So I was trying to see some examples of the white splash that have top 8ed a major event, went all the way back to GP Chicago, and saw only one, which had a very light splash for Syg. Thoughts? I see one of a few reasons for this:
1. Cost- Merfolk as a relatively cheap deck is piloted by players who can't/won't shell out the money for Tundras, fetches, etc.
2. Drowned in a Sea of U- The mono U version has so many more pilots that the U/w is not seen. This seems unlikely as the better decks should rise to the top, leading to...
3. Bad- The reason the U/w isn't in the top 8 is because despite all of the positives, the prevalence of wasteland/stifle/mana denial keeps the power of Swords/Absolute Law/Sygg etc. in check and stops them from mattering.
Does anyone have any insight? I doubt number 2 is the answer. While number one could be a viable answer, it would seem to me that the "power of the white splash" is in fact a trap.
I think it's a little bit of all 3, with another reason mixed in. The main reason, IMHO, is that the deck is so ridiculously streamlined as a mono-color, synergestic, low mana cost machine that probably superior cards just don't seem worth the splash. The deck works so tight in its monocolor incarnation that it's just not worth it to mess with it.
OK, I am really interested in what Azdreal had to say here. I am pretty sure I have never ever tested Chalice of the Void. Optimally it would be useful beyond the Zoo matchup, and that is where I am unsure. But before I have anything to say about that, let me say that I think it looks brilliant against Zoo on the surface. Looking at the Zoo thread, most decks seem to be using about 2 Grips and perhaps EE in the side in addition to the 4 Pridemages in the main. For my monoblue build, I would gladly side out 4x Cursecatcher and 3 x Stifle for 4x Chalice and 3x Submerge or something like that. A Chalice leaves them with, what...Fireblast and Helix for removal? I can live with that. The only card that is really hit on our side is Vial, but since Vial is best on turn 1 and Chalice is a turn 2 play... :)
Chalice also comes in against which decks?
Burn? yes
Goyfsligh? yes
ANT? uncomfortable with the need for Cursecatchers and Stifle as well. Could be set to zero pretty easily. This may need some serious testing, but it looks decent.
Loam decks? I think I usually get to 4 mana in these games. Could work. Nice against Ancient Grudge in those matches too.
I have not tried it at all, though. Are there any glaring weaknesses in this plan, or has the answer been staring us all in the face for freaking ages?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I played CotV in goblins for a very long time. I know it is not the same thing, but I have picked up a few things about the card that I would like to share that may help others draw better conclusions.
Firstly, I think you will be happy with its performance against ANT. Goblins always had the best bet when 4 CotV were paired with 3-4 of another hate card. The reason this is is that CotV allows you to goldfish but still disrupt. Setting it for 0 is usually the best play against storm decks. In Merfolk, I see this working out beautifully. Turn 1 CotV set at 0 along with a cursecatcher is a beating. You can set it at 0 later in the game, but it is up to the ANT player to win the game fast, becauseif it goes too long, they will be overwhemled by your hordes. It's a great card for the combo matchup, in conjunction with other hate cards (which merfolk plays as it plays blue, unlike goblins).
However, I have found it to be very disappointing in the zoo/goyfsligh matchup with goblins. This matchup plays very definitely for merfolk so I'm not sure how applicable this is. But in testing of that matchup, it is a huge tempo sink. While they are establishing board position by turn two, you lay a chalice for 1 on turn two. Pathetic. However I like the idea of it combined with mana denial, effectively making it so they can't cast anything that casts 1 or 3 (this would only apply to zoo).
I never actually tested it against loam decks as I feel that is the wrong direction to attack loam with goblins. However, merfolk is obviously a different deck. But I've personally always tried to capitalize on their tempo sinks and their virtual time walks with goblins, and I think the same may apply to merfolk. Chalice is just like playing their game, and they play their game the best.
One deck you didn't mention Finn was tempo thresh. I found it to be pretty good against them on the play with goblins, but very average on the draw. Tempo thresh players always have the mentality to expect hate against green decks (aka choke or something like it). However, I think very few of them are prepared for the beating that is CotV from goblins or merfolk. The ability to singehandedly fuck up all their plans (something tempo thresh players love to do, make long term plans) is very powerful, regardless of the visible effects it has on the field. And with the noticeable trend away from bounce and towards vendilion clique, I think it gets even better.
I can also tell you from my goblins experience that the incompatibility with lackey/vial is worth it for the combo and tempo thresh matchups. In merfolk, this would be cursecatcher/vial and possibly stifle. I'm not sure how much help the deck really needs with the combo matchup and I think spelll pierce may be a more versatile answer for the board for the same matchups and more, but CotV has strong applications against storm, heavy burn strategies, tempo thresh, and sometimes random shit you would never expect. It is a ballbuster and unexpected.
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Ok thx for having answered dudes.
It is true that it seems (at least "on the paper") a very good option against numerous deck (like Burn and ***** and any randoms), Zoo and would increase our Mu against Combo which was not that good so far.
Thx for giving a testing comparison with Cotv In Goblin with the Zoo Mu FoulQ, but I think Merfolk could cope with Zoo until the first Cotv lands on the board (obvs, it needs a turn 1 or 2, 3 would be too late I presume) contrary to Goblin. We have Fow, and maybe Daze would still be in g2 game if we side in Cotv. And siding in more Submerge would definitely slowdown our opponnent 'till Cotv arrives. I'd also like to see a turn1 stifle on his fetch, and turn 2 Cotv, but maybe i'm dreaming
A big question too would be: does the Zoo players always sidein Krosan and EE assuming we are playing only Vial and maybe Jitte (which btw he can obliterate with his Jitte as well)
I'm used to play ANT.deck and had a few games yesterday against Merfolk, I won the g1 quite easily, and in g2 my opponent side-in a couple of thorn and chalice, which I did not see coming in a Merfolk side at all, and then I lose the g2. (well the good story is that g3 was full of Hurkyll and ET)
So It can obvs provok quite a surprise.
I'm gonna for many test right now
if your willing to board CTOV just to set it at 1 against zoo, (fish doesn't need help against combo anyways)
you'd probably be better off boarding in EE and popping it for 1 to get rid of those pests for good including the one they already have in play since T1
Just my 2 cents, I don't really think either is a good option, I would say something about powder keg but with all the quasali pridemage it just seems silly to have to wait for it
I feel a little nervous posting here since I know I'm not that amazing of a player...I play a very basic merfolk build (Jitte mainboard; Kira sideboard; 1 wakethrasher, 2 sovereign, 2 mainboard echoing truth). But I really want to try both using the new lifelinky merfolk and trying to incorperate a counter-top build into the deck. Furthermore, I think Treasure Hunt looks pretty darned nice.
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Treasure Hunt or Standstill (90% probably standstill...)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Merrow Rejeery
3 Cursecatcher
2 Sejiri Merfolk
2 Silvergill Adept
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Aether Vial
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
10 Island
Sideboard:
2 Echoing Truth
2 Thada Adel
2 Propoganda
2 Hydroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Kira
2 Path to Exile (preferred over swords for last minute shuffling of my own deck just in case)
The other thing I wanted to bring up was Teferi's Response. I know; it seems extremely odd...but I have problems in my meta versus Sinkhole (especially EvaGreen) and Wasteland hurts Mutavault so much...drawing 2 cards and cancelling the effect for 2 mana seems very strong. Its conditional...but it would only be a sideboard card and it can always be pitched to force of will if need be.
EDIT: Oooh Enlightened Tutor is white...and can guarantee either 1 or 2 on top (or 3, with Prop in deck).
I'd be tempted to side in a random 4 drop artifact or enchantment against Pro-Bant if I ran enlightened tutors though...
Last edited by kitsunewarlock; 01-28-2010 at 02:27 PM.
Well, I haven't tested it much either, but I suggested it (mainly against Zoo and ANT) about four months ago after seeing it in a top 8 sideboard on DeckCheck. I guess I just wanted to point that out...
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I’m pretty sure we’ve been over this before.
But if we need another refresher in the Merfolk thread (it cycles anyway, usually every 50-70 pages strangely enough):
Goyf Sligh: when is the last time goyf sligh had any significant placing in any event? Let’s call it zoo and lump them together.
Burn: Chalice @1 shuts down some of their burn, but not the burn they play first turn. And they are going to learn to burn you on your turn when you cast Chalice. If you yearn to beat the burn then you must discern that your sideboard has to yearn to be filled with more powerful answers. Misdirections and Diverts can upturn their burn, while Spell Pierce and BEB earn a 1 for 1. Chalce @ 1 at best stops their cheap burn drawn after your 2nd turn.
Zoo: By turn 2 they get their 1 drop out (or even 2-3 one drop creatures). If it’s a Pyromancer you more or less lose anyway. If it’s a horde of giant creatures, you’re up a creek. If you really waste your 2nd turn mana against zoo to not set up board position or answer their creatures, you’re losing. It’s a terrible top deck and doesn’t hurt their bigger creatures.
ANT: So, merfolk have this amazing matchup against ANT, better than any other deck in the game, statistically better. Almost unwinnable for the ANT player (at least in recent tournament play). Why do you need to have more sideboard cards against it? Sure, it is another way to shut them down, but honestly, how much do you need to cock block them?
Loam: Setting this to 2 against loam seems good, but their creatures and Seismic Assault beat the crap out of your lategame anyway. 4 lands doesn’t happen by 4th turn unless you have a really bad hand, and by the 6th or so turn shutting down their engine is usually not good enough. I would rather run Relics and Crypts and graveyard hate instead. Bounce also helps against things like Crusher.
I’m pretty sure being cynical about it doesn’t count. Also, it has been discussed since at least page 30 as a sideboard against burn, whereas this quote is around page 100:Well, I haven't tested it much either, but I suggested it (mainly against Zoo and ANT) about four months ago after seeing it in a top 8 sideboard on DeckCheck. I guess I just wanted to point that out...
Ok, after taking a look at Lybaert's list, I really need some explanation: WTF is up with the 4 Chalices in his sideboard? Is this just for Combo-hate or something? I'm having a hard time seeing how Chalice would be useful in a deck like his, that plays 12 one-drops... I mean, is it just in the sideboard to be played at zero or something???
Obviously, he's a good player, he knows what he's doing I'm sure... But exactly which matchups would Chalice of the Void improve??
I am not convinced either way as of yet. But since Zoo (and yes Goyf Sligh in this boat) is a crappy matchup, and this is a monoblue solution, and the benefits are huge, and there is no real down side to finding out for sure, I think this deserves a fair amount of research.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I'd be excited to hear if it tests well... It definitely looks pretty cute against Zoo and TempoThresh, and having extra hate against combo is just extra gravy.
I think testing would have to show it to be real good to be worth the space though, because by its nature, you pretty much have to run the full four copies to use it effectively. Not to mention that you also sort of need to mull into it when you side it in, because after a while it's going to start looking like a dead draw.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I quite agree for going into tests. And yes, it would be a "having Cotv in main hand" or "I'm completely ***** position".
Against Zoo, we don't really care about their first turn creature, we would still submerge or ET it, or even counter it if we have Cotv main hand.
Then after the only threat would be Qasali and Tarmo. But anyway we would be free and in a lull to build our army up without fearing 16 removals@1.
I spoke against ANT, because in my country, the metagame is infested with it (full ANT build, so I suppose more constan)t, and generally it is not that easy to beat them. I would even say it is a 60/40 for the ANT player in g1, and even worse in g2. Some people even begins to play Spell Pierce MD because of that. But anyway..
that was my 2cents.
It seems everyone is in agreement: Someone else should test this card.
Heh. I had that same thought last night.
I am doing so right now, but sb testing on MWS needs time and luck.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Same thing too...
wanted MWS to be full with zoo players :(
ok, first off i know this is the merfolf thread...
i play merfolk and ant bc i refuse to use goyf, but i am newer to merfolk...i have been using it for about 3 months, previously i was a combo player for a couple years i guess. basically i wanted something new so i tried merfolk.
i chose to pick up merfolk bc of its success, the deck is also fun to use and i had all the cards for it sitting in my binder - some uncommons.
now on to the reason of this post...
why doesnt slivers/meathooks have the success merfolk does?
i mean is it rly just the manabase, bc i was debating who had better ablilities and i think its slivers basically bc of crystalline sliver...
both would run around 20 creatures
SLIVER
Mucle
Sinew
crystaline
winged
MERFOLK
Reejerey
loA
silvergill
sovereign/thrasher
cursecatcher
clearly cursecather is a better 1 drop then any sliver i could think of...both have 2 pumping creaturs, and flying is acually better in the worse matchups for merfolk, while still being good vs merfolks good matchups... merfolk has CA though with silvergill.
besides the creature base the entire deck can be exactly the same, which makes the availibility of the extra blue card in had to pitch for force more the viable.
hope people know something i dont... or have a good point that im missing.
also this post basically means they need to make a crystalline merfolk :)
Slivers run 3-4 colors. Merf does not. Max is prolly 2. It has a good strategy in mana-denial which is very very good against Slivers.
I tested Meathooks for some time and I came to the conclusion that despite the fact that Crystalline Sliver is good, the mana is the real problem. With Wasteland being one of the most popular cards in the format its hard to not run into non-basic hate. In addition when you don't have Aether Vial Meathooks can get really awkward. In Merfolk when they waste you they hit a Mutavault. In Meathooks they hit a dual land and hard casting your creatures can become a problem as opposed to the 12 or so basic islands that you run in Merfolk.
could you guys please critique my list
14 [BD] Island (3)
1 [9E] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [M10] Merfolk Sovereign
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [WWK] Sejiri Merfolk
// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [WWK] Treasure Hunt
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
on the cotv note it does help your combo match up a ton ,becuse you basicly put it on 0 and they cant go off as fast since they only run 16 lands in there deck .
Last edited by obituary 95; 02-02-2010 at 01:23 AM.
I don't think Cotv main deck is worth it, even if you played it at zero. (I think it is even worse then)
Cotv should be thought to be played @1 in Sb agaisnt most zoo MU and zero against combo yep, but not main deck!
I don't see any Vial in your list, what's the point?
What's the point of having treasure hunt too in a deck where you played 20 creatures and 21 spells...?
Counterspell seems a bit random as well.
+ no waste, no muta, no adept...
Jitte never, never is played x4. It's a legendary. You don't want to see 3 of them in a game.
I think you should concentrate on more "common" Merfolk lists.
Last edited by Azdraël; 02-03-2010 at 04:06 AM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
