[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

[dahcmai]

You could always set up something like we have at our store. I donate a ton of commons and uncommons because I typically buy a playset of those when a new set comes out so anything I get after that is extra. We put them in this little machine you put in a quarter and get some random assortment of cards out of.

Since it's not worth it to get only commons and uncommons, the store owner puts in stuff like actual duals and some other goodies every so often. That stupid machine is a hit and spreads the good cards among the kids since most experienced players steer clear of that thing. I've seen people use grab bags in a similar fashion.

If you want the kids to get in, you should ask the store owner to try it. It's amazing how much money that little thing makes. It's hard to get the good stuff, but it does happen and it's almost always a kid who gets it. Now if we can just keep the assholes from trading the good stuff off those kids for nothing.

[sco0ter]

Wohhaa...

I just checked some prices of cards (magickartenmarkt.de), I didnt check for some time and guess what I saw on some cards? nearly 100% increase.

Natural Order VI nm: 24 EUR (33 USD), few months ago (after Progenitus hype has settled already) this was at 12 EUR. What happened here???
Volrath's Stronghold nm: 11 EUR. wtf? I got it for 5 EUR. This is only a 1-off in few decks.
Lion's Eye Diamond: same as NO.
Survival of the Fittest: 14 EUR... got mine for 7 EUR 5 years ago.
Force of Will: 25 EUR... Wasn't this at ~16-17 for ages??
Sinkhole: see FoW

all the others mentioned already increased by ~100%, too (Mox Diamond, Wasteland, ...)

Than I saw this thread and recognized, I am not alone obviously...

Strangeley enough, Exploration or Grim Lavamancer didn't increase. Someone mentioned it already.

@loveisgreen: I also lol'ed at Scroll Rack....

This is just insane...

[Shugyosha]

I don't understand the difference between "I own 8 Seas, and loan 4 out when 'jimmy' needs them" vs "I own 4 seas, and I traded 4 to 'jimmy' who now owns 4 Seas." Both examples result in 2 decks running Underground Sea in a given event. How does one example drive the price of the cards up, and the other does not? In both examples, there are two sets of seas in the environment. In both examples, access is equal to the two sets of Seas for these players. In both examples, the third player, playing Watery Graves, is fucked. How is that Umbowta's fault?

Well this is getting a bit abstract but my point is and always was not about a single person but about the scene/market in general:

The problem with lending opposed to ownership, is that all cards are at one location and people have to be in some form of contact with the guy who loans out decks. Its much more common that we lend stuff to people we know and trust and are often legacy players themselves than lending cards/decks to people who just learn the format. If there are no people with lots of cards in your area the prices are still high. Not sitting on staples would help to distribute cards more evenly.

Also as I said, there are in fact a lot of people who don't loan out cards and decks. If you have U-Seas and Jimmy has U-Seas you could both play. If you have 8 U-Seas and don't lend or trade 4 because you don't want to shift your 4 between decks Jimmy has a problem. If you have 8 U-Seas and you and Jimmy don't know each other, Jimmy also has a problem.

[Nightmare]

If there are no people with lots of cards in your area the prices are still high. Not sitting on staples would help to distribute cards more evenly.

If you have U-Seas and Jimmy has U-Seas you could both play. If you have 8 U-Seas and don't lend or trade 4 because you don't want to shift your 4 between decks Jimmy has a problem. If you have 8 U-Seas and you and Jimmy don't know each other, Jimmy also has a problem.

On the first point, if someone isn't willing to spend the money for whatever the "market" says the value of seas is, it doesn't matter whether I have 100 or 1000 duals. I'll happily trade my seas - but if we don't live in the same town, or bump into each other at a PTQ, it's not helping you out, and my collection has no effect on the value of cards in your town. There will never be an even distribution, or anything even close to it. For example, America currently has more duals than Europe. It shouldn't be my responsibility to be their supplier. That's what stores are for. I don't know about your town, but the Legacy players in my area are generally pretty free with loaning out staples (for the duration of an event), since it encourages players to play optimized decks. If you need to come up with your fourth Tropical Island, there's usually someone at the Legacy event you can bum one off from for the night - whether they know you or not - which addresses the second point. There's usually a chain of trust that extends beyond "I know you, you know me." Of course, we also just had an incident where an alleged thief got the shit kicked out of him - in the store - during the Worldwake release, so trustworthiness is valued highly in our area - with consequences for those who breach it.

[umbowta]

Don't you understand the basic principle of the market? High demand and low supply leads to high prices.

Yes actually I do. Macroeconomics was a required course for my Political Science minor.

Now don't you think that a lot of people including you are (among other reasons) responsible for low supply when sitting on staples you really don't need to play in a tournament.

No. I believe that speculators are inducing artificial demand on the market thus causing unfairly and artificially high prices. According to some numbers I saw recently, there are greater than 70,000 playsets of each dual and less than 30,000 registered eternal players. 70,000 divided by 30,000 is approximately 2.3 playsets, or 9 of each dual available per registered eternal player. I am a registered eternal player and an avid casual player. I play the game with cards that were printed by the manufacturer.

If some guy next to you would complain that he needs U-Seas but can't find anybody who wants to trade or sell their playset does it feel right to you to complain about high prices?

Yes, it does. Willy Everplay can't get anyone to trade/sell him their stuff because Sammy Speculator is willing to pay more than Willy. So Joe Blow sells his extra stuff to Sammy and poor Willy gets shafted. In the meantime, I'm willing to lend some cards to Willy so he doesn't have to partake in the current price bubble. As a matter of fact, I lent out my entire 4c Abyss Control deck at the tournament I played in 2 weeks ago.

[kicks_422]

With the increasing popularity of the format, would Wizards *really* be stupid to reprint Legacy staples in premium sets? People just keep saying that it will be like Chronicles again, with players complaining about the drop in value of their cards etc... But will that really happen? As far as I know, Legacy players buy cards primarily to play with them, not to collect or just to sell them off again. Who here would actually get pissed off if the value of their duals/FoWs would go down $5? $10? (whch was the price of these cards a couple of years ago, anyway).

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

With the increasing ppularity of the format, would Wizards *really* be stupid to reprint Legacy staples in premium sets? People just keep saying that it will be like Chronicles again, with players complaining about the drop in value of their cards etc... But will that really happen? Who here would actually get pissed off if the value of their duals/FoWs would go down $5? $10? (whch was the price of these cards a couple of years ago, anyway).

Everyone. Literally. You, me, everyone who owns or bought a playset within the last, say, 5-10 years. If you ask an economist or economics grad student what the worst thing that can happen to a market is, they will answer "deflation." It's what the US Government is scared to hell of right this very second. It's a result of the worst global depression since the 1930s. To understate this as much as possible (seriously), reprinting some things like duals as legal cards would be catastrophic for the secondary market. Even more "untouchable" cards like the P9 would plummet as consumer confidence in Wizards and the guaranteed protection of peoples' investments disappeared. I know some internet economist will almost undoubtedly offer fallacious reasons why I'm wrong and why reprinting FoW would be great for the format, but believe you me that Wizards has more to lose from grossly violating the reserve list than consumers do. And a lot of consumers have a lot to lose.

[kicks_422]

So it's not pissed off = 0, pissed off = 1.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not disagreeing with what you said. I'm just innocently asking the people concerned (the people here in the premiere Legacy site), rather than basing everything off of theories and assumptions.

[andrew77]

I would be furious if wizards reprinted duals or fow's. That being said the only thing they might reprint is duals. FoW and brainstorm will not be reprinted as those cards take away from the luck factor in magic that attracts tons of noobs who play type 2. Without the battlefield and all this other yugioh nonsense wizards would lose money. Reprinting cards that require skill to use as opposed to cards like bloodbraid elf which require no skill at all would make the game unfun for the people WotC caters to.

[Dan Turner]

Really i have playsets of almost everything in legacy and multiple of some stuff. I would love to see some reprints of the basics of legacy. what would be great would be either a FTV aimed at Legacy or even better something along the lines of the old boxed sets Wizards used to do. Both would be of limited enough distribution to not really affect the price of the cards but would give new players a place to start with.

[Rune]

I have playsets of most legacy staples and wouldn't mind if they reprinted them. It would make more people play the format, and it might even scare the speculators/hoarders away :]

[Reverend Damaged]

I'm on board with "not caring about reprinting some staples". I have all the staples currently, and you can ask Sims - I abuse them. Very little interest in whether or not my cards increase in value because they all have a huge crease down the middle. Every one I've ever used.

As far as a reprint goes, a limited premium print of some staples (seriously, a FTV with 10 duals and 5 Onslaught fetches?) would barely make a dent in the market. Some players will want the new foil ones, and sell their old ones off. Some players will hate the new foils, and only want old ones. Either way, it would help with the availability of Dual Lands.

I'm in this format solely to play and have fun, and I want more people to play with.

[DrJones]

The people suffering the most of chronicles-style reprints are usually the sellers that buy, let's say, one hundred duals, and they take a noticeable hit in their profit margins when the price goes down. Imagine the face of the owner of Starcitygames (currently buying Tabernacles at 200$) if Tabernacle were reprinted in the next from the vault set. That's not entirely dramatical because they buy at reduced price to begin with, so even if the prices go down 25% they still get profits (obviously, not as much as currently). The safest route is not reprinting cards that are too expensive. Wizards is not going to reprint Black lotus if the sellers that support the game (by selling singles to tournament players) are going to lose 900$ for each one they bought.

I support increasing the supplies of legacy staples, however, because the format needs them to grow and attract new players, otherwise we are going to end like the broken toy that is vintage. There's still time.

[from Cairo]

Really i have playsets of almost everything in legacy and multiple of some stuff. I would love to see some reprints of the basics of legacy. what would be great would be either a FTV aimed at Legacy or even better something along the lines of the old boxed sets Wizards used to do. Both would be of limited enough distribution to not really affect the price of the cards but would give new players a place to start with.

This would probably end up like FTV:Exiled though where the set is MSRP'd at $35 or w/e and being sold for $100++ depending on what's reprinted in it. If it was done in limited quanities, by and large, it would not end up benefitting new players directly, it may help indirectly by deflating the market value of some of the cards due to more being available.

I don't have any viable ideas for a solution to the prices increasing on stuff. Wizards seems to sort of being addressing it with power creep, by obsoleting some old cards with new ones, but I don't really see them printing an LED that produces 4 mana, or something better than FoW, OG Duals, Sinkhole, etc at their respective jobs.

[TheAardvark]

FoW and brainstorm will not be reprinted as those cards take away from the luck factor in magic that attracts tons of noobs who play type 2.

Do you even play T2 so you have some basis for this type of comment? They won't reprint them in a T2-legal set because 1). FoW is too good and not needed in Standard and hopefully never will be, and 2). Brainstorm is too good, and has had a perfectly acceptable replacement printed in Ponder. Neither card fills a hole within T2 right now that is necessary, or even desirable, to fill.

Current T2 isn't really more or less luck based than any other format, although I can't comment much on T1, as I don't play it. Every format has its share of luck; if they didn't, there wouldn't be decks that could conceivably kill before your opponent gets a turn (various T1 stuff/Charbelcher in Legacy, although it's rare for that to happen turn 1 on the play; or, if not "rare", fairly uncommon).

As far as prices, it's pretty awful. For all the people who say "oh, it's easy to budget X amount a month for Magic", that's not necessarily accurate. In addition, there will always people who don't want to have to spend X to remain competitive as metagames change/new sets come in/whatever. I have, for all intents and purposes, been priced out of playing anything other than Merfolk in Legacy at this point in time, largely because I am uncomfortable with buying cards at such high prices without the express intent of reselling them immediately. The only times I've ever spent large amounts of money on individual cards were at conventions when I was dealing and such; as a player, I have always traded for or managed to buy what I needed for decent/good prices. That, plus the fact that the cost has pretty much destroyed the local Legacy scene, has prevented me from playing the format very much over the last 2 years or so.

I'm not saying "ZOMG reprint duals NOW" or anything, but I do think that some form of action needs to be taken at some point before things get out of hand and the market collapses under its own weight.

[Bardo]

I would be delighted to see a From the Vault: Bayou and Co.

I own several sets of RV duals (all of the blue ones, Taigas and some other random ones, and no more than 4-each) and would be thrilled to see them reprinted in some form to allow more people to enter the format. Access and long-term growth is limited by the cost of lands -- which have reached outrageous levels in the last couple of months.

[kicks_422]

So early on, from the players' view (not the economists'), reprinting Legacy staples will be welcomed. Intriguing. Maybe we should have a poll for this?

[andrew77]

I personally enjoy the fact that legacy is perceived as an expensive format. Have you ever played competitive type 2? Most t2 players are not nice people. If you go to a competitive legacy tournament the crowd is much more mature and it makes for a much more relaxed and fun environment. In my mind if you are going to dish out $500 or $1000 for a legacy deck when legacy is a format that has no real support from wizards in terms of ptq's and such it means you probably enjoy the format and want to have fun playing.

[plus_ten]

he thing is, all those little kids who play their stompy decks get beat a bunch, which does nothing but increase prize support at the events you play in. That is unless, of course, they beat you with their stompy decks, in which case your opinion is irrelevant since you're basically a low-skilled whiner, who thinks he should be able to buy his wins, rather than play for them. There is literally zero drawback to having every little kid in the world play in an event you win (or even make top 8 in), since it effects your own tournament by none, unless it's round 1 or 2.

Wow. I copped a scathing hit from Nightmare... but my 'elitist' and feelings of entitlement are those of growing-up and doing some hard work. Everyone is guaranteed a bit of that, especially the little Timmies playing T2 now. Ofc, then, it will become a matter of opportunity cost. Also, while it does affect round 1 and 2, I am sure we want good games with good opponents from round ONE, rather than waiting an hour or more before some real legacy match-ups start. If little Timmy comes to a tournament running Stompy round 1 and gets UTTERLY smashed for 4 rounds, I highly doubt he will want to come back for round 5, let along the next event. Thus, I believe that the price barrier will ensure that when he is ready, mature Timmy will come in with his not-quite-mint cards and storm the local Legacy event! [see above post by Andrew77]

While Nightmare clearly disagree with my 'elitist' anti-reprint feelings, I do agree that we should promote legacy by helping out. And I do. Really! I bought up doubles of a few staples because little Timmy (a trustworthy good-opponent friend) from my area wanted to play and so do I! Now, I can lend out some decks to anyone who wants a go at the local Legacy event. Am I promoting legacy here? Yes, I can lend out about 2 decks to Timmies wanting a go at the local legacy event! When he grows up and buys his own cards, my decks can be piloted by the next kid who shows up at the events thinking that he just came in today to be a spectator. TBH, I would not mind leaving a box of staples at the local store to support the scene, but I would need someone to be responsible for their use.

Also, hoarding staples should theoretically drive up prices, because one person has more than his share. However, as long as MOST (if not all) my duals are providing (competitive) mana, and my forces hitting that crucial first turn Vial, legacy stay alive as the necessary cards remain in the hands of players, not horders or speculators. So, there was 1200+ people at the last GP? As long as they never sold out, there will still be 1200+ people at the next (pending the location ofc ) and the next. 1200+ mature and skillful players? Would anyone want to leave this format?

That being said, any plausible lower-the-barrier reprints will cause these cards to tank and [see my previous post and Andrew77's]. FTV: Legacy is NOT plausible. It will open the market for more opportunists to horde and price gouge, while not helping the format in any way. Also, who is going to have the cash to cough up for FOUR BOXES of this FTV?? Us, even though we already have our ones! Not the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.

Also, any chance someone can do up a poll for opinions on potential reprints?

EDIT: By "plausible lower-the-barrier reprints", I meant Legacy-based Booster packs like Chronicles or ME. These are massive print runs of our staples. That will lower the barrier due to a MASSIVE influx of cards into the hands of players, rich and not-so-rich alike. FTV: Legacy OTOH are VERY limited and will not lower the barrier-of-entry. Another 1000 duals (that is merely 250 playsets, even at 2500 playsets, it s a 3% increase) will not cause the current pool of 70000 playsets to drop in value (significantly*). Instead, these 250 playsets of NEO-duals will be even MORE expensive than the current 70000 ones.

*An FTV:Legacy will cause a price drop as WOTC will have violated their reprint policy and that may well ruin the players' and stores' confidence in the future of the game and the value of the cards.

[Forbiddian]

That being said, any plausible lower-the-barrier reprints will cause these cards to tank and [see my previous post and Andrew77's]. FTV: Legacy is NOT plausible.

Also, who is going to have the cash to cough up for FOUR BOXES of this FTV?? Us, even though we already have our ones! Not the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.

Wait, so you just said that the price would plummet, but then you said that people looking to join the format couldn't afford the cards?

I hope that Wizards does a FTV: Legacy or something. The people who stand to lose any significant amount of money due to the price drop on the reprinted cards are the same people who stand to make a great deal of money from FTV: Legacy.

And then it will be a high publicity release for Legacy and spark new interest, even if it doesn't move the price much.