Do you honestly think the value of an English Tabernacle would drop so much if it were reprinted in some sort of WB form?Originally Posted by andrew77
In your specific case, given the amount of pimp you own, you shouldn't be too concerned :p
I would think you've been around long enough to know the answer to this. If they reprinted Tabernacle, with today's print runs, the Legends one would go from $225 to about $15 overnight.
Find me on Twitter at @JMJACO and @EternalCentral. If you have an interest in Vintage Eldrazi, check out my book Eldrazi Meditations.
Maybe... but not for a long time. Look at the Birds of Paradise. M10=$4.99, beta=$169.99
I would ever prefer WB revised dual lands over BB reprinted dual lands in new ugly frame... even if the old one had current price and the new one cost $10.
The print run of legends was much larger than that of Alpha and Beta. When you add in italian legends there are going to be around 8-10 times as many tabernacle's as A/B bop's. I doubt prices will drop as drastically as Jaco said, but tabernacles would drop to about $50 overnight and continue down towards $20-$30 as time passes.
Also as Mr. C said if you currently have pimp cards like Alpha/Beta, Korean, Jap foi etcl you won't really be affected by any reprints. Even if they reprinted dual lands and made them mythics and you get get jap foil ones Alpha would still be more expensive.
Are we talking about a FTV style reprint or a full-fledged Chronicles 2?
Tabernacles on MODO are a dollar or two. I can't imagine real ones holding any price over $50-75 if they were reprinted.
IF WoTC created a FTV: Dual Lands, the existing dual lands would drop considerably. If they did a white-bordered Chronicles 2011 everything they reprinted would drop even more. If they did DCI Judge Foil Tabernacles the Legends ones would drop considerably. If they printed FNM Foil Imperial Recruiters and Loyal Retainers the P3K versions would be a very very small fraction of their current cost (think $5 or less for each; they're both uncommons). If they did an exact functional reprint of Tabernacle with a different name (ie. 'Takethiscockinyourass of the Pendrell Vale') it would drop the value the same. The latter is the direction I think Wizards' will eventually go once someone with their head not up their ass takes a look at the Grand Prix attendance from the past few years and realizes Legacy would actually be the most popular format if they supported it on a full-time basis (because it already generates the highest attendance time and time again even without true support!). That way they increase supply of rare cards without the need to break any Reserve List promises.
It doesn't matter how you introduce reprints. More supply generally equates to a lower price point of both the original version and the reprinted version. History has shown that there's an initial spike because of interest, and then a sizeable drop-off in prices for individual cards.
When I say a Legends Tabernacle would drop to $15 overnight with a reprint that's a bit of hyperbole. It would take a few months for it to reach that low, but I absolutely believe it would. I was actively buying and selling during the original Chronicles printing, and it wasn't pretty for people who were collectors or dealers (and many got out at that time). Crappy Legends rares like the dragons went from $30-40 each to like $3 in short order, as did things like Carrion Ants, City of Brass, Ernham Djinn, etc. As for the white border versions? They really aren't worth dick now, either. The only reason Tabernacle would remain at $15 is because it's highly playable in a good deck (as a 1 to 2 of, people should note), and people would still be occassionally seeking out an actual Legends copy to complete their sets.
Find me on Twitter at @JMJACO and @EternalCentral. If you have an interest in Vintage Eldrazi, check out my book Eldrazi Meditations.
Functional Reprints aren't allowed with the reserve list. Now, if they nix it and go that route, I would be plenty happy.
Honestly, if they printed new dual lands that were legacy viable (like M2010 lands with basic land types, or lands that ETBT unless you reveal a card of one of the two colors it produces - also with basic land types), I think the whole dual land argument would go away. And to me, that's the biggest barrier to starting legacy - the insanely expensive manabases required.
People would still want original duals if they wanted the absolute best card playable, but a very very large percentage would be okay with m2010 lands with basic types in the majority of decks.
Guess you haven't noticed the latest stuff coming out. Phyrexian Negator is getting his reprint and it seems Wizards is going to use the old loophole of printing special purpose foils to reprint cards again for more widely printed materials than just promos now.
I can almost guarantee if they reprinted Tabernacle in any form at all it would hurt the price of the original tremendously just due to the fact of what decks use it. Not many. It's rarity and lack of replacements for decks are it's largest selling features. Any possible way to use another card would kill the original's price, it's not a widespread use card.
Functional reprints _still_ aren't allowed by the reserve list - printing premium (ie foil) versions are. I'm quite aware of the new duel decks, thank you.
I'd be fine with Tabs around 25-50, but at 200-300, it's simply out of reach for a good percentage of players. Obviously, if wizards does decide to go with the new Chronicles set - they'd have to price the packs at a higher point, and make cards like tabernacle mythic to at least attempt to maintain some value. I tend to believe the guys at wizards are pretty smart, and I think they could pull it off in a way that makes the format playable for a larger chunk of players, but doesn't completely screw over all of us who bought in before it got 'popular'.
If you bought in before prices rose a bunch, then you aren't getting "screwed over," you're just not making a profit. It's the people buying cards NOW, when prices are high, who could actually lose money - which is one more reason to do something about high prices sooner rather than later, if you ask me. The longer they wait, the worse the crash will eventually be.
why , what is the rush to suddenly play obscure tier 2 decks , surely there are others in all of legacy to play.
Are you talking about the same wizards that designed zendikar before they decide to make the m10 rules change so now a bunch of zendikar cards are utter garbage thanks to no more damage on the stack?
Or are you talking about the wizards thats number one interest is making money?
I highly doubt wizards is smart enough to do anything correctly and for that reason prefer they do nothing. Personally whatever they do wouldn't affect me as Alpha, Korean and Jap foil cards won't drop in value. Sure, I'd lose out on some things like p3k and tabernacle, but I'm also one of the people who bought a bunch of tabernacles at $100 after 43 lands dominated the first 3 SCG 5k's so even if the lone tabernacle I own now becomes worthless I'll still have made money.
Also considering that people considered $100 restrictive until recently and now we have $300 cards in legacy where does wizards draw the line? Tarmogoyf was pushing over $70 a few weeks ago. Imagine all the new legacy players being drawn in by low costs of duals etc that you guys want. That will only increase demand of other cards. Then what? Reprint those too? All reprinting cards will do is start an endless cycle that will eventually drive down the value of cards as a whole.
As long as type 2 decks can cost well over $300 and extended decks can cost well over $600 it's hard to expect legacy decks to be on par with that. Even now with all the price increases very few legacy decks break the $1000 mark and you know you'll be able to resell the cards for at least that much.
I would much rather have a demand driven economy than a supply driven economy.
Yeah, I tend to agree. Also, for those of us who think dual lands and cards such as Force of Will, which are needed for a several tier one decks, need some kind of price limitation get their arguments completely undermined by going off the deep end and mentioning reprinting Tabernacle. Personally, I'm completely fine with niche cards like Imperial Recruiter, Tabernacle or even Moat staying at high values, because as Some Guy says, we don't need to play every deck.
I just really fundamentally disagree with necessary cards being too expensive. By necessary I mean utility cards or must-haves. Force of Will is certainly one, and so is Tarmogoyf. If you're playing blue, I'm sure you're playing Force of Will. If you're playing ANY color, it seems you splash green for Tarmo. Seems to me, those must-haves should not be too expensive. Cards like Natural Order or Entomb, I'm more or less fine with being expensive because they are not auto-includes.
I was talking to a Sourcer who said he'd like to splash white in Merfolk, but can't afford to. To me, that's ridiculous and unhealthy, that you can't afford to splash a colour. Call me insane (do it, I dare ya . . . I once shot a man in Reno justa watch 'em die), but I think a manabase should be the most accessible part of the game, not the sole barrier to slashing a color.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
I like this. Period.
This is the same principle that sees Wizards divide Mythic from Rare. Dual lands and utility cards like Maelstrom Pulse that have a wide application could have been printed at Mythic. You don't have to play with Baneslayer Angel to have a DTB; it too could be seen as a niche card. Sure if goes in alot of decks, but certainly not ALL decks that could play it (just look at LSV's list 'Boss Naya', that played Stoneforge mystic and equipment in preference).
If card supply is that much of a problem the best solution would be for wizards to just institute a rule that allows proxies in legacy at the cost of $2/ proxy with all money going towards prize support. This won't destroy the prices of cards and it won't impact sales of new cards as most proxies will be oop cards. I doubt this is what wizards will do as their main interest is to make money and if they this something as simple as reprint tabernacle as a mythic rare in any upcoming set that would increase sales tremendously.
Actually now that I think of it I know how wizards can make money while doing this. They can make gold bordered proxies and only proxies printed by them are legal. This is perfect. Wizards makes money (thats the only way they'll do anything); everyone who already owns the cards doesn't have to worry about losing money; players who can't afford cards can now just proxy them for a fraction of the cost;prize support is increased. Total success.
Wont proxies affect the price of a card by as much as reprinting it? Given most players own expensive cards due to their playability, and if they can legally proxy these cards there is no longer a reason for owning them, thus reducing demand and lowering price?
"Don't let your mind wander - it might not come back." -Braids, dementia summoner
Clearly they have no idea what they're doing - it's not like this is the most successful CCG of all time and has been going for 15+ years straight.
And how dare they want to earn money on their corporate product! They should be in this for the love of the game, not just to make a paycheck.
I'm tired of these arguing points - honestly man, Wizards is a company and they are in the business of making money. They do this by making a card game. They've been doing this for 15 years, and everything has been fine. The rules change actually made you have to think about things - instead of there being a single correct way to do things, there is now a decision tree where there wasn't one before.
Sure, there are other decks - and I honestly don't have a problem with some obscure cards being worth more - but lands has been putting up solid tournament results lately, I'd hardly call it an obscure tier 2 deck. It's when you have a pretty key card in the deck that costs more than some decks in total - and other decks are starting to approach that level of absurdity (Tarmos at $60, FoWs going up to $40ish). I agree a market driven economy for the game is generally better - but at the same time, if the market drives cards up to the point where the average player cannot get into it - that's not a good thing.
Fresh blood is what makes formats work. If we alienate players with a huge buy-in cost, the format is going to start going the way of Vintage.
I don't think wizards could really stipulate that tournament hosts have to charge more for proxies. They don't control the entry fees. While I'd be on-board with being able to sanction proxy events - it kind of goes against wizard's MO. I could see something stating that you can proxy cards from the old face, or you can proxy cards on the reserve list or something, but I don't think there'd be any way to enforce an extra $2 per proxy. (seems a little high too, most vintage events that are proxy have a certain number you just _get_, then an extra dollar a proxy beyond that.) The reserve list also prohibits wizards printing proxies - as the cards being printed would not be premium, but certainly would be intended for tournament play.
Honestly, we either need staple reprints (read: tarmogoyf, original duals, fow, etc) - or we need mostly serviceable replacements. Power level for replacement duals need to be between original duals and shocklands - need to be fetchable and not so bad that they put you at a significant disadvantage by playing them.
or maybe it did well because not many people have sideboard to properly combat a deck with 43 lands in it. I want to drive nice car , but I have decent car. but just because I want to drive nice car , doesnt mean I need to drive nice car. my car is still functional and they both would get me to one place to the next. if I save my money I can eventually sell my decent car and buy a nice car , that is my choice , but it is not a right.
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