[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

[luckme10]

If anything the dci should start cycling older standard blocks. It rewards people who played in those formats, sells old useless packs of weaker blocks, and would act as a control mechanism for standard card prices. It also freshens up standard!
Just think about mountain of cards that instantly become subpar during the transition between formats. This is the main reason why everyone's flocking to legacy in the first place, because they hate seeing their cards rapidly depreciate after two years especially during these times. People would actually have an incentive to keep older set cards... If they spread the use of other cards around, they wouldn't have to worry so much about hyperinflation that results in a few specific cards when the other cards become subpar.

I'd be pretty happy to see some slower magic games with "old cards," playing some shivan dragon, serra angel, or nightmare where they're competitive again instead of being reprinted, like great boxers fighting beyond their prime.

[dahcmai]

If you care that much about investing, just do what I did and invest in unopened packs. I still have some these floating around the house. I doubt it will ever go down in price. Hell even the unopened Tempest starters I have will probably be worth something eventually.





I would have no complaint at all for all the duals to be in M2011. I'd lose out hard on it, but it would be nice to stop hearing the whining about how expensive they are and my least favorite complaint of how Standard is cheaper to get into than Legacy.

[Kojiro]

This isn't the first time card price/availability has been a barrier of entry into the format. This shit has been happening for 15 years. I remember when I first started playing back in Revised and playing Type 1 tournaments and getting completely thrashed every round. I saved every single cent until I could afford duals, drains, and power (I was 12-15 at the time, so that's a lot of lawn mowing). I made it work, and I know plenty of players who don't make a lot of money who are savvy enough to pick up the money cards in spite of their prices.

What is it that you people want? Would any of you donate $1000 to Wizards, needy players, etc. if it meant that this format was more accessible? If my playset of duals were suddenly worth $500 instead of $1,500, I would do anything BUT purchase more Magic cards. The only thing I think which will effectively help to stop the dramatic increase in prices while not totally crashing the secondary market would be to introduce a limited number of proxies for sanctioned play (3-5). You can read an interesting article on this topic by my friend Sam here.

[Exospaciac]

I own somewhere around 65 dual lands, about half of which are blue. If Underground Seas and the rest were to suddenly drop to $10 each because Wizards decided to reverse their policy and reprint them, I would certainly be very annoyed.

How many of those do you actually use in decks?

I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.

It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.

[andrew77]

How many of those do you actually use in decks?

I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.

It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.

Who really cares if card prices rise as long as they retain their value. Most other tcg's have $100+ cards when new sets release that will end up being worth $5-10 within a year.

Also this idea that prices are driven up by hoarding is a myth. Prices are driven up by stupid people who are willing to pay crazy amounts of money for certain cards. Once someone pays $200 for a tabernacle other people are more willing to pay that and people selling them are going to expect no less. Since the supply is so low on such cards it is very hard for the market to correct itself even though there are more tabernacle's for sale on ebay and other sites than have been in years.

[ryO!]

i ve posted this in the new format topic and i guess it applies as well.

Legacy has ALWAYS been expensive, and now that it's being really popular, let's not forget that it's what everyone whished for, everybody is whining. Legacy is not in danger at all, it just has never been as much popular. Prices are skyrocket high ? Please don't tell me than most of you don't have a decent legacy deck, and i don't see any new comer crying about the prices and if they do well we all felt that at the beginning. Indeed we have all started from somewhere, and none of us had, just after snaping his fingers, a playset of all dual lands in Alpha miscut, missprinted, in korean language foil and signed by Garfield, Obama and Michael Jordan. I remember when i was was youger back in 1995 when i started, most of the cards seemed unaffordable and at that time for a youg guy like me they were, so i dealt with it and played with what i could afford. As we all grew older, we have more resources and one card at a time we can build a decent legacy deck and please quit the BS about legacy's prices being comparable to Vintage P9. The current formats are just fine and if you are that bored just play for fun with your friend. I to be honest never had so much fun when i played MTG with friends like a drinking games with old school cards and crap one's and our own rules. Ideas like turning legacy into an extended II are the WORST idea i ve ever heard. And no your don't have to own 4 duals of every kind 4 tabernacle 4 Imperial recruiter 4 "w/e the staples is" to have fun in magic or even to be competitive. Legacy is just FINE, for exemple we have now like 1 small touney (20 to 40 people and run by gaming shops) per week or every two weeks where i live and damn finally i can play legacy more than once a year ... also Unbanning cards like Entomb, Metal worker, DH is just fine and it contributed to make the metagame even richer which is a GOOD thing for legacy, i mean there are so many decks to play and still new ideas to come. And that where the difference stand between legacy and vintage where there is only one or two valid powered archetype. And damn for legacy sake please stop GOSSIPING AROUND about any single thing. and IF US or "pick up your card" seems too expensive why didn't you buy them like a year ago when they were cheaper ? And stop blaming people who have more then one playset, i mean let's be honnest, far from all of them are speculators, they ve been owing them for years.

Who really cares if card prices rise as long as they retain their value. Most other tcg's have $100+ cards when new sets release that will end up being worth $5-10 within a year.

Also this idea that prices are driven up by hoarding is a myth. Prices are driven up by stupid people who are willing to pay crazy amounts of money for certain cards. Once someone pays $200 for a tabernacle other people are more willing to pay that and people selling them are going to expect no less. Since the supply is so low on such cards it is very hard for the market to correct itself even though there are more tabernacle's for sale on ebay and other sites than have been in years.

totally

[Volt]

How many of those do you actually use in decks?

I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.

It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.

Please. I own a playset of duals, and part of another playset, mostly so I can have multiple UGx decks built at the same time. I loan decks out a lot. It's a bit of a luxury, but not gluttonous. I don't think I'm the problem.

[Skeggi]

What exactly do you think an investment is? If you're investing, you implicitly accept the risk of losing money. Anyone who buys cards with the intention of making a profit has ZERO standing to complain if they lose money on that investment.

You guys are hanging too much on the word 'investment'. All I'm saying, is when I'm spending lots of cash on cards now, it doesn't matter, because I can always get that money back by selling the cards. It's not like buying a car - that actually drops in value. The fact that cards only go up in value simly comforts me if I have to buy a couple of expensive cards. I recently got some P9 pieces - I never would have done that if they would drop in price, that's just wasting money. Now it's not, because I can always sell them for approximately the price I bought them for. So I don't really see a problem.

[TheAardvark]

Also, for the people saying that the differences in player-bases between formats are a myth: The next time you go to a Vintage or Legacy tournament, count up and figure out the percentage of the field made up of young kids. Then do the same at the next T2 tournament you attend. Compare the results

Whenever you look at people playing games of any kind, age isn't a great barometer of maturity. I have played in tournaments regularly since 1996 and have met more people over the age of 17 who whined about various things regarding the game than those under 17; it's not even close, honestly. Sure, there are 12 year olds out there who play and need a good ass-kicking, but there have always been, and will always be, more who are old enough to "know better" but still act like jackasses.

In growing the local community here as TO, I have had many, many more issues with cheating, theft, and general fuckwitted twattery by people in their 20s than people under the age of 17; again, not close. Even at the local FNM, which has a decent amount of people ages 10-14 regularly, they are very rarely a problem.

It's the older people with the sense of entitlement that cause the most problems, regardless of format.

[MattH]

I guess all I can say to that is, you would almost definitely be singing a different tune if they did reprint them and if you didn't, you would be in a very small (but on The Source, clearly very vocal) minority.

Let me start by saying, fuck you for trying to tell me how I would react. You don't even get to claim ignorance here, I TOLD you exactly how I would feel about the price of my collection dropping. So don't go putting words in my mouth.

I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are.

So you're basing your claims instead on...what, exactly? A scientific poll? A broad survey? Oh right, nothing at all. Well, that's a sound basis if I ever heard one! The fact is that neither of us know who is in the majority here, your delusions to the contrary.

It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems.

Such as what, exactly? Players revolting en masse? Protests outside Hasbro offices? 99% of people who play Magic see their card prices drop all the time. They're called standard and extended players.

Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them?

Let's think for a minute about what you're saying. Deflation is a problem when it's widespread across an entire economy. Apparently you don't know this, but Magic cards are not the same as the US or world economy. What would a "magic recession" even look like? You are saying that if dual lands are reprinted, players will stop buying cards? Stop playing in tournaments? Are you mental?

You do realize that Wizards already reserves the right to reprint any card from Masques forward, and over 75% of the cards from before then, at any time, for any reason, in any way, in any quantity, right? And that players, stores, TOs, and collectors are just fine with this? The reserved list only applies to an extremely minor segment of the Magic economy. It is not 1995 anymore and it's only a minority of players and stores and collectors that are even affected by the reserved list, regardless of how they feel.

If you want to talk about the wider Magic economy, you need to admit to yourself that:
1. Most people do not own duals.
2. Most people do not own power.
3. Most STORES do not own these cards.
4. And most importantly, an economy without any kind of reserved list already exists and operates just fine right now, and that economy dwarfs the Eternal economy by at least one and probably 2-3 orders of magnitude.

This is an argument between TWO small minorities: the ones who favor a reprint, and the ones who oppose a reprint, with the vast bulk of Magic players completely unaware of and uninterested in the controversy. Don't pretend like reprints would be some earth-shattering kaboom, bringing on a great depression and nuclear winter, ashes blanketing the ground, obscuring the sun, paving the way for twenty years of darkness and pain. A handful of people will lose a few hundred dollars apiece, a few who made speculative bets will lose their shirt, and most people won't even notice the difference.

[Observer]

I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are. It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems. Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them?

Now apart from a very smug attitude there is something seriously wrong with your statement, that honestly got me quite annoyed, because you are using a very scary real-life phenomenom as an argument against reprints.
DEFLATION! Be scared as hell everyone, because when those magical cards drop in price it is all going downhill. Now obviously, if the price level of cards ever goes down without reprints that looks like a symptome of a dying game. But that is clearly not the case and what you refer is a dropping price, due to reprints.
But that does not cause any of the rest of the economy to go into a deflation and therefore all those really bad things (aka deflationary spiral, rising debt levels, subdued consumer spending and investments, etc.) DO NOT APPLY!

Now whether reprinting is a good idea or not, I do not want to participate in the discussion, since it is obviously out of our hands.Just to make clear where I stand (for the poll guy ;D) I own some duals (8) and a few other staples and would love reprints, since I know that for the majority of my friends the price is a serious barrier to entry.

To sum it up, argue for or against reprints any way you like, also economically, but please do not invoke the ghost of deflation as a scare tactic.

Sincerely yours

Edit: Thank you MattH for agreeing (or me agreeing with you, whatever)

[freakish777]

From what I understand, more people left the game in disgust after Chronicles than at any other point in its history.

While I'm not disagreeing with IsThisACatInAHat? point of view, this particular fact I'm pretty sure is wrong.

Saga Block was so broken and sales were so terrible that Wizards R&D was pulled into Hasbro Corporate offices and yelled at. The knee jerk reaction was the complete fail entailed in Mercedian Masques block. Pretty sure that if the entire Wizards R&D department was yelled at by Hasbro Corporate for Saga block, that was when they had the largest exodus of players away from the game due to disgust of the power level.

For reference:


4 Mind Over Matter
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Voltaic Key
3 Scroll Racks
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Meditate
4 Power Sink
4 Time Spiral
4 Windfall
2 Intuition
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
12 Island


This shit was legal in STANDARD!

[Nocco]

There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.

I agree with pretty much everything majikal's said and wanted to highlight this very important point.

EDIT: Oh, and MattH and Andrew are pretty much spot on in their assessments as well. WotC couldn't care less about how hard they buttfuck Eternal players because, let's face it, we make up a pretty small minority of the people who purchase their cards. If they think reprinting duals or FOWs or even P9 will increase sales and interest in the game, then they'll reprint them, secondary market values be damned.

[Matt Blackburn]

Saga Block was so broken and sales were so terrible that Wizards R&D was pulled into Hasbro Corporate offices and yelled at. The knee jerk reaction was the complete fail entailed in Mercedian Masques block. Pretty sure that if the entire Wizards R&D department was yelled at by Hasbro Corporate for Saga block, that was when they had the largest exodus of players away from the game due to disgust of the power level.

For reference:


4 Mind Over Matter
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Voltaic Key
3 Scroll Racks
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Meditate
4 Power Sink
4 Time Spiral
4 Windfall
2 Intuition
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
12 Island


This shit was legal in STANDARD!

and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.

[Artowis]

and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.

That's cute and all, but freakish777 is essentially correct. The two biggest losses in customers and tournament-level players that I can remember stemmed from Urza's Block and unchecked Affinity. Fae may not of been fun to play against over and over, but it was hardly the disaster like those two particular instances were.

[freakish777]

and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.

In case you're somehow unaware, low level and casual players account for the majority of Wizards' customer base. And no, you really wouldn't have wanted to play in a format where as the saying goes:

The early game is the coin flip.
The mid-game is deciding your mulligans.
The late game is turn 1.

Furthermore, keep in mind that the old Legends rule was "Your opponent has their Tolarian Academy out? They get to keep it forever and ever, your's is useless."

Having 4 Tolarian Academy in your deck and having turn 1s such as:

Academy
Mox Diamond
Island
Mana Vault
Windfall

or

Lotus Petal
Mana Vault
Voltaic Key
Academy
Time Spiral

is absurd. Keep in mind you went from a completely interactive format with Mirage Block/Tempest Block/5th to a completely non-interactive turn 1 combo format with Mirage Block rotating out for Saga Block.

There's a gigantic difference in power level between Tolarian Academy and Bitterblossom. Case in point, one was never banned in any format. The other was banned or restricted in every non-limited format.




If you still think this format would have been exciting, I'm guessing you're also the type of player that thinks that Mind's Desire shouldn't have been pre-emptively restricted in Vintage...

[Fatestitcher]

4 Mind Over Matter
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Voltaic Key
3 Scroll Racks
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Meditate
4 Power Sink
4 Time Spiral
4 Windfall
2 Intuition
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
12 Island


This shit was legal in STANDARD!

I played Spiral Blue during that era, after Tolarian Academy and Windfall got the first axe, the deck persisted with Dream Halls engine. I got to play the deck in a tournery once before Time Spiral got axed also. I did not quit soon after, I kept the entire deck up to now for nostalgia. Because of my anger with WotC, I decided to play Hatred deck instead. The following tourney, I did manage to beat a weaker offshoot of Mind Over Matter deck which ran Show and Tell. I also remember a fat opponent playing a CIPT land on his first turn. Which on my second turn, I dropped City of Traitors, attacked with Blood Pet then Ritual to Hatred. LOL!

Those were the fucking good old days!

edit: my Tempest Blood Pets look more pimp than 7th ed. in that tag.

[Matt Blackburn]

That's cute and all, but freakish777 is essentially correct. The two biggest losses in customers and tournament-level players that I can remember stemmed from Urza's Block and unchecked Affinity. Fae may not of been fun to play against over and over, but it was hardly the disaster like those two particular instances were.

thats cute and all, but I wasnt disagreeing with him.

In case you're somehow unaware, low level and casual players account for the majority of Wizards' customer base. And no, you really wouldn't have wanted to play in a format where as the saying goes.

no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.

bit ballsy assuming what kind of format I would prefer to play in or guessing what type of player I am. I would rather play fast games than watch some scrub go to time a third round in a row as he tries to hopelessly beat ub fearies with mono G treefolk. Im all for indepth games, but I also know when to just scoop. pride gets in the way too much and I dont have the patience to start a tournament at 8pm and have it go well beyond 2am, because some douchebag doesnt know when to quit.

[evilgorrilaz]

no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.

The illusion is all that matters. Hardcore players will adapt because they love the game more than anything. Casual players are the ones that tend to quit. So long as casual players are happy, Wizards is happy.

[freakish777]

The illusion is all that matters.

Correct.

@Matt. My assumption is that you're actually a good player and in it for the prizes. Maximizing your payout means you need to not only maximize your percentage chance to win each match, but also increase the number of opponents (so that the amount being paid into the prize pool is higher). Lower tournament turn-out (because the illusion of "winnability" is gone) decreases tournament payout. Incidently, at the top tables in a Faerie Standard Metagame, while luck is still huge (who got the Ancestral Vision + Bitterblossom hand + won the coinflip) there's more luck involved in the Academy Standard match (who won the coinflip and had Academy).

If you were as good as Gary Kasparov at chess, and you played for money in Central Park, it would be to your benefit to make sub-optimal moves to give your opponent the illusion that they can win. Obviously, you wouldn't want to make sub-optimal plays in Magic, since there is luck involved (and you don't want to scoop it up to their topdeck) but giving the opponent to illusion of being able to win because you're taking 1 every upkeep, playing with a bunch of 1/1s and not killing them until turn 8 makes sure that they keep putting money into your pocket as opposed to them quitting because you just keep winning on turn 1 or 2 after making 20 mana and drawing 20 cards.