Pretty much janky & terrible, clearly danger of cool things.Originally Posted by Shanghi Knights
Are there any specific questions people want to have addressed in the primer? I was thinking of the following structure:
Brief history
Decklist
Card Choices
General Strategy
Matchups
Common Questions
I should be able to finish it over the weekend.
Seems fair enough for me. Just don't forget to make a comprehensive matchup report where you implement the most important decks and those which are on the rise like UW NOGOYF!!
Team Legal Actions.
I actually haven't tested the U/W Tempo matchup very much. Feedback from people who have would be appreciated (especially from Aggro Loam's point of view).
I would imagine Treasure Hunt being a better option. http://sales.starcitygames.com//card...product=171651
But that would probably need another approach like Seismic Assault & Swans of Bryn Argoll combo. There is such a deck somewhere on the forum if I remember correctly.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Well, I've been playing Aggro Loam for a while, and after some testing, I found this list pretty solid. Not sure tho...
List:
Lands:
3- Taiga
1- Volrath's Stronghold (can be replaced imo)
4- Wooded Foothills
4- Tranquill Thicket
4- Wasteland
1- Forest
1- Mountain
1- Bayou
1- Badlands
2- Bloodstained Mire
2- Forgotten Cave
2- Verdant Catacombs
1- Barren Moor
Creatures:
4- Tarmogoyf
4- Dark Confidant
1- Terravore
3- Countryside Crusher (beast, should i play four?)
Spells:
4- Chalice of the Void
4- Mox Diamond
3- Life from the Loam
3- Burning Wish
2- Pernicious Deed
2- Maelstrom Pulse
2- Seismic Assault
1- Devastating Dreams
1- Worm Harvest
Sideboard:
4- Leyline of the Void
3- Krosan Grip
3- Firespout
1- Hull Breach
1- Deathmark (i don't know if Perish is better, haven't tested it)
1- Chainer's Edict (kind of progenitus hate)
1- Life from the Loam
1- Devastating Dreams
I've tested several times against Goblins and Zoo, and it seems that Firespout is a must need. I've lost a lot of matches to ANT and other combo decks, but that's kind of expected.
Please give me your opinion :D
To me it seems like this deck has a couple of open slots, and 2-4 of them should go to sweepers. Is this correct? There are a couple of options available, and the common one's seem to be:
Devastating Dreams
Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed
Firespout
DD should wreck most aggro strategies, right? Though it's awful to get it countred, which makes it less appealing against Merfolk, Fae (prominent in Sweden, also, a lot of the really skilled players run it so you see it in a lot of it among the top tables) and Tempo *****-style decks.
EE makes for good precision, but might not handle a board full of diverse threats or other problems (like Goblins or Enchantress, which also can be seen in my meta).
Deed seems nice, handles a lot and with no downsides; except you might have to blow up your Diamonds and Chalices, which could be pretty ugly :/
Firespout only handles creatures, but doing that very well. Might not be playable maindeck?
So, sweepers are needed (at least in my meta) but they all have great upsides and annoying downsides. I do have a tendency to go all-in even when it's not needed, so DD might not be the right card for me (losing games due to lack of skills, courage and patience), though I do love the synergy and the effect. Deed seems very good, but might suck in practice, making it having basically the same downside as DD but with less upside. Ahhh, it's a tough choice. Someone playtest all of these and got any reliable results?
...
On another note, how do people feel about Raven's Crime? I have always wanted to play that in a Loam-deck, but is it Best Case Scenario Mentality? (to borrow a term from the Limited Resources podcast)
What I've always enjoyed/found useful is strategies for different matchups + sideboard straegies + key cards in your deck and key cards in opponent's deck for each matchup. It's just never done anymore but it's very useful to get an understanding of the matchups.
Thanks for the effort!
Robrecht
Hi, I've had this deck built for ages but never really play it. Based on some curious results I've been seeing I have a question...
Why aren't winning lists playing burning wish anymore?
Is it only out of fear of countertop?
Should the best answer to any situation really be removed? I haven't tested with the deck in ages so I don't know how ruff the match up can be; can someone please elaborate?
Also, do people still stack the triggers the same way? I mean, if I have a crusher and bob out together, I normaly stack bob first then crusher, so that I always draw a buisness spell with bob. Is this still the generaly accepted way of doing it? (of course situational, like if you're sitting low on life I wouldn't... lets assume you still have 10-15 life).
Thanks in advance,
edit..
Additionaly- do most people try and lay a crusher on turn 3, without loam in hand? It just seems irritating that it takes a while to get another land drop.
@ Wish: This has been discussed previously, but the gist of it is that Wish is slow, not very powerful, eats up huge chunks of sideboard, and is redundant with a lot of answers you should already have in the main. Wish was never an answer to Counterbalance and is especially bad in a format where Spell Snare is one of the best counters.
@ triggers: It's situational. Sometimes you may actually want to draw a land for some reason (usually not having Loam or wanting to use Loam for cycling lands), so you stack to let Bob resolve first. There's really no hard-and-fast rule for doing it and knowing which to resolve first is one of the finer strategy points for the deck.
@ turn three Crusher: Also situational. Typically not good against Daze decks unless you have four mana up. Typically not good against Zoo unless you have Chalice, or four mana and a cycling land / fetch. Decent against slower decks as most of these don't like having that much pressure early and you can usually do well enough on three mana in those matchups.
EDIT: Let me elaborate a little more on the triggers issue. I say all of this with the caveat that the decisions here change a lot in a matchup-dependent way that would take a lot of time to explain and is best discovered through playtesting.
- It is almost always best to let Bob resolve first if you are facing fast pressure or are worried about burn. Your deck should be more than 50% zero-cost cards, so in many cases you will take no damage from Bob if you do this.
- If you have Loam, the math changes. How many cycling lands do you have, how much mana, and where is Loam currently? In most cases, if you have three cycling lands, Loam in hand, and enough mana to play Loam and then cycle three times, there's very little difference in practice between the two trigger orders. You can get Crusher to at least +3/+3 off of cycle to draw, cycle to draw , cycle to dredge (and often you end up with +4/+4 this way).
- If you have to dredge Loam back first, it changes again. What do you need most right now? You'll be drawing two cards off of three cycling lands. If you're looking for something specific, having Bob resolve first, then Crusher lets you see the top card so you know whether to draw (you found what you wanted) or dredge (you didn't). If you're not looking for anything specific, there's not much difference unless you want to draw a business spell and feel you have enough of a life buffer to do so.
- If you have fewer than three cycling lands, what other lands are you going to get back? A fetch will also boost Crusher. In most cases, Loam, cycle, dredge, Loam, cycle, dredge puts a lot of lands into the graveyard to feed Crusher, so there's no reason not to let Crusher resolve first to try to find more cycling lands for Loam (getting you back to the first scenario: Loam and 3x cycle lands). You'll be drawing less business while cycling and dredging that heavily, so Bob's ability to find some spells is always appreciated.
- If you don't have Loam, the decision becomes based on how badly you need it. If you're facing pressure on your mana because of Wasteland/Stifle, you probably want to draw off of Bob first to get some more lands and hope Crusher mills you to Loam. If you aren't, or you have plenty of mana already, you want to let Crusher do his thing first because you get better growth returns that way (it's not that likely you'll draw Loam if you stack Bob on top). If you need Loam to apply pressure in the form of Wasteland disruption, you may still want to stack Crusher on top so you hit a spell off of Bob. Even if you don't get Loam, you'll have a bigger Crusher in most cases, which isn't something the opponent wants to see either.
- Other scenarios: if you're going for the kill, always stack Crusher on top. If you're on the defensive, it's usually correct to stack Bob on top to minimize damage (Crusher with one or two counters beats up most threats in the format anyway. Even if he's the biggest wall ever, he can still only block one thing at a time). If Bob is going to die this turn to EE or Dreams, stack Crusher on top to get the most value out of him. There are probably also a few more corner-case scenarios I can't think of off the top of my head, but if someone gives me one I can analyze it.
The primer will be done this weekend. I didn't finish it last weekend and will be busy with work this week, so I doubt I'll finish it until then.
Man, I'm looking forward it as my own list is evolving slowly.
Will you open a new thread for it?
Maybe this one is a bit "worn out" and we can celebrate the newly acquired dtw status with a fresh thread a lil'
Team Legal Actions.
Actually, it's looking more and more likely to be finished early next week. I've got to write grants this weekend, so I doubt I'll be able to finish it to my satisfaction.
=/
I PM'd Nihil about a new thread but haven't heard back from him yet.
Why did the deck migrate from Thoughtseize/Duress package main to Chalice of The Void main?
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Because your big beaters cry when your opponent casts Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
By the same logic wouldnt you just be able to thoughtseize/duress whatever relevant things they may have (swords, creatures, combo pieces)
To me, Thoughtseize & Duress just seem more versatile than Chalice, but granted you can just set Chalice @ 0 and Chalice @ 1 vs combo and win w/ Bob beats.
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Chalice stops ALL copies of ccX stuff you laid it out for. Duress/thoughtseize stops ONE copy. Sure you can duress them, and drop your fatty, they play cantrips (which are usually the same cc as the removal) and just look for another one. Yeah, discard is that bad in comparison to chalice.
Also as you pointed out chalice has the ability to stop whole decks nearly by itself. (byebye Canadian Threshold - byebye Combo - byebye Zoo)
Srsly, I just don'T get the logic of some people. Of course chalice won't win you the game as soon as it comes down, but it will make things so hard for the opponent that they nearly are death as soon as it hits play.
Not to speak of thoughseize being the worst topdeck ever and sucking against aggro.
@AZ: Take your time mate, quality over everything I 'ld say. Also I'm writing law exams all month and thus haven't that lot of time myself to work on this deck effectively :D
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I play a list with firespout maiboard, is owns goblins and merfolk so hard and is realy good.
I was surprised at how fantastic an early Chalice @1 is in this deck. It stops so many things; from Vial to Entomb to Swords to just plain Ponder. I always want to see Chalice, Mox, 2 lands on the starting hand.
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