So I tested a similar List as pak0's on MWS / with my teammates and came up with a few changes (the most are personally preference ;) )
Lands (23)
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Wasland
4 Factory
3 Rainforest
3 Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical
1 Savannah
Creatures (5)
4 Goyf
1 Dragon
Removal (9)
4 StP
2 Path
3 Wrath
Counter (11)
4 FoW
4 Snare
3 Spell Pierce
Ca (10)
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 FoF
Win (3)
2 Elspeth
1 LftL
So as you can see I removed the Tops for a 3rd Standstill and 2 Paths ( I tryed EE first but with 4 Mishras / Goyfs I was able to stall Mongoose and other small Stuff (Vial might be a problem trough, even if we have a much faster clock now so 6 Sword effects and 3 Boardsweeper seem to be enough to handle Merfolk / Goblins).
LftL worked out pretty well, returning Wastelands, Mishras or even ordinary Lands back to your hand (it also helps with your FoF piles).
My Sieboard contains the following:
2 Path
3 Finks
3 Relics
2 Crypts
3 Canonists
2 Grips
I'm pretty sure that I'll play this list in two weeks at our weekly Legacy Event so I'll come up with a better report / analysis soon ;).
Last edited by Felidae; 02-14-2010 at 12:36 PM.
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you.
Loam is cute and all but when i tested it i hated it =).
The other thing I don't see: Why Canonists? Since you removed Top CB is no longer viable, but if you want combohate on a stick MM should get the nod IMHO.
I'm really looking forward to the report^^
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
I like MM & Canonist as combohate, but with a faster clock a "must answer card" such as Canonist seems to be the right choice in my eyes (together with Spell Pierce it looks easier to get to the 3rd Turn to cast him).
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you.
We just had the whole MM vs Canonist debate for the last two pages if you want to check up on arguments for/against.
Nothing was really settled IMO, and I don't think it will be.
MM tends to be more versatile in more matchups, but Canonist tends to be better against ANT/Tendrils specifically. It comes down to what you perceive your meta to require & personal preference.
Yeah I'm looking forward to the report too. I'm curious how a more aggro approach will work out. Best of Luck to you!
On a different note, I've been toying with switching from UWb Landstill to UWr, splashing red for AV, Helix, and some sideboard cards. I'd really like to get some suggestions on the following list. I like Helix a lot more than Fire//Ice - I guess maybe that's just personal preference. Here it is:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell (is Spell Pierce really better??)
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cunning Wish (Wishboards are just too much fun for me...)
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives (looking to add a 3rd one)
1 Humility (an all-time favorite of mine!)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
(the mana-base I'm not too sure about...)
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Path to Exile
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Return to Dust
1 Enlightened Tutor
I'm not too sure about some wishboard cards like M. Tutor, Pulse of the Field, Dismantling Blow, etc. If anyone has ideas for the wishboard or the deck at all, I'd love some suggestions! I've even entertained the idea of running Burning Wish in the main but when it came down to it, I couldn't think of cards to run in the board to justify B. Wish in the main. Thanks for reading!
21 Lands aren't enought richt now, especially when you fight against Wasteland and/or Stifle, I might add another basic Island and Plains (so you have enough Basics to cast either Elspeth, Wrath or CS).
The Helix looks great but a 3rd EE to blow away small stuff in the early game (without acces to W/R) is just better.
Besides Wrath or EE you have acces to another great boardsweeper: Firespout, better then Pyroclasm and faster/cheaper then Wrath (the badside: it can't kill Goyfs, Tombstalkers, any kind of Fea or Progenitus (but you got Humility to fix that).
If you run 3 Tops your Sideboard might benefit from 3/4 Counterbalances (I guess I'd cut the BeB/M Trap/1 Pyroclasm (or Firesput)).
In your current list Dismatling Blow looks better then RtD, because you can cast it under a Bloodmoon (without acces to WW) and Pulse is just a gamewinner for you.
I also tryed Starstorm as a boardsweeper in my wishboard, but it turned out as crap because having RR in the Midgame is nearly impossible / not worth it.
So all in all:
MD: -1 BS / -2 Helix, + 1 EE / 2 Basics
SB: - 2 BEB / -2 Pyroclasm / -1 RtD / -1 M. Trap, + 3 CB / +1 D. Blow / +1 Pulse / +1 Firespout
I couldn't find another card to cut so I choose BS, because 3Bs + 3Tops can do the job quite well.
Cheers
Felidae
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you.
From the list it seems to be more geared towards a slower metagame.
Ok, like Felidae said: You need more Lands. Personally I wouldn't touch a version with less than 23, more are better. Since you have no recursion engine for your Lands, Wasteland seems weak, cutting 1 for Factory 4 is the most obvious, but I would cut them entirely in favour of a more stable manabase.
The first thing I would get rid of is probaby Humility, but since you like it I'm a little hesitant on advice =).
I'm not sure bout the board, since this is a metachoice, but I really thing that 1 D.Blow and 1 Pulse are a given. If you expect some Dredge leave the trap in.
Sorry I forgot to add Academy Ruins to the list, so I've actually got 22 lands in it. However, I can see taking out a BStorm for a 23 land (4th basic) and I can also see taking out a Wasteland for a 4th Factory. I used to run 1 Crucible in this deck for a while and could fetch it with E. Tutor via Cunning Wish (round about I know). It was just too gimmicky and to expect to get a Wasteland-Crucible lock with only 1 CoW and 3 WL its not very likely. I know Firespout is much-preferred to Pyroclasm but is it simply because it of the extra 1 damage? Its not like its instant-speed, plus I'm never going to be casting it with G to hit Faeries or something.
Regarding the sideboard, what is the best GY-hate? There's Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap, etc. etc. I'm torn as to which one to use. Too many choices!
@pak0:
What exactly makes you say that the list geared towards a slower metagame? I'm not really sure what you mean...
Thanks!
I went 4-2 at today's GPT with a Vindicate-List.
My Matchups:
Zoo 2-0
Merfolk 1-2
Senor Wheenie 2-0
Eva Green 0-2
Uwb Controlish 2-0
Zoo 2-1
I could add a few more words about the particular games (sometimes not), if wanted. I'll also edit my 75 if someone is interested.
Counterspell > Pierce
As well as EE + Cunning Wish. Mana intesive builds tend to perform better if they have the time to set up, so I assumed this from your list =).
For Graveyard hate you will get lots of different answears, since there is not a real consensus. My advice is the following:
Since you run Cunning Wish 1 Trap should be set. After that you sould know how many spaces you want to dedicate. These places should be split between Crypt and Relic. If there is a lot of Loam in your meta I'd go Relic > Crypt. If it is solely for Dredge i think Crypt is better. But I would never use only one, always mix them up. However this is my own opinion, several others will tell you otherwise, you just have to test what works best for you.
Yes the key is to diversify the hate. Atm I play 1 trap, 1 extirpate and 1 crypt. Against dredge I side in 1 crypt and 1 tutor which adds 2 more GY-hate slots to the 3 wishes and is gg if you manage to get academy ruins going.
@Dal: As I said the cut to 3 BS would only make sense if you had nothing left to cut, with your Ruins as a 22th land you can easily keep the 4th BS (but I'd still cut 2 Helixes for a Basic/ 3rd EE).
@Fred: Greetz to the finish, its sad that you lost against Eva Green , what cards did you run in your SB? (I'd like to see a Preacher in there :D )
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Yeah the matches vs. Eva Green were really not satisfying. I remember that he had tons of pressure in game one (he also ran Dark Confidants).
In game 2 he had at least 2 Wastelands + 4 Sinkholes (Yes, all 4 of them) which screwed the crap out of me.
If was actually feeling good about my sideboard though. It looked like this:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Negate
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile
It's sad that I wasn't able to test my take on graveyard hate but on the other hand it's good since Dredge still wouldn't have been a good matchup.
Has anyone considered running Baneslayer as SB hate vs. Zoo? I'd imagine they side out their paths in the matchup, leaving them stone-cold to a 5/5 flying first strike lifelink. It's kinda slow, but you have enough stuff to slow them down, especially post-board, that you should be fine.
I've had them keep PtE in to take out Factories before. BS seems really slow, since we don't really have *any* form of mana acceleration whatsoever. Assuming you are on the draw for g2, that's a lot of pressure to fend off for five turns to maybe drop a bomp. I would rather run more removal, or something easier on the curve, like Kitchen Finks.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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At that rate, if you're running UWB, would Vampire Nighthawk become an option? It's got lifelink, and it blocks and trades with Goyf/Tombstalker/Kird Apes/all kinds of dudes.
It seems to me that you'd want the life immediately from a 187 like Finks in burn-heavy matchups, but I wondered if anybody knew otherwise well enough to say.
Eh,is your third color, so I would say no. My UWb manabase only had 1x Sea, 1x Scrub, and 1x Swamp, so with double-
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Is Zoo really that much a problem?
If they are not running price of progress you should be fine anyway.
Explosives is absolutely murder for them and when you resolve an elspeth they need to spend at least 2 burn spells to kill it giving you enormous CA. Post-board they have very little relevant SB options while you gain acces to life gain.
I agree with Morbid that any spell with double black is not an option with the current manabase. Baneslayer is waaaaaay to slow and even when they side out path game 2 it'll be back game 3 if they see you playing baneslayer thus reducing it's effectiveness too much...
Finks is definetly an option if burn is a big metagame presence.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
Why looking for Zoo stuff?
3 Pte is really flexible, they are good against Zoo, Dredge, any kind of Tribal and most other creature based strategies. There are hardly any other cards that do this for 1cc at instant speed. With this said I would board 2-3 other Lifegain mechanics to support the aggro matchup. Since Zoo is the most dominant, Kitchen Finks are fine for me. If they would tend more towards Goyfsligh/Burn I think Pulse is the way to go.
So I played Landstill again at the latest Vestal tournament this past weekend, I ended up going 4-0-3, which landed me in 9th place of 78 on tie-breakers.
List:
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland
2x Humility
2x DoJ
2x Elspeth
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgement
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x Top
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
Sideboard:
1x Echoing Truth
3x Meddling Mage
3x Path
3x Extirpate
1x Llawan
3x Negate
1x Crucible of Worlds
Mini-Report:
My memory is not the best, I didn't take any notes this time around, but I'll try and be as accurate as possible...
Round 1, Pro Bant, 2-1 (1-0):
Game 1: I'm not sure what he's playing but last time it was Reanimator, I keep a hand with some counters and lands. It becomes obvious he is not playing reanimator when he starts with a Forest -> hierarch. I swords the mana-dude and we enter into card advantage race that is eventually won by top finding Wrath and then Elsepth when we both have no cards in hand.
Game 2: I take a gamble on a powerful hand with Top & Removal, but get wrecked early by a wasteland cutting me off of double white, I take too long to stabilize and die to beats.
Game 3: No deck can deal with Progenitus quite like Landstill can.
Round 2, Countertop NO-Bant, 2-0 (2-0):
Game 1: He gets off to a solid start, landing dudes and protecting them, I fall to single digit life, but eventually I sweep all his dudes and Counter Balance with an EE to stabilize. He finds a dude and a Natural Order, but I have the Wrath and Elspeth takes the game.
Game 2: I keep a hand with three outs to Progenitus and lands. Llawan gets forced, Humility sticks.
Round 3, Crazy Horizon Canopy/Knight of the Reliquary/Crucible of Worlds/Stifle & Waste Dave Price Shenanigans, 1-1-1 (2-0-1):
Game 1: He Forces my turn 1 Top, but I have a second in hand which lets me sabiliize through his Stifle/Waste but I'm on low life. I manage to find and land a Humility with Force back up, it shortly takes the game.
Game 2: He has a super early Wastelock with crucible, I slow roll a fetch and try to get out of it with an EE @ 3, but he has the stifle. This game drags as I manage to get all of my Basics and a Top into play, but it's hard to resolve bombs through Daze & Spell Pierce on only 4 lands, he eventually takes it.
Game 3: I have a hand filled with removal but no counter magic he has a turn 3 wastelock that hurts my game significantly. I kill his guys until time is called, we never get to finish but he would most likely would have taken it.
Round 4, More crazy Winter Orb/Relic Barrier Shenanigans, 1-1-1 (2-0-2):
Game 1: I'm not sure what he's up to, he has a port tapping down one of my lands for the first few turns, eventually he plays a Relic Barrier, which lets me untap and drop an Elspeth. She goes all the way, even through 2 Propagandas, with Top hitting me land every turn.
Game 2: This game is much much long than the first, winter orb comes out early and slows us both down hard. Eventually he finds and has mana for a Relic Barrier, not thinking I said "Sure," filtered through my hand, looked at my untapped Island and Spell Snare in hand (chilling next to a now uncastable Elspeth and DoJ, *facepalm.* I proceed to do nothing for 30 minutes until he finds a way to kill me. We do fight over an EE at 2, but he wins the counter war.
Game 3: Much like game 2 except he doesn't have the Relic Barrier, we obviously never get even close to finishing.
Now that I got those pesky Draws out of the way early, it's time to win-out! ... right?
Round 5, Ugb Countertop with Stifle/Waste, 2-1 (3-0-2):
I know why I'm in the 2 draw bracket, I play Landstill, sometimes I'm awful at it, and I faced freaking Winter Orb.dec. This kid is here because he plays so slowly you're better off waiting for the Earth to be engulfed by the Sun than for him to make a play decision.
Game 1: I'm pretty shaken after the two Draws, they were long matches and I haven't had a break at all in the last two hours. I make an abundance of play mistakes this game, 2 for 1 myself a couple times, it just doesn't look pretty.
While sideboarding I took a deep breath and just told myself to relax and wake the fuck up.
Game 2: With my will re-steeled, my tight play comes back. I have all the answers for his threats and Counterbalance, he doesn't have any for my Humility + Factories + Decree.
Game 3: Much like game 2 but Elspeth shows up early, he can't come back from a defensive position.
Round 6, Quackenbush with GW Survival, 2-0 (4-0-2):
Game 1: I already pretty much never lose to Survival, Survival without blue is kind of a cakewalk. I kill all of his dudes (including Progenitus) and don't let survival resolve. Humility + Decree just ends the game.
Game 2: See game one, except it is way more drawn out. At one point he hardcasts Iona, to which I respond with a hardcast Force of Will.
There are two people in the 14 point bracked, me and Dave Price, but we already played so we both got paired down against 13 pointers, any draws would mean drawing out of the Top-8, so it's Win and In time.
Round 7, Nick with Canadian Thresh, 1-1-1 (4-0-3):
I really think this matchup is in our favor, I'm feeling confident to start the first game.
Game 1: I have an early Top that is just hits me land turn after turn, but stifle's and counters keep nailing my EE's to get rid of his Mongoose. Eventually I managed to kill it on 9 life. But I have to tap-out to do so, I'm holding 3 counterspell in hand and just need to untap to seal the deal. He's at a healthy life but only has two cards left. He draws for the turn. Bolt... bolt... bolt. Frown-town, way to peel like a champ.
Game 2: This is similar to the first except I don't get burned out. He just doesn't have enough ways to kill me, and has to go 3/4 for 1 on my threats with Spell Pierce and Daze's. Decree for 8 dudes, Swing, Decree for 8 more dudes, swing, takes the game.
Game 3: We have 7 minutes left for game 3, I shuffle up quickly, he Pile shuffle/Riffle shuffle/pile shuffles, mulls down to 4, shuffling the same each time, after what felt like 7 minutes went by, we start.
He lays a tropic, I take a gamble on it being his only land... and him not having stifle, and waste it turn 1. It works, but he rips a fetch off the top. I land a Top and double Factories, I start beating in for 3 / 4 a turn. I try an Elspeth turn 5 but it gets hit by Pierce, I probably should have waited another turn to play around it, obviously wasn't thinking clearly here, just wanted to Kill kill kill.
Time gets called with him on single digit life, I reduce it to 3 or so in turns but just can't kill him even though I have a strangle hold over the board and in cards. Given another turn or two my freshly plucked Decree would have most likely stolen the game, match, and a Top 8 slot. Alas it was not to be and the one other 15 Pointer snuck in ahead of me into 8th place on Tie-Breakers.
But I get a Foil Wasteland and a groovy play-mat for my troubles, I call it a good day and head out for Food.
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