It looks like a great addition to the deck, being itself a quite averaging good card, a metagame call (reanimator/Survival/NO/SnT) and a micro combo netting you 2 additional draws per turn for 1U. In addition to that, when you play a Morph creature, the opponent won't try to deal with it if he knows he's facing this deck, because he generally does not care to remove a 1/3 from the field.Originally Posted by thorin_the_king
I'm not an expert of the deck so I can't tell exactly but I think it should be really good as a 2 or 3-of if you play already 3 Fathom Seer.
Edit: I forgot that another advantage of this card is that it's blue for FoW, in this deck with a too low blue cards count.
Based on the list in the opening post, I have a few remarks:
- I don't get the use of playing 2 plains and only 1 island. The deck looks like more island intensive than plains, in particular with Fathom Seer. Same remark on the fetches choice.
- it's probably because you overlooked it but Vesuvan Shapeshifter looks far better than Knight of the White Orchid. See my previous post.
- In general Enlightened Tutor sideboards are bad, for 3 main reasons: 1/you need redundancy in your SB. For instance, once Ghostly Prison has been dealt with, you won't find another one even in late game 2/ in a lot of MUs you won't appreciate to do 2 for 1 for a SB card, even Ichorid 3/ all the SB cards are of the same family: artifacts and enchantments, meaning that in best case, bringing hate for your hate in g3 is easier, in worst case Reverent Silence and/or Shattering Spree will net your opponent CA. I've been seduced by ET SBs too at some point and I finally disliked them compared to a full SB.
- The MD plays only 17 blue cards. It's very low.
- The SB plays 0 blue card. You SBing has to be very tricky...
If you play the deck a few times, it will become very obvious that the deck plays differently than it looks to you. You almost always want the Plains but never the Island, there's more than enough blue for FoW, etc. For the ET SB, you may realize that most of the cards have overlapping functions. 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Grunt and 2 ET adds up to 5 needle-resistant GY hate. 1(2) Thorn, 1(0) Canonist, 1 Wheel, 3 Aura and 2 ET adds up to 8 storm combo-hate, etc. It's not really a toolbox like you say.
And what I came here originally to ask:
@Forbiddian
What is your optimal T1 play against unknown.dec on the play? I keep opening with vial/wayfarer/MoM or vial/MoM/BS or some combination thereof. Usually when I have Pierce and BS in hand I just play land pass so I can counter or BS eot if he doesn't cast anything relevant, but when I don't, sitting on the land is usually just a tempo loss, especially to aggro decks. If I know whether or he's not playing blue going into it the decision gets easier, but I seem to continuously make the wrong play and it usually costs me a lot of life at the start against fast aggro or a lot of tempo against aggro-control.
Great success!
Please stop with that. Or it'll become a new flame war. Always assuming people misunderstanding is a bad philosophy.
Then fetch the plains. I know you have 12 turn1 W spells. It might justify the fact you play W fetches over U fetches. But it'll never justify the fact you play 2 plains over islands. Actually, I don't care if you don't play 2 islands, just don't play 2 basic plains and more fetches instead. I'll go further to say that even if you don't have daze in hand you always want an island (read tundra when you don't have vial in hand) turn 1 just for the fear factor.You almost always want the Plains but never the Island, there's more than enough blue for FoW, etc.
It is a toolbox. As I said, you play 10 artifact/enchantments SB cards (12 if you include ET). Look at other decks what are the ratios. For the reasons I've told, it's bad. I've played this kind of SB in a lot decks and I've always been disappointed. I'd be very surprised if there was not a better ET-less SB.For the ET SB, you may realize that most of the cards have overlapping functions. 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Grunt and 2 ET adds up to 5 needle-resistant GY hate. 1(2) Thorn, 1(0) Canonist, 1 Wheel, 3 Aura and 2 ET adds up to 8 storm combo-hate, etc. It's not really a toolbox like you say.
If you have vial, you play it (with basic island if possible to fake Merfolk). Period.And what I came here originally to ask:
@Forbiddian
What is your optimal T1 play against unknown.dec on the play? I keep opening with vial/wayfarer/MoM or vial/MoM/BS or some combination thereof. Usually when I have Pierce and BS in hand I just play land pass so I can counter or BS eot if he doesn't cast anything relevant, but when I don't, sitting on the land is usually just a tempo loss, especially to aggro decks. If I know whether or he's not playing blue going into it the decision gets easier, but I seem to continuously make the wrong play and it usually costs me a lot of life at the start against fast aggro or a lot of tempo against aggro-control.
For the rest, it's debatable on particular hands. What's clear is that Brainstorm is the last card you want to play from your hand. It's definitely not a turn 1 play.
It makes me think about something else: I don't get why you play Spell Pierce over Daze#4.
2 plains 1 island is right, couldn't explain it better than Cat in the Hat did.
I'll look into Vesuvan Shapeshifter is only good against Progenitus and Iona or comboing with Fathom Seer. In those situations, it's pretty amazing, though. I'm concerned about how stable it is in the fast matchups like Zoo and Goblins where Knight really shines out. The interaction with Fathom Seer seems totally busted, though, and something we could probably regularly pull off regularly. The fact that it's blue is a pretty big bonus, too. Thanks to Thorin for the suggestion, I'm pretty excited to test this one out.
They're great in this deck. I don't know what experiences you've had. See the hundreds of posts about how great they are.
I've done the calculations, and it hasn't ever been a problem in a few years of playing this deck (runnning around 16-19 blues). Vintage Decks routinely run about that many (and how often do you want to Force of Will using the Ancestral Recall?). The difference is this deck's blue spells generally go toward drawing more blue spells. You never just flush a blue card, like by casting a Cursecatcher or Lord of Atlantis. All the blue spells are either countermagic or draw.
Blue has horrible sideboard options. If you want to add blue to the sideboard, contact Wizards of the Coast customer service, it's not my problem they don't print good blue spells. Incidentally, Propaganda, Aura Flux, and Energy Flux sometimes see sideboard play depending on the meta.
Seems like you hate this deck. Feel free to continue having no experience playing it, but please stop pretending that you do.
@Cat in the Hat: Almost always lead with the Vial. If he's heavy on the countermagic or chal@1 or 3sphere, you win the game off of the early Vial. If he's a fast deck, you win the game off of the early vial. In those situations, it's the difference between winning and losing. That's more common than a combo deck comboing you out on turn 1.
The only time you'd EVER want to wait is if you're nearly certain your opponent is playing Belcher or Ad Nauseum and you have a Spell Pierce.
Against blue, it's so counterproductive to wait to counter the brainstorm, just get the Vial down, vial in the wayfarer/mom. You'll win the long game with Vial (or potentially even the short game if you draw into angels, etc.). At any rate, you'll never want to cast a Brainstorm on turn 1 over a Vial.
I honestly don't understand this sentiment. I'm not trying to belittle your ego. Let me explain something to you: I found this deck a few months before this thread was created, when I read the defunct 2008 thread at the bottom of the Established forum. I PM'd Forbiddian about it and asked him about his deck. I asked tons of questions, some similar or identical to yours. Some of his answers left me unconvinced and most he answered with "just try it and you'll understand." He was 100% correct. I'm no expert, so I took his answers on faith and found later from personal experience that he was right. Now that NG is my primary deck, I teach others who ask (mostly my playtest group) by repeating the answers I got because I observed how truly helpful they were. I really can't stress enough how huge the difference is between how it looks and how it plays.
As a newcomer to TheSource, it has shocked me how such a disproportionately massive percentage of the criticisms against NG are made from a position of ignorance (not having even tried or considered the deck; just read the first few pages of this thread) and how they're almost entirely from known, respected Sourcers. Their cynicism is causing them to miss out on an unknown deck with tier 1 matchups. Honestly, if you just try it, your opinions will change.
Great success!
What is it based on? It's completely wrong. Just because I said a plains should be replaced with another land? Seriously? I don't bother posting in decks I don't believe in.Seems like you hate this deck.
Stop acting as if your deck was despicted by everyone. The fact that this post is the 548th is an evidence of the contrary. The flames definitely do not come from the list but how you all victimise yourselves.
My remark do not challenge the genius of your building. They just raise some slight issues/weaknesses/misconceptions/debate openings of the opening post's build. In fact, you did not address them at all. You shut down completely the argumentation process with the fallacious argument: "play it and you'll understand". I can undercut this argument simply by saying that there is no optimal build. There is one optimal build for each metagame. Replacing 1 land with another one is definitely a change that can be motivated by metagame considerations. So, rejecting any discussion based on my hypothetical inexperience with the deck is stupid.
1/ There is absolutely no justification to play 2 plains. Turn 1, you want a tundra for Daze (real or bluff) and for W-creatures. I can understand how the deck is more W extensive than U, but it's really not the point. Do you feel you need 3 basic lands? If yes, why? And why 2 plains instead of 2 islands? I could understand that you play Karakas instead of Plains#2 though.
2/ I'm happy you accepted to try the shapeshifter.
3/ You can notice that this point was just a warning about how ET can be the danger of cool things sometimes. I am aware that my experience on it can be not applicable to this deck. Although, I strongly recommend you to try a SB that does not rely on it in order to make some comparisons.
4/ I was just telling that the 17 U-cards is an issue to play FoW efficiently. If you feel that FoW is good enough and that it's not an enough motivation to force more U-cards in, then I understand. 17 is still acceptable (but it's really the low limit in my opinion).
5/ Not playing U cards in SB reinforces the MD U-cards insufficiency and it's wrong to say that U does not provide good SB cards. Of course, if you base your SB on enchantments/artifacts, then non blue cards will flood your SB. According to me, it's another argument in favor of not having an ET SB.
Everything you've said has been addressed multiple times.
Take CatInTheHat's advice or try reading.
EDIT: Not that the questions are themselves necessarily so stupid. I could understand how someone with no experience whatsoever with the deck could take a cursory glance at the deck and have these fleeting questions pop into his brain. It's just that 1) Nobody who has any experience with the deck would ask any of those questions and 2) These questions have all been asked and answered in the 500+ posts, so there's really no point either way in rehashing this stuff. If you really want an answer, play the deck or read, but it's incredibly selfish of you to demand I waste more time addressing your points again and again.
Incidentally, Jeff and I have tried every single suggested card in the thread. I think maybe one or two were just pure stupid, but everything with some merit we've tested, from Azorius Guildmage to Mishra's Factory to Elspeth, to Abolish, to Aven Mimeomancer. The vast majority, we tested before they were mentioned in the thread. We'd actually tested Vesuvian Shapeshifter/talked about it before, but since then Progenitus and Iona were printed, both extremely popular cards which Shapeshifter handles very well and nothing else does, Mother of Runes was added, and the blue count was reduced, so I think it deserves another look. The consensus before was that it was a Tarmogoyf for 5, but the things above all work in its favor.
It seems from people's responses they have the feeling that we're not doing the work or something or that it's some new thing that we're testing a card, just wanted to clear that point up.
Out of curiosity how was Elspeth in testing?
I remember when I played this deck a while ago (I think I went 3-2-0) that I barely ever had four lands in play and when I did the game was almost over.
Also for those looking for one, Wildfire seems to be a really bad match up for this deck.
A founding member of Team Bluff the Lotus - Bringing the crazy from Bob's Baseball Dugout
How about the Rock?
I'm planning on playing UW Tempo at a tournament in the near future. How does it do against the Rock? It's one of the most popular decks in the country piloted by some of the best players. (It's not in the MU analysis).
(Sample list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32536)
Last edited by Mayk0l; 02-23-2010 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Typo
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Do you mean Eva Green? Or actual 'The Rock'?
It must not be big in the states, I've never played against one (unless the g/b/w deck I played last week was one)
No classic Rock. There are multiple variants, but I'm referring to the dedicated control version. A deck that runs Vindicates, Deeds, Plows, Elspeths, Edicts, Shriekmaw. It's really big in the Netherlands (definitely Tier 1 and definitely putting up good results).
Edit: Here's a list for reference, I'll remove it later
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [R] Scrubland
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [R] Savannah
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Swamp
// Creatures
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
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I can't imagine wildfire being worse than 50%, but I'll play against you if you're curious over spring break. It's not really a common matchup so we didn't test it.
The rock matchup depends on how much the rock player hates the UW tempo player. If he brings 14-16 removal spells, with elspeth, and many ways to refill his hand, then you're looking at a rather tough matchup, perhaps one that's even sub50%. Most rock builds that are within a reasonable range are about 50-60% if your opponent plays well, and higher if he's uninformed or a poor pilot. The 10% range is kind of wide, because we tested this only to a rather limited degree, since the rock isn't popular where we are, or apparently in the states(?)
The rock deck above looks pretty hard to beat. I'd say it's around 50%.
The most powerful spells for them are Pernicious Deed, the 2GG Concentrate, and Eternal Witness, of which there are only three total in this version. But this version is sideboarding in four cards that happen to be pretty strong against us, and in the correct ratios. For this reason I'd say it's above 50% game 1 and then it's uphill for the back two. Provided, of course, that your opponent knows what he's doing. At least for the next few months, UW Tempo has that rogue advantage, so you'd probably beat the average skilled tournament pilot (i.e. one who doesn't know specifically how to combat UW Tempo) at a 60-70% clip.
I don't think anybody would play The Rock in the states, though (at least not given the choice). If this type of deck is pretty standard in your meta, you should learn how to pilot Belcher (or SI Pact -- I have it on good authority that SI Pact is better, but I don't really know).
UW Tempo does best against developed metagames (similar I guess to Merfolk or Tempo Threshold). If a metagame is combo-infested, UW Tempo will do much better. A lot of its best matchups are combo decks, and the (especially sideboard) cards that are good against combo aren't good against UW Tempo. Decks that have to sideboard until they beat the combo MU have a lot harder time finding room for Humility and Engineered Plague in the board.
I'm curious what the matchup is like against the 'setup' combo decks like TES, DDANT, and NLS. UW Tempo's clock isn't particularly fast, but I guess the threat of wastelocking prevents those decks from setting up and/or rebuildling comfortably. Not too many people play these decks though so it might be hard to gather definitive results.UW Tempo does best against developed metagames (similar I guess to Merfolk or Tempo Threshold). If a metagame is combo-infested, UW Tempo will do much better. A lot of its best matchups are combo decks, and the (especially sideboard) cards that are good against combo aren't good against UW Tempo. Decks that have to sideboard until they beat the combo MU have a lot harder time finding room for Humility and Engineered Plague in the board.
Which combo do you have the most and least testing against? Combo decks vary significantly from each other and its not always obvious how to go about deciding what to counter.
DDANT is the hardest of that set, since it has multiple win-cons and they're typically easier to resolve. Also, Doomsday costs them almost nothing if it gets countered (compared to Ad Nauseum which at least costs a combo part), and can go infinite to get through Jitte lifegain without cycling Countermagic like IGG. The combo player has to weigh the probability that they draw into more gas with the probability that we draw into more answers.
Wasteland is very significant, but the x-factor in game 1 is Umezawa's Jitte. The ability to gain 4 life at a time (or, combo'd with a Swords to Plowshares, gain 9+ life) can put us out of a low-storm Tendrils. UW Tempo will usually score the kill around turn 7 or 8 (so you have to go off by then), but by turn 4, it could be gaining 4 life a turn and threatening +9 life or more during the next attack step.
The matchup game 1 is still around 50%, more for decks without Doomsday or who rely more on Ad Nauseum, less for decks with Doomsday.
Where it really gets nuts is game 2 and 3. If you don't get the turn 1 kill, every endstep we threaten Enlightened Tutor --> Thorn of Amethyst (or just hardcast Thorn or Ethersworn Canonist). And then every turn after that we threaten Aura of Silence lock as well. There's a lot of pressure put on the Storm combo player to try to pick up a kill before that happens (and these spells come as a complete surprise, unlike creatures which you can plan for). Even though we might not have a clock out, we have some form of a "clock" because you never know when it'll just be, "Oops, I win."
I personally have the most experience against Solidarity. Of the good decks, ANT/TES I've played maybe 30 or 40 games each against. I haven't tested much at all against NLS (maybe 5 games tops, nobody is playing it, really), and then I've played between 15 and 20 games against DDANT. The decks are really skill-dependent. I'd say some genius combo player would probably always win game 1 and then win one of games 2 and 3 most of the time. But I've never run into one of those people, in a tournament or anywhere, and in my limited combo knowledge I can't see any remotely high percentage plays they can make games 2 and 3.
Most of the strong combo matchup is actually in the sideboard. Enlightened Tutor unlocking Wheel of Sun and Moon for Ichorid, Aura of Silence (or Aura Flux or something even more hatey) for Enchantress, and Thorn of Amethyst for combo is an unbelievably strong option that only white has access to. Against those matchups, you don't give a shit about drawing one measly card, because the cards you're digging out end the game.
In general, the package is really compact. I board in 10 cards against storm combo and 11 cards against Ichorid and I have a pretty reasonable board against the rest of the field. 4-5 cards against Zoo and Goblins, a couple cards against the various Thresholds, 5-6 cards against Enchantress, 4-5 against Stax, 5-7 against Lands and Aggro Loam.... Yet at the same time, it doesn't FEEL like a compact sideboard because the board cards that you draw are gamebreaking.
Enlightened Tutor is definitely one of the best board cards in Magic right now, and I'm really surprised people aren't taking advantage of it considering the sheer volume of matches where card advantage is meaningless. You don't play it against other blue decks, but when the opponent can't say, "No" you can really shove some shit down his throat.
I personally have the most experience against Solidarity. Of the good decks, ANT/TES I've played maybe 30 or 40 games each against. I haven't tested much at all against NLS (maybe 5 games tops, nobody is playing it, really), and then I've played between 15 and 20 games against DDANT. The decks are really skill-dependent. I'd say some genius combo player would probably always win game 1 and then win one of games 2 and 3 most of the time. But I've never run into one of those people, in a tournament or anywhere, and in my limited combo knowledge I can't see any remotely high percentage plays they can make games 2 and 3.Interesting. I find that if Solidarity has even 6 turns to go off, it should consistently beat you. I'm a decent pilot, getting better, and I think your clock is just not fast enough. I'd love to do some testing with you some time and see but just looking at your list, I'd feel pretty comfortable trying to go off. I don't like Merfolk because they threaten Standstill, Stifle on fetchlands, daze, Cursecatcher, and FoW. I'm sure that you know a good Solidarity player can find protection and play through Daze/Spell Pierce by turn 6-8. I'm sure that your game gets better in game 2/3, but game 1 certainly looks weak. You can't really board in that much against Solidarity. Both Etutors, Thorn and Cannonist are certainly threats but Aura of Silence doesn't quite work against it. Out of curiosity, who piloted Solidarity in your testing?UW Tempo will usually score the kill around turn 7 or 8 (so you have to go off by then), but by turn 4, it could be gaining 4 life a turn and threatening +9 life or more during the next attack step.
I love Etutor. I've been advocating this card for years. Tool box boards are awesome.Enlightened Tutor is definitely one of the best board cards in Magic right now, and I'm really surprised people aren't taking advantage of it considering the sheer volume of matches where card advantage is meaningless. You don't play it against other blue decks, but when the opponent can't say, "No" you can really shove some shit down his throat.
Randoms, a few people in tournaments (inc. one of the Salvation tournaments, I beat solidarity to go 1-0 before AFK and school sent me to the 1-2 bracket), Jeff back when he played Solidarity <-- definitely the best pilot. It's pretty skill-intensive (and a mistake will cost them the game before my error would cost me a game).
A huge card in the Solidarity matchup that you didn't mention at all is Jotun Grunt.
I'll run into you on the sixth I'm sure, or you can send me a message on AIM and we can play on MWS if you want to before then. I'll say that if you haven't played the matchup, it's probably a lot different than you'd think.
It depends on the list. Flash of Insight lists might be weaker against Grunt, but I play Twincast lists which are even better against countermagic (ie. I twincast your force). I can't imagine Grunt being significant against any other card. You should be going off in someone's upkeep, after Grunt has paid upkeep, that way the opponent dies before he draws, avoiding Grunt entirely.Randoms, a few people in tournaments (inc. one of the Salvation tournaments, I beat solidarity to go 1-0 before AFK and school sent me to the 1-2 bracket), Jeff back when he played Solidarity <-- definitely the best pilot. It's pretty skill-intensive, but my opponents always waited until the last turn and then tried to go off and couldn't kill me.
A huge card in the Solidarity matchup that you didn't mention at all is Jotun Grunt.
I'll run into you on the sixth I'm sure, or you can send me a message on AIM and we can play on MWS if you want to before then.
I own Solidarity so next time I'm at Artifax, I'll bring it with me.
It doesn't work that way. You have to wait until AFTER the upkeep step (i.e. the draw step).
I guess that doesn't include the most recent oracle text, which is:
Oracle text: Cast Reset only during an opponent's turn after his or her upkeep step.
Untap all lands you control.
If you could cast it during the upkeep, it would just say, "Cast only during an opponent's turn." But it's specific to being AFTER the upkeep step, i.e. during the draw step at the earliest. Maybe splitting hairs, but it means that I can't die with Grunt out. They need to come up with a bounce spell for Grunt and if I have Mother of Runes/Vial, they need a bounce spell for that, too (or second Brainfreeze on my next turn). Throw in Ethersworn Canonist and Thorn of Amethyst (which both need bounce spells), and that's the gameplan.
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