Alright, I'll concede. Magma Jet isn't mandatory. However, it's really not a card that should be dropped. While multiples do slow tempo tremendously, it falls under a similar philosophy as Fireblast; yea, multiples suck, but it's necessary because of it's role in the deck.
Magma Jet might initially slow down tempo, requiring 2 mana for only 1 damage, but it makes up for the tempo lost by gaining tempo by putting 2 worthless topdecks to the bottom of library. If you don't need landfall to trigger and have 2-3 lands in play already, a Scry 2 revealing 2 lands would have normally cost you 2 full turns of tempo loss, which is far greater of a tempo gain than doing only 2 damage for 2 mana.
Magma Jet fixes draws in a deck that relies heavily on the topdeck, and has no other means of fixing draws. To me, this is invaluable.
Also, I want to end my Magma Jet discussion on this final point:
If you play a Steppe Lynx on turn 1, casting Magma Jet on turn 2 to destroy the opponent's blocker is a very strong play, often setting Steppe Lynx up for two 4 damage swings.
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On a different note, inspired by zabuza from the LBoros Landfall thread:
---I disagree. 12 has been sufficient in testing, especially with 4 Magma Jet. I'm not saying that more couldn't be better. The problem with running any more than 12 fetchlands, though, is that you either need to run more than 19 lands (which is wrong), or cut mana producing lands.The problem is that this deck needs at least 14 fetch to effectively abuse from landfall. The less fetch you play, the worst lynxes are. Rohner (the player who uses this deck for first time) and his teammates assures that 15 fetch is the right number. In testing 14 fetch is ok, but less make the deck worse.
Running 2/2 Plateau/Taiga is the correct call. Cutting one shuts you off of a color for the rest of the game from a single Wasteland. Do not go below 2/2.
Other than that, I'm running 3 basic Mountains. I would not go below 2 basic mountains. I run 33 spells that require red mana (only), and in alot of games, I don't even need green or white. Especially if you know you're facing Wasteland, having 2 mountains in play is very strong. This deck needs at least 2 lands in play to function properly.
Now that you mention it though, I'll go ahead and drop down to 2 Mountains for 1 Scalding Tarn. 2 basic Mountains is all the deck needs to function off of through Wasteland/Wastelock, and the 13th fetchland should improve consistency.
Oh, and this "new" Sligh deck probably needs a thread new primer, because the entire concept has changed from the OP. The entire creature base, aside from the 2 Grim Lavamancer's, is completely different now. 3 new creatures have been printed that have radically changed Sligh. The deck no longer runs Tarmogoyf, which is the trademark of this threads name and deck design. If Goyf Sligh got a new thread and primer when being switched from Dryad Sligh, especially considering that those two are much more closely related than Goyf Sligh to his one, I'd say that warrants a new thread and primer.
I'd say that a title of R/w/g Naya Sligh would be the appropriate name for it, but I definitely don't have the time to write up a huge detailed primer. I haven't even gotten around to working on the U/W Counterbalance Landstill primer I was supposed to, and probably won't ever get around to.
If anyone wants to take this job on, kudos to you my good sir. On the bright side, if this deck picks up in popularity, you'll have your name (since you created the thread) on a deck that's DTB.
Sorry for the double post, but I had some new content.
Before I get started, I'd like to say that I love how Steppe Lynx makes me hate land floods much less than before. Between the increased fetchlands for land thinning, Steppe Lynx, and Fireblast, I'm very pleased with the curve. Normally I never wanted to see more than 3 lands, and was often content with 2, but I find myself less angry about seeing 4 lands now. Seeing more than 4 still sucks most of the time, especially without Steppe Lynx or Fireblast, but that's obviously no worse than before. The fact that I can keep excess lands in hand (or uncracked fetchlands in play), and actually put them to good use when I topdeck a Steppe Lynx (or Fireblast), makes the deck less effected by land floods now.
---
I'm wondering if Grim Lavamancer is really worth it anymore, with the new changes. While Grim Lavamancer offers a very unique and very powerful ability to the deck, it's also fairly slow and requires a fairly big mana investment. Is the extra reach/staying power it adds really necessary anymore? It costs two mana to deal the first 2 damage, and one additional mana for each additional 2 damage after that.
In comparison with the other 1cc creatures, Grim Lavamancer can still average 6 damage in one spell, and oftentimes can do more than that, but it requires a much larger mana investment.
In comparison with the other 1cc creatures, Grim Lavamancer costs four mana to average 6 damage instead of just one.
The thing that keeps me loyal to Grim Lavamancer is the fact that he functions as a reusable burn spell rather than an attacking creature. This makes him great at removing blockers for your other creatures to swing through with, and allows him to still push damage through after the ground gets stalled by guys like Tarmogoyf.
The other thing that keeps me loyal to him is that I've won alot of matchups with him. The mana investment is split between multiple turns rather than all at once, and sometimes uses excess mana sources that would otherwise be unused.
What I like is that it's basically a Burst Lightning on a "stick." The first turn you cast it, it does nothing but consume 1 mana, which costs tempo. Every turn after that though, # of cards in the graveyard depending, it is basically an extra Burst Lightning. This adds a huge amount of extra reach and last power that I'm not sure I'm ready to get rid of.
Only problem is, 3 Burst Lightnings do the same damage as 2 Lightning Bolts, and this guy costs a pre-emptive 1 mana which also has no immediate effect the turn it's cast. So essentially, I'm spending 4 mana to do the same amount of damage I could have done spending only 2 mana. Again, the question is: Is the extra reach/staying power it adds really necessary anymore?
With all the radical innovation I've implemented into Sligh in the last few days, with much help from many others, I think his inclusion warrants new testing.
---
For those that still have some faith in Tarmogoyf, it could quite possibly be the correct desicion to run 2 Tarmogoyf instead of 2 Grim Lavamancer. The role of Tarmogoyf in here would be similar to the role of Woolly Thoctar in Zoo. Basically, a higher-costed big ass creature, that is ran as a 2-of to round out the curve.
Tarmogoyf only requires a two mana investment one time. The only thing I don't like about that, is that Tarmogoyf cast on turn 2 consumes the entire turns mana resources, and he cannot swing until turn 3. Sometimes he only swings for 3 damage, which makes it even worse. On turn three, even when he does swing for 4, I'm spending two mana on a creature that averages 4 damage on the same turn that my other 12 (1cc) creatures average 6 damage. Often, I'm done attacking by turn 3, rarely do I go past turn 4. Regardless, Tarmogoyf is almost always a 4/5 by turn 4, and can sometimes be even bigger depending on the opponent's deck (or whether or not I run Tarfire or Seal of Fire).
Anyways, much of the reason I'm done attacking by turn 3 or turn 4 is because larger creatures are now in play. Unlike Wild Nacatl and Goblin Guide, Tarmogoyf can still be a threat during this time, and now with Steppe Lynx, he (Lynx) can also be a threat if I can manage to drop another fetchland or two. 4 Steppe Lynx 2 Tarmogoyf may make it possible for me to effectively attack for an extra turn or two that I normally wouldn't.
A new conflict arises from an extended attacking plan though, which is whether or not to cut Burst Lightning for Path to Exile. Path to Exile is a worthless topdeck if the attacking plan is no longer effective (or the opponent has no blockers in the first place), where Burst Lightning is never a dead card. Both function as a 1cc early game removal spell, though, and Path to Exile offers a removal option that burn doesn't, which is to answer guys with larger tougnesses. Interesting conflict.
If one were to go this route, this would slow the deck down some. The point of Lynx was to speed the deck up. Just like my questioning for Grim Lavamancer: Is the extra reach/staying power it adds really necessary anymore?
Obviously, no Goyf and no Path to Exile is going to be faster and more aggressive, at the cost of midgame strength. Is faster better, or is more midgame strength better? That's the recurring question here, and that's something that I truly need to do extensive playtesting with to come up with the correct answer.
---
Basically, both Goyf and Lavamancer are slow, but they both give the deck additional reach/staying power. Goyf slows the deck down much worse than Lavamancer when cast on turn 2, but doesn't require any additional mana investment after that. Grim Lavamancer doesn't slow the deck down as bad as Goyf on any particular turn, but slows the deck down continuously over the course of all turns. Goyf is going to do a far greater amount of damage for the mana invested, while Grim Lavamancer is going to more reliably deal damage.
One final comparison to note is that Tarmogoyf costing 2 mana helps give the deck a few extra spells out of the 1cc range, even though Chalice@1 is going to be a bitch preboard regardless.
I'm pretty sure that after testing, I will conclude that Grim Lavamancer is still the correct call, I just wanted to toss this idea out there. In all honesty, it's possible that neither Grim Lavamancer nor Tarmogoyf are necessary in the deck anymore, and that either another creature or burn spell would be better, or that another card will get printed in an upcoming set that will take over this 2-of spot. My guess is that nothing fills the void well enough right now, and if anything, it would be Price to Progress.
However, I'm very hopeful that Wizard's will eventually print just one more insane spell that affects this deck, that will either replace the current Grim Lavamancer spots, replace the current Burst Lightnings spots, or both.
Long post is long.
That is all.
What about Reckless Abandon?
Rules Advisor
Hey yo Hanni, I wasn't doing much official testing, but after my initial somewhat untested praise of grim, I've come to the conclusion that I'm not really liking him either. He's best at totally neutering opposing armies and this deck has faster plans than just removing guys (basically just removing guys for big steppe lynx/guide swings). I'm not sure what I would replace him with. I know you hate lava spike and I agree with you but I'm going to try it for a little bit and see what happens.
The only other thing that worries me is that with creature heavy hands, you are somewhat forced to overextend in order to hasten the clock so your opponent can't stabilize, which makes you die badly to sweepers. Don't know if you have encountered this at all, just something I've noticed a couple times. Is it worth it to play around a deck you know is running sweepers if your hand is creature heavy? Or should we just always go balls to the walls...
Also what do you side PTE in against exactly? Having swords effects is a little different for this deck so I was wondering what you were doing with that.
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
I'm not ready to cut Grim Lavamancer yet, just wanted to toss that idea out there.Hey yo Hanni, I wasn't doing much official testing, but after my initial somewhat untested praise of grim, I've come to the conclusion that I'm not really liking him either. He's best at totally neutering opposing armies and this deck has faster plans than just removing guys (basically just removing guys for big steppe lynx/guide swings). I'm not sure what I would replace him with. I know you hate lava spike and I agree with you but I'm going to try it for a little bit and see what happens.
Seems like less of an issue for us than it would be for Zoo, though. I'd play the creature heavy hands and overextend, because the 27 burn spells in the deck have to get topdecked sometime. Maybe hold a guy back if you fear a sweeper, but most sweepers come online a bit too late.The only other thing that worries me is that with creature heavy hands, you are somewhat forced to overextend in order to hasten the clock so your opponent can't stabilize, which makes you die badly to sweepers. Don't know if you have encountered this at all, just something I've noticed a couple times. Is it worth it to play around a deck you know is running sweepers if your hand is creature heavy? Or should we just always go balls to the walls...
Ichorid. Dreadnought. Dark Depths. Pretty savage against the low threat density decks like Tempo Thresh and Team America, too.Also what do you side PTE in against exactly? Having swords effects is a little different for this deck so I was wondering what you were doing with that.
EE can come online turn two, especially during games 2 and 3, if they mull into it.
Rules Advisor
I said most.
God Tier: Wrath of God, Damnation. Slow and almost never see play.
Normal Tier: Firespout, Flamebreak, EE, Moat. Goyf and Thoctar/Knight live through the first two, EE can't hit everything, and Moat is an enchantment. Slight downsides but all good vs me.
Shit Tier: Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout. 2 damage doesn't kill anything but pridemages and grim (if the list even runs him).
That being said, as Zoo I haven't had any problems with overextending into sweepers. One goyf and a nacatl is plenty to ride to victory while keeping dudes in my hand (I play very conservatively and default to falling into the control role even as aggro - which is a mixed blessing). A lot of these new decks seem to think it's fine to run a tiny amount of creatures so even one resolved path really hurts. Plus I have plenty of burn to go the distance after the man plan slows down (I run 13-15 odd burn).
As I see it you have the following as MUST haves or the deck core:
13+ fetches
2 taiga
2 plateu
1 mountain
and extra fetch or mountain
4 steppe lynx
4 gobo guide
4 wild nactl
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
3 magma jet (4)
3 fire blast (4)
So your optional slots:
4th fireblast or magma jet ( i likely agree 4 is correct)
2-3 grim lavamancer
i think 2 is required and 3 is better, it beats for 1, kills blockers , and gives u dmg options if u get slowed down or get cb locked.
I personally run 2 seals of fire which has single handedly won me dredge games.
Now the real point of my post and the question I ask myself is this:
I have been testing 4 goyf and as much as I love goyf when the games going well you dont want him. When its going bad or your playing mid range naya zoo you pray for him. I have been considering md'ing 3 and sbing 1.
The other thing I have been considering is Q pridemage:
It gets rid of jitte, chalice at 1 and counterbalance. Hes also a 3/3 attacker on his own and +1 dmg on turn 2 if you made your 1 drop.
The only thing that bothers me is the GW.
Also do ppl think duergar hedge mage or k grip is optimal for a diverse meta.
Additional Comment:
Your storm match up is good. I played ANT 5 matches and won 60% on the play and about 55% on the draw ( im aware thats not alot of dats) It just seems like unless they have the nuts opener they dont have 2 turns to ponder then ad naus. Yer often having them at 10 at the end of your turn 2 with fireblast 6 they cant adnaus out of that.
I also havent had much concern for dredge after playing it. Its rough but I have managed to race them about 50/50 throughout the match so the die rolls super important.
So in effect my sideboard has nothing to deal with either.
3 price of progress
4 vexxing shusher
3 sulfuric vortex
1 tarmo
4 pridemage
questions comments etc i have a week till a scg 5k and want to get thing optimised.
OK, hopefully we can back on track ..... Goyf sligh is a sligh deck with goyf... now I understand everyone's definition of sligh is sightly altered.. we can agree there must be creatures and burn... Goyf sligh used to be all red and goyf with sideboard grip. when nactal was printed I thought why not just add the platuea and get rid of the dead superman "mogg fanatic".. I then was getting mad in the goyf on goyf match ups... Who ever got out more goyfs won.... I then added swords / path... which took away a burn spell or creature from the deck " situational".... Then everyone was playing around POP. this got me mad so I put in rift bolts instead... But the way the format is going there are lots more non basic lands coming back out so I believe pop is back in or at least in the sideboard... I'm now playing ....
4 wild nacatl
4 figure of destiny
4 tarmogoyf
3 vexing shushers
4 grim lavamancer
3 keldon marauders
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 magma jet
3 Price Of Progress
3 fireblast
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn or
3 plateau
4 taiga
1 barbarian ring
4 mountain
sb
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
3 mindbreak trap
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
3 ravenous trap
1 relic of progenitus
stll testing !!!!!!!!!!!
Hello everyone, I am a scrub. Thoughts on my list?
mb//
4 wooded foothill
4 bloodstained mire
2 badlands
4 taiga
5 mountains
1 forest
4 hellspark elemental
4 grim lavamancer
4 keldon marauders
4 mogg fanatic
4 tarmogoyf
4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
2 price of progress
2 fireblast
4 magma jet
4 rift bolt
sb//
2 price of progress
4 yixlid jailer
4 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
3 ravenous trap
So I played Goyfsligh in a tournament yesterday since I've been feeling like Zoo's overexposure in the meta has been dragging its matchups down. Most of the hate for Zoo (RWM, EE, Extra plows) isn't as much of a problem for Sligh as it is for Zoo. So in preparation for the next Vestal tournament, I decided to try out Sligh for a day.
Report is here:http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ort-collection
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sylvan Library
2 Reckless Charge
2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
SB:
4 Path to Exile
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
2 Smash to Smithereens
I talked about the list in the report, but I felt I should cross post it here since nobody's really been talking about this deck lately which I feel is a mistake, because I think it's pretty well positioned.
good work i should say...i agree with you of Zoo being over rated..like i said before, the only advantage Zoo has over Goyfsligh is Pridemage; if Pridemage was RG and not GW i think people will play Sligh more..i wouldn't even care if i don't have Thoctars or Reliquaries..again congratulations and good work
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