sharuum plan is intensely cool. So cool in fact, that it unquestionably falls under the categorization of "The Danger of Cool Things." Infinite zombies? This seems jawdroppingly cool, but extremely ineffective. Ask yourselves how many games would you have won if you had infinite zombies in play as opposed to 3-4 plus your Ichorids/Bloodghasts/FKZ/Imp, etc. I imagine if you are being honest, then the answer is "not many games." Infinite unhasted zombies does nothing to improve the problematic game 1 matchups (Enchantress with Grass, Lands with Chasm, ANT with speed, etc.) and everything to coolify the already winnable aggro matchups. If there was a way to streamline Altar of Dementia AND Sharuum, then that and that alone would give Ichorid a powerful kill mechanism; winning without attacking on the same turn in which you combo out. Yet, it is a whopping 5 card combo, even though a number of those combo pieces have to be in your yard.
Games 2 and 3 are much worse for the Sharuum combo. You have to play conservatively and intelligently in these 2 games (hopefully just one if you ended up winning the first pre-sideobarded game). Sharuum, being a combo that requires 1) 1 Bridge, 2) 2 Sharuum's, 3) 1 Dread Return in the graveyard is never going to get online. Your yard is going to get removed before you can get the combo online. If your opponent can remove one of your Sharuum's off of an early dredge, then your second Sharuum becomes useless, and your DR is left to target Grave-Troll, as opposed to something more useful like FKZ, Hypnotist, Iona, etc. And god forbid you don't have a hand with Altar of Dementia.
All in all the combo is definitely cool, but this is not the deck to support it. There is probably a deck out there that could use the Sharuum recursion trick, either as an alternate or primary kill mechanism. Ichorid is not that deck. It is tight on card slots as is, and the Sharuum combo disrupts that tightness. Moreover, in games 2 and 3, you have to be slow and consistent, waiting to speed up in a moment of opponent weakness. The Sharuum combo is not conducive towards this strategy. Once combo pieces are removed from your deck, the remaining ones become increasingly useless. This lowers your chances of winning the already difficult games 2 and 3, something that Dredge, arguably the most hated deck in the format, cannot afford.
Theorycrafting is highly productive, and do not interpret my words as condescending towards efforts that seek to improve this deck. Sharuum, however, is not the way to do that.
-ktkenshinx-
Shaarum combo does not fit the LED-less builds obvsiouly. You want to be able to reanimate Shaarum raise LED from the dead, flashback Deep Analysis or unearth Fatestitcher in order to continue digging and finally reanimate another Shaarum FTW.
It does not seem it really needs Bridge to win, since Sharuum would enable to continue dredging via LED.
I'm not an Ichorid specialist, but it looks like it's the only way LED-Ichorid can beat LED-less.
I mean if I played Sharuum it would look something like this off the bat.
It gives us game vs. Echantress, lands, and propaganda effect.
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Altar of Dementia
4 Bridge from From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
sb
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Cephalid Coliseum
But it does so much more it gives you an auto win g1 by playing 1 card.. Just therapy for force if you see no STP win the game or if you have 2 therapy name both if you have 2 DR name swords IT DOESN'T MATTER.
How many games have you lost to double force and the got board position and you could only dredge during your upkeep?
I had Iona/chosen in the deck to try to get myself out of sticky situations with the correct out but this looks crazy enough to be legit.
I've been actually running this combo for a while, and I find 2x sharuum + 1x akroma's memorial to be superior. In many cases, you will not find both sharuums in your graveyard, and having 1x sharuum + 4-6 hasted flying zombies is far better than 1x sharuum + an altar.
The main reason for playing iona over other Dread Return targets is that she can shut down the game of your opponent as soon she drops the field and is immune to his.
Sharuum gets hit by so many cards in Legacy (unlike in Vintage where i really like it) just like Qasali Pridemage, the worst nightmare...killing Sharuum and removing bridges in one move...
I tried the deck and as i wrote i only got the combo online once out of 12 games..I could have recurred an Iona several times just to swing for the win if i had Iona instead of Sharuum...
Still i like the idea and i would love to see it work but it won't become the deck to beat.
I'm not saying run sharuum for a cool win more but it allows us with altar to win the turn you DR a target WITHOUT ATTACKING thats huge for are wost matchups.
Now I just have to test to see if the deck wants LED's..
SHHHH ppl I know what thread I'm in but I'm trying to stay up to date with the meta game.
How do you guys beat a game 1 MOAT, BLAZING ARCHON, ELEPHANT GRASS, PROPAGANDA, GLASHAL CHASLM , or TABERNACLE?
I'm not saying this is the only right call but it looks like a great way to beat are worst matchups.
You need to cite this. This came from Matt Elias' current article on StarCityGames, Of Bazaars and Workshops. You should probably go edit that into your post.
InfoNinjas
yes it's cool and frankly it's more win-more than anything but if you're concerned about those cards that you'll including 4 cards in an already tight list then you're hitting a fly with a shotgun, also lol ^^
Doesn't give you the game against enchantress at all. Enchantress plays Solitary Confinement, Seals, Aura of Silence. Not mentionning the antigraveyard enchantments it plays very often MD.
^^
In order for the Sharuum combo to work, you need to have a lot of stuff in your graveyard. You need at least 1 DR, both Sharuum's, 1 Altar, and 1 Bridge. In games 2 and 3, your opponent will be packing hatred to remove your graveyard at a moment's notice. You need to be able to play around this, not be at its mercy. If the opponent removes your graveyard the instant he sees Sharuum hit it, then your combo is utterly sunk, and you have just wasted 3 slots on useless cards (2 Sharuum and 1 Altar). This lowers your already diminished chances of winning the post-sideboarded games.
The prevailing game 1 strategy is just to race these threats. Reanimator does not maindeck Blazing Archon (at least, the vast majority of builds do not), so he is not really a concern. Moat and Elephant Grass are essentially unique to Enchantress, which is clearly a tough matchup no matter what you do. Chasm and Tabernacle are easily answerable with a Realm Razer in games 2 and 3. As to Propaganda, you will notice that this card is predominantly a sideboard card, and thus not really a consideration in game 1.How do you guys beat a game 1 MOAT, BLAZING ARCHON, ELEPHANT GRASS, PROPAGANDA, GLASHAL CHASLM , or TABERNACLE?
How do you win? Be creative. Be smart. My opponent once got out 2 Ghostly Prisons in a Stax game. I used Dakmor Salvage recursion and 2 other lands to pay the cost and beat him to death with a resurrected Grave Troll, using Therapy to prevent the opponent from using Geddon. Opponent has Tabernacle? Hold out for an FKZ combo win. Moat getting you down? Soar over it with Iona. These games are not unwinnable, and even if they were (which they are not), they are few and far between.
While it might help some of the worst matchups a little, it harms our better matchups by removing consistency and further opening the deck up to graveyard hatred. Hate can be played around, but only with intelligent and conservative play. The Sharuum combo is just not conducive towards that strategy.I'm not saying this is the only right call but it looks like a great way to beat are worst matchups.
-ktkenshinx-
Your hating on it so hard with out even testing it..
You say it hurts consistency when it only requires 2 additional slots.
Games 2/3 I have everything else in the board unless your playing vs. the matchups you need sharuum in.
I'm not saying go out and run this but you just sound foolish for fighting against a card you have put 0 testing in with and not a single person up here has posted results with them MD in a tournament..
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote