If you're really sold on this strategy, I would at least split it 2-2 with Tidal Warrior. Honestly, although Tidal Warrior doesn't cantrip, I think he's going to be better in nearly all situations. They can still play instants, yes, but he's actually a creature, and if he stays on the board for a little while, he can lay down some tribal beats.Originally Posted by _erbs_
Anyhow though, I don't really put him into lists anymore, but I just thought I'd toss in my $0.02
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I very much love Spreading Seas in this deck. It cantrips, it enables your LoA, it disrupts the opponent's manabase, all in one card. The fact that it's not a creature hasn't made that much of a difference to me, and I would always run it before Tidal Warrior. I have tested both and I never like to topdeck tidal warrior, whereas a SS on top isn't too bad. The only non-lord merfolk I run is Cursecatcher and that's because it's a damn good turn one play, otherwise it's all lords for me.
I played at a (very) small tournament today and went undefeated against U/W control, Dredge, and a janky homebrewed G/W deck. Spreading seas were my all-stars. I ran a basic list with Silvergills replaced by SS and 12 lords, no stifle.
I kind of wanted to go back to this idea for a minute. Do y'all think it's possible that Psionic Blast might actually be more flexible in the "something for the mirror match" slot in the sideboard than, for example, Llawan (the thing that most people seem to use if they want something for the mirror...)
From how I usually see the mirror match play out, it seems like four damage at instant speed would very often be enough to win it. But Psionic Blast is pretty flexible as a card to side in on any match that you expect to get down to a race. And granted, it's probably about the worst removal spell you could possibly conceive of, but it's still a removal spell. In blue.
Anyhow, I'm not totally sold on the idea or anything, I just thought I'd bring it up again for further discussion.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I know you guys don't want the idea about spreading seas and seasinger, but seasinger is also good in mirror matches and anything that runs blue. Like what sclabman had pointed out, spreading seas is not such a bad top deck where as tidal warrior mid game is just a 1/1 vanilla body, while the sea can replace itself.
Think of it this way an early mana disruption to light mana decks is sometimes enough to give you the tempo you need to create your army. We all know merfs can't go head to head with other creatures unless they have there 2-3 lords out. Without LoA they would still find it hard to bash heads with a 5/6 tarmogoyf or 6/6 nyxathid, etc.
This might be strange but if merfs is a tier 1 deck why is that it can't perform well in a aggro and control infested meta..., im a merf user for a long time but in our meta not even a single merf deck was able to go into the top 8 be it small or big tourny.
If you say that merfs have good winning percentage against island users but why do italian thresh, supreme blue, aggro bant & bant progen crushes merfs....
I don't mind the spreading seas cards, it seems decent enough to warrent testing.
Seasinger on the other hand just seems poor, regardless. Heck I'm not even sure in what situation you would want to run that over Sower of Temptation.
Although, the combo of having a non summoning sick seasinger and the untap lord would be nice to pull off to steal more than one creature, no matter how INCREDIBILY unlikely it would be.
*edit* NM, that combo doesn't even work, so yea... no idea why one would even play seasinger....
Seasinger is nice because of its ability to take creatures, then change to another creature. Imagine having a card can steal your opponents guys, use them as blockers, then take more of their guys as blockers.
However, in a deck that runs a rather thin spread of creatures to begin with, each creature has a greater marginal utility with every fewer merfolk they run. So as we take away our creatures, in turn they become more and more valuable. A spreading seas + seasinger combination require multiples of to obtain. And are even more costly as each other creature removed becomes more valuable.
Personally, I think the decks greatest vulnerability isn't that its creatures are vastly inferior to creatures in decks like bant/ supreme blue, it's they're more dependent on eachother, and thus more vulnerable, so the need to protect the key creatures are greater. For a deck that already has this vulnerability build in, making the deck more reliant on situational combinations simply doesn't aid in their protection. The point I'm trying to make is we're at a stage in this deck where we're trying to preserve our key cards. When this deck gets to the point whern the cards around it are so good that other people aren't gunning for our lords, because we're able to protect them or there's simply better cards surrounding them, then I can see seasinger as a strong option to improve our board position.
I think Aquitect's Will is probably better than Spreading Seas, for those of y'all that seem hell-bent on trying this strategy. Yes, the draw is more conditional, but it's actually a huge deal that it costs one mana less, and also, it being a Merfolk spell will randomly trigger Reejerey. Who is the fucking boss if you know what you're doing with him.
Having said that, here are a couple points: I could never see playing Seas or Aq. Will as a four-of. Because Stifle already basically does the job of mana disruption way better than these will usually. So, in my opinion, if you're using Aquitect's Will, you're probably playing it as a two of (maybe a three if you want to push it), and mostly it's there to compliment your 3-4 Stifles that you're already running.
So, basically, if you're running a more or less standard version (besides the cards that turn shit into islands), you've basically used up all the free slots between Stifle and Aq. Will. I guess it could work. It doesn't really help out the strategy that about 3 out of 5 decks in Legacy already use Islands though. And it doesn't really do much to improve the game state past a certain early point in the game.
That's basically what I think of it. I think Stifle + Wasteland is usually enough mana disruption. And if I personally wanted more, it would probably be Back to Basics or Pithing Needle in the sideboard, rather than either Spreading Sea's or Aquitect's Will in the main.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Aquitect's Will
'Target land is an Island in ADDITION to it's other types...'
As such, it's shithouse. Sea's Claim is much better, and it is shit too.
DUKE: I also never understoof why Blast isn't played. It deals with most creatures in the format* and can be aimed at the head as well. I've never seen anyone explain exactly WHY it is bad. Someone give us the heads up.
Is it simply because anything in the format that it kills costs equal to or less and as a result your spending more mana than your opponent did plus 2 life?
*Goyf 20% of the time. Mongoose, Terravore, Crusher, Progenitus, Iona, Tombstalker are all I can think of. Yeah that's alot, but it still seems reasonable.
Last edited by arebennian; 02-24-2010 at 11:49 AM.
@Aquitect's Will... D'oh!! Yes, you are correct. They both suck. And Spreading Seas is probably better, which is actually pretty sad.
@Psionic Blast: Yeah. This is what I'm saying. It deals with most creatures out there, or else it can go over the head and dome the opponent.
I tend to play Merfolk pretty aggressively, so I guess Psi Blast fits my playstyle better than some folks'. But I've noticed that very frequently when I lose with this deck, it was pretty close. I think Psionic Blast could possibly turn the tide in those types of games, since it could either get rid of one of their creatures in exchange for two damage (which is probably less than any creature that would be worth killing would deal if we couldn't counter it or kill it). Or else, we can use it as blue direct damage. Which is kind of nutty just in principle.
Has anyone actually tested it out since forever ago?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Would you run Psionic Blast over ETruth? How many would you run?
I remember Psi Blast getting shafted back (it was discussed back at the Salvation forum). Although the meta back then was way different than what it is now.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
When I made my comment about Psi Blast, I was thinking specifically of two games I played that day.
1) Thopter combo. While this is a corner case, I got him down to 4 before he dropped a Moat. Never found the Echoing Truth to bounce it and Psi Blast would've won the game.
2) Zoo. Of course Zoo. Just needed one more bounce/removal to stay alive. (Although I would have put myself in almost burn range.)
I definitely wouldn't replace E. Truth with Psi Blast. I'd run it alongside it. Most likely, I would replace my Submerges in the board with Psi Blast if anything.
On the topic of replacing Submerge, has anyone thought about running Permafrost Trap in that spot? I wonder, what would be better against Zoo: Submerge, Psi Blast, or Permafrost Trap...
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What about Submerge don't you like exactly?
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
Permafrost Trap seems pretty bad to me. It sucks that you can't just, you know, play it when you want to play it, especially since they're probably not playing out creatures before their attack anyway.
Don't you run 2 Kira maindeck? Two of anything has the same chance of being drawn..
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
Nothing, I haven't played with it enough to say anything. I just thought actual removal might be better.
Although I did Submerge my own LoA against Bant once to save him from StP.
Permafrost Trap is probably bad though. It just seems like it would slow them down better when it actually works though.
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I don't understand what warrants the trollish post like this. Obviously I know the percentage of drawing 2 of one card is the same as 2 of the other card. 2 is not enough to consistently hit her, and if the opponent hits the cards they board against you (Propaganda, Llawan, Jitte, even Wake Thrasher or Selkie sometimes) without you seeing the cards you boarded against them you lose without being extremely lucky. Having 2 of the card for the mirror match was not enough to break the parity of the mirror match, and if the opponent randomly had 3 Jittes and 2 Selkies sideboard I was screwed.
Kira on the other hand does not need to be drawn to win, never wants to be drawn in multiples, and does a fine job of being a 2-of, as does Echoing Truth because in long drawn out games you might have the time to wait for a bounce spell (and don't want to draw more than one).
Permafrost Trap is garbage. Submerge kills creatures if the opponent uses fetchlands, granted not right away, or at the very least loses them a turn of swinging with that creature and their next draw. It's a huge tempo boost and if you're ever lucky enough to chain submerges it buys you a ton of time. Oh and permafrost trap costs 4 if the if clause doesn't work, which is so bad it hurts. Submerge's alternate cost is incredibly easy to use.
Psionic blast costs 3. Our curve ends at 3 and is generally pretty heavy on 3 costing cards. It's ability is relevant as it takes out problem creatures in quite a few matchups, but hurting yourself and doing 4 damage foris really pushing the boundaries of playable. I haven't tested it but I'm rather certain it's not going to be a great card. Would love to be proved wrong though, running burn would be a lot of fun.
Fair enough - does this mean you've opted to spend more than 2 slots in the side for the mirror, or have instead focused on SB'ing for other decks?
Anyways on another topic, how bad is a resolved Jitte against us (by any aggro deck, not just Merfolk mirrors)? Assume you're running 10-12 Lords. I'm sure we've all read tournament reports where the writer has lost games solely due to Jitte. I understand Kira goes a way to slowing an opponents Jitte down, but if local meta was 10%-15% deck which packed Jitte in some form would you: a) not be worried, just counter/fight through it (b) pack your own Jittes to win with/blow theirs up (c) change decks.
Maybe I'm just fearing unnecessarily.
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
In my exprience in playing merfs, a resolved jitte is almost a win for your opponent. Especially if you can't block the creature whos holding it or have superior combat ability like 1st strike.
snip---frogboyI don't understand what warrants the trollish post like this. Obviously I know the percentage of drawing 2 of one card is the same as 2 of the other card. 2 is not enough to consistently hit her, and if the opponent hits the cards they board against you (Propaganda, Llawan, Jitte, even Wake Thrasher or Selkie sometimes) without you seeing the cards you boarded against them you lose without being extremely lucky. Having 2 of the card for the mirror match was not enough to break the parity of the mirror match, and if the opponent randomly had 3 Jittes and 2 Selkies sideboard I was screwed.
Kira on the other hand does not need to be drawn to win, never wants to be drawn in multiples, and does a fine job of being a 2-of, as does Echoing Truth because in long drawn out games you might have the time to wait for a bounce spell (and don't want to draw more than one).
Permafrost Trap is garbage. Submerge kills creatures if the opponent uses fetchlands, granted not right away, or at the very least loses them a turn of swinging with that creature and their next draw. It's a huge tempo boost and if you're ever lucky enough to chain submerges it buys you a ton of time. Oh and permafrost trap costs 4 if the if clause doesn't work, which is so bad it hurts. Submerge's alternate cost is incredibly easy to use.
Psionic blast costs 3. Our curve ends at 3 and is generally pretty heavy on 3 costing cards. It's ability is relevant as it takes out problem creatures in quite a few matchups, but hurting yourself and doing 4 damage for
In fact, 1 has the most purpose, by the property of diminishing returns. What matters isn't how much total % increase you get, but the marginal bang for your buck, and the first llawan obviously increases your chance to draw a llawan by more than any other llawan. This and other reasons already mentioned demonstrate your reasoning is flawed.
EDIT: I should say *if you care about winning* then what matters is your marginal utility increase. Why? Because the way decision-making works is you decide if one card at a time. There's no reason to restrain yourself to making decisions, say, 4 cards at a time. To build a deck, you maximize utility 75 times. The only reason it "feels like" synergies have to be taken into account is because that's reflected in utility. I mean, I'll admit that the "75 times" comment is approximate. I'm not a game theorist, but I am a math major and I think I just realized that it might be order dependent. For instance, it's possible to choose the wrong card to be the first utility maximizer, only to have that lead to massive gains relative to the "maximize at every step" plan. But this is bickering among reasonable strategies. If you care to win, you should pick something that at least resembles a marginal utility maximizing plan.
Last edited by frogboy; 02-25-2010 at 11:49 PM.
I completely plan to try it out at Richmond this Sunday. Oh shit giving away my super secret tech!Psionic blast costs 3. Our curve ends at 3 and is generally pretty heavy on 3 costing cards. It's ability is relevant as it takes out problem creatures in quite a few matchups, but hurting yourself and doing 4 damage for
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