Heehee, rock on namedropping the fuck out of me.
He's a nice guy, and he truly plays Magic for fun, so it's pretty easy to root for him. Hope that he does well tomorrow (although I don't think he reads TS).
So I was talking to one of the creators of the deck MATT - anyways MATT is a really nice guy and MATT MATT JEFF MATT MATT MATT Stoneforge Mystic MATT MATT MATT MATT
Think that sounds about right.
Anyways - has anyone else got any playtime in with Shapeshifter?
Hello,
I've been testing this deck on mws and tried adding 2 kor skyfisher in the mix, he was okay as he could net you tons of cards by returning fathom seers or himself and repeat the process. I removed the white orchid and less 1 mother of runes to the original list.
I've tried running foil aswell since most of the time you have tons of lands in your hand, but i think 2 is the max number, i just replace the spell pierce.
And how has this been working for you?Originally Posted by _erbs_
Is there anything else you'd want to bounce other than fathom seer? Stoneforge is the only other guy I can think of - and in most situations you probably won't need/want to do that.
Foil seems like an awful lot of card disadvantage for a free counter.
@pi4meterftw
The skyfishers where okay, but more than 2 i think is not good aswell. Besides its bounce effect on the fathom seer she's a decent beater with evasion. Come to think of it 80-90% of my wins came from her or serra avenger. Grunts most of the time dies after 3 or 4 counters on it, if your opponent has tons of creatures grunts are almost useless.
3 mother of runes was okay aswell i find her just more of a blocker and protector for your finisher which currently are serra avenger and skyfisher in my list. I find that against slow decks in where you must go aggro mode early the deck really lacks the muscle to do it. If you don't draw any jitte or serra avenger your clock is pretty slow.
@stuckpixel
Besides the two you could bounce your lands so you could activate wayfarer and drop equips and equip them. Like ive said the skyfisher is a decent beater with evasion. But more than 2 is not good aswell.
As for the foil, at first i tried running emyprial armor since most of the time i had 2-3-4 land cards on my hand and at times spell snare or spell pierce is just crappy and daze mid to late game is almost useless and just food for force.
I picked up this deck for a relatively small tournament today. Pretty standard list, -1 SFM +1 Daze since I couldn't find a SFM. Also a pretty basic sideboard. 4 rounds, 3-0-1 (split).
vs GR Stuff
G1 - Looked like a slow sligh. Saw Seal of Fire, Keldon Mauraders, and various burn spells. I quickly overwhelmed him.
G2 - He plays two Mogg Fanatics and a Troll that didn't last long enough to equip a Warhammer to my KotWO.
vs Dredge
G1 - Pretty close game. He was new to the deck, so he spent his time swinging Bloodghasts into my blockers and tried playing around my counters despite the fact that he had 2 Cabal Therapies in his graveyard.
G2 - He leads with a Careful Study discarding a PImp and a Troll. I play a fetch, crack it for Tundra, pass. He dredges, plays a Tribe and I EOT Tutor for Wheel of Sun and Moon. My turn, Plains, play it. He reads it and scoops. He didn't have any CoV in his deck and explained that he was told to "see what kind of hate people bring in".
vs Canadian Thresh
G1 - Lots of trading. My clock is slow, but Grunt resets him.
G2 - He gets color screwed, but we end up locking the ground before Grunt pushes him too far behind to matter.
vs NOPro Bant CBTop
Offers the draw, I accept. Mostly because CBTop is slightly intimidating. But we play for fun. He has an early Trygon which eats my Vial, I eat a couple swings before he also lays out a Clique. Eventually I find a Grunt and Jitte to clean up the air while maintaining my ground lock. I Fathom Seer 2 times looking for answers. Eventually it comes to me in the form of Serra Avenger. I play it with 2 life left. He tries to NO, but meets a Daze. Avenger ends up going all the way.
10 packs and traded a Tundra (extra!) for a Jace (new one).
This deck does a good job of locking the ground up with Mom, but the clock feels awful if you don't have an Avenger or Jitte kinda like erbs mentioned. Grunt doesn't last nearly long enough. Are there any other good beat options?
You guys keep mentioning the fact that the deck seems slow without Serra Avenger or Umezawa's Jitte, but that is what Brainstorm and fetchlands are for (plus Fathom Seer). There is also Weathered Wayfarer, which thins the deck out considerably. I am not sure if Stoneforge Mystic is good or not, but that would also seem to solve the "problem" of not finding a threat fast enough. Finding threats does not seem to be this deck's problem. I would think the opponent implementing his strategy would be the problem, which is why there is Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce and mana denial.
For the way I play the deck (and I may be completely wrong, so correct me in any case) I don't see jotun as my main beater. That is serra avenger. Jotun is like my crucible/academy ruins/volrath's stronghold all in one, as it puts on bottom all the things my opponent traded 1 for 1 with their counters, gives us more wastelands, puts on bottom pitch for fow and brainstorm/sowrds, etc. So Jotun is my main recursion tool, I don't find myself siding him out very often. Plus, it punishes players playing tarmogoyf for playing tarmogoyf, although cast/vialed too early it's sometimes food itself for tarmogoyf (as "creature" is a type that we don't see very often in grave with mom protection). That's why, I think, 2 is chosen as the correct number. Threshold mechanics are still popular in the format, so Jotun is good. When facing a red.deck, it becomes the best beater, as opponent either chain burn spell at our head to try to finish us off (thus giving jotun a chance to survive) or waste double burn on jotun (which means 1-2 time walks for us) or wait for jotun to die and then burn (which means 1-2 time walks for us).
One of the problem I saw for the deck is deed (but I maybe overextend over the licit)/EE and a first turns stifle on a fetch, which sets us behind. Also, against fish decks running spellstutter sprite, which counters the whole deck... And qasali pridemage is a bit annoying. As for the rest, though I'm still making many many play errors (that's what playtesting is made for) and I still don't think to be prepared enough to pilot the deck at its best, I find the deck consistent. (@Forbiddian: I was able to sustain the race of progenitus @23 life with avenger+jitte, you were true! Now that I saw with my eyes I believe :P)Finding threats does not seem to be this deck's problem. I would think the opponent implementing his strategy would be the problem, which is why there is Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce and mana denial.
I maybe playing the deck wrong thats why i feel that it needs another finisher besides serra avenger + jitte.
But the problems i encountered is that against decks that runs more basic lands or plays around the wasteland lock, the landy strategy is somewhat out of the picture and the deck must go on the offensive thats is where the problem lies for me. If it does its clock is very slow and could be out raced by bigger resolved creatures bec of its great dependecy on jitte + serra avenger i maybe wrong but if other players finishes the game via fathom seer or wayfarer or mother of runes beatdown i guess im totally wrong on my statements and must watch move vids on how to play this deck or change the way how i use it.
Basically for me the deck is more like a counter puncher rather than the one who makes the offensive. Against decks with fat threats it struggles if there is no jitte in play. A resloved jitte on the opposing side also gives me problems.
As for over extending well, thats exactly what im saying, because its slow clock you need to drop atleast 2 serra avengers or 1 serra avenger + jitte or more to out race fatter beaters like goys or other 4/4 creatures.
But against 3 colored decks or more the deck really shines. As for the grunts yes they are your recursion effect but you can't sustain him after 3-4 turns you'll find it hard to feed.
Thanks for the feedback!
I got a few games in last night and I pretty much came to a similar conclusion, as I only ended up mulliganing one-land hands when it was Wasteland or if I had no Weathered Wayfarer, Aether Vial, Brainstorm, etc. Definitely going to practice more, I love how the deck plays so far, though!
XD.
You don't need to win the game immediately to win the game. I guess the fact that the "clock feels awful" wasn't much of a problem for you. :-P. That experience is pretty normal, you try to lock the board until your cards give you the ability to play aggro (and you cash in for life here and there), but there are very few decks that can wrest control from you once you've locked the board and then win the footrace.This deck does a good job of locking the ground up with Mom, but the clock feels awful if you don't have an Avenger or Jitte kinda like erbs mentioned. Grunt doesn't last nearly long enough. Are there any other good beat options?
Everyone learning the deck has to understand this: It doesn't matter WHEN you win, it matters IF you win. If you're playing it like Fish ("ZOMG, I NEED TO WIN NAO OR ELSE I LOSE CAUSE MY DECK SUCKS TOPDECKING") you're doing it wrong. You can easily guide in a 1/1 with a Jitte or a single Serra Avenger over five or six turns, there's no need to cast a 3/3 just to speed the clock by one turn if that gives your opponent additional outs, and you can be confident, especially late game with all the land filtration and low land count, that you'll topdeck as well as your opponent and that the board state won't change much.
So I went to a tournament yesterday. I went 2-2 drop. It was pretty embarrassing, because I made a hella ton of mistakes. I also played against a friend of mine with conventional Zoo, and I won that game even though I made some pretty embarrassing mistakes. The deck pulled through for me though, which is where it counts.
Round 1 vs. Goblin Sligh
I don't remember much of this game, mainly because Umezawa's Jitte is amazing. Easy 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Steppe Lynx Zoo
Game 1 was brutal. He dropped a couple Steppe Lynx, and my heart just sank as I had two Wastelands in hand. He could care less of my double Wasteland play as he dropped a couple Mancers and took down Game 1.
Game 2 was also brutal. He continued swinging at me with Lynx and I felt like I was going to win midgame as I have every card I need in hand. He dropped Pillar and I had no answers, and he took this game down easily.
Round 3 vs. Natural Order Bant Aggro
This game was one of my better games. A wise chess player friend of mine once said, "do what the grandmasters do." I did just that, thanks to Forbiddian putting up his vid of playing against Bant Aggro up on youtube.
Game 1 was me just ramping up Vials and Jittes. I also "Vialed" out a Jitte, which is an awesome play. I took that game down, as my opponent's Goyfs were puny and died to Jitte. His only big creatures were Rhox War Monks.
Game 2 was awful. He played the bane of my existence: Trygon Predator, which has flying and it destroys artifacts. I lost the first counter war to the first Predator, and he proceeded to drop another Predator. I tried to race him with double Grunts, but that plan failed.
Game 3 was a game made in heaven. He mulled and dropped a Noble Hierarch against me. I wasted his only land, and he sat there for two turns unable to do anything. I tried to Swords his Hierarch, but he keeps FoWing them. Eventually, I developed better than he did, and I dropped Jitte and won.
Round 4 vs. UWB CounterTop
This game was tough, because I had to deal with CounterTop, fliers, Vindicate and Swords to Plowshares.
Game 1, my opponent fetches basic lands as I have Wayfarer in play. I decide to just develop my board and not try and disrupt him with Wastelands, simply because I can't. Of course, he's playing CounterTop and has like 5 Basic lands in play, which allowed him to comfortably operate against me. He drops Vampire Nighthawks, Tombstalkers and Cliques and left me dead. I could not interpose against him, and I lose hardcore. He also Vindicates my Jitte.
Game 2, my opponent did the same as the above, but stole an Avenger as well with Sower. Shit.
Analysis: I felt that the card I wanted all the time was Jitte. Whenever I topdecked the open slot, I always wish that card was a SFM, mainly because it could have swung the game in my favor or Qasali Pridemage was on the board. If the first one leaves, the second one almost always usually sticks. Another thing that I could have done is run Spell Snare over Spell Pierce, mainly because Pridemage and CB were everywhere. Fliers are a huge problem too, so if there are any ideas as to dealing with fliers, that would be awesome.
I'm also juggling the idea of using Path to Exile in the board, because it's very good against Ichorid and Zoo. Against Zoo, I will be boarding Wayfarers out anyway, so Path to Exile will take out the trouble cards, like Mancers and Pridemages. Perimeter Captain is good, but doesn't keep trouble cards like Mancers and Pridemages from taking control of the game from you. Kird Apes and Nacatls are a little trivial as to why Wayfarer might be good, as all my creatures can easily block/interpose with them anyway.
Last edited by Citrus-God; 02-28-2010 at 11:09 PM.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Tinefol: Looks like you didn't win Madrid :-(. Let me know how you did!
Aaron Wayne is 6-1 playing on the bubble in the SCGs 10k.
Ooh, some guy (Jonathan Suarez) is rocking UW Tempo right now in the live cast against Aggro Loam, should be a pretty easy win. He's 6-0-1 as well on the bubble.
EDIT: Ooops. He had BFT in the main deck game 1, so that's a game loss, so it's like a coinflip from here out.
EDIT2: Mulligan to five, bummer. Nice try going all-in on Mother of Runes + Jitte, but the other guy had the Maelstrom Pulse.
Aaron gave me a fucking heart attack, but he made the top 16, yay. After a pretty messy game 1, he made the right plays in the other games (including wastelanding his own Tundra on turn 4 to a Price of Progress and giving a Fathom Seer protection from Red to get lethal the turn after).
@Citrus-God
I always have the same feeling in playing this deck. Like i've posted before, the deck is very reliant on jitte. As for trygon predators yes creatures with evasions are a pain if you don't draw any removals or serra avengers, thats why i suggested to add 2 kor skyfisher in the spot of the 1 knight of the white orchid and 1 mother or wayfarer.
@Forbiddian
I don't know how you do it, but how do you control the board when you opponents just plays around the wasteland lock? And resolves bigger dudes like troll acestic, etc. yes granted that you could stall them via mother of runes but eventually more bigger creatures will drop and with no jitte or a destroyed jitte the long game of this deck suffers greatly and winning without is it very very hard.
Vial is insanely good man. You underestimate its ability to win combat races. Vialing in a first strike creature or a Grunt in response to an attack can make the difference in the long run. Goyf is a 'bigger dude' but Grunt makes him small. The deck has lots of tricks to make its seemingly small creatures big. Jitte is one of them, and SFM fetches Jitte which makes the 'relying on Jitte' a pretty consistent game plan actually if you insist on that point. I actually dont like the singleton Knight. If I played the deck, I would probably fit something in depending on the meta like Ethersworn Cannonist. It would probably be a horrible topdeck, but its great against quite a few decks so a heavy burn/combo/aggro meta it would be pretty good. DnT is a great deck and plays most of the same creatures with great success.@Citrus-God
I always have the same feeling in playing this deck. Like i've posted before, the deck is very reliant on jitte. As for trygon predators yes creatures with evasions are a pain if you don't draw any removals or serra avengers, thats why i suggested to add 2 kor skyfisher in the spot of the 1 knight of the white orchid and 1 mother or wayfarer.
@Forbiddian
I don't know how you do it, but how do you control the board when you opponents just plays around the wasteland lock? And resolves bigger dudes like troll acestic, etc. yes granted that you could stall them via mother of runes but eventually more bigger creatures will drop and with no jitte or a destroyed jitte the long game of this deck suffers greatly and winning without is it very very hard.
@ the 2nd part....people play troll acestic? Really? Maybe in the days of Tooth and Nail in standard. The only deck I can think of that has even considered Troll Acestic is Berserk Stompy and as far as I can remember it was dropped. Name some creatures the deck can't deal with? Most beaters these days are Goyfs. Everything thing else is relatively small like the 2/3's and 3/3's of Zoo (and Zoo plays lots of non-basics), or the 7/7's of reanimator (which get countered). Which deck specifically can't UW Tempo get board control against? Thats the question you should be asking.
Rock.
Had some pretty bad matches against BWG Deadguy Ale, but probably so uncommon that it doesn't need to be worried about.
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