IMOOriginally Posted by Olesch
1) Leyline of the Void
2) Extirpate
3) Trap
4) something else
I use Leyline of the Void and I'm happy with it. The problem is people are aware of it and sometimes (mostly when I draw badly) I want something else. I will try to fit in 1-2 Extirpate to asure my gy&combo hate package.
so i think i may have posted in the wrong thread previously. maybe this belongs here? help would be appreciated...
so eva green doesn't use bob. vesper green does use bob, but doesn't use sinkhole , and deadguy ale does use bob and sinkhole.
did i get that right?
i've been testing a new deck to pretty good results and i'd like to hear everyone's input. i guess you could say it's a cross of doran sui + deadguy. i've been having pretty good percentages across the field really. i can take negitive feedback, but please before anyone bashes it, please sleeve it up or test on workstation. anyway, here's the list with explanations choices and amounts to follow.
[deck]3 bobs
3 vampire nighthawks
4 goyfs
3 doran
1 terravore
4 dark rits
2 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sink holes
3 vinidcate
3 swords
2 shadow of doubt
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 swamp
1 murmuring bosk
4 bayou
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
sb (not firm on this)
1 choke
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
2 ravenous trap
2 gaddox teeg
3 pernicious deeds
1 shadow of doubt[/deck]
61 cards i've been a fan of for a while, especialy with a mana base like this. you can chnage if you'd like, but don't even bother trying to change my mind on this one, at least not in this deck.
3 bobs is the right number because you're busy disrupting early. nothing costs more than 3cmc, so i've not been afraid to play out 2 or even all 3. they really give you the gas you need after you're done nuking there hand and lands (though i still don't like him in a more straight forward eva green suicide deck, because i really like snuff out and tombstalker better than doran/vindicate/swords here)
3 vampire nighthawks have been amazing for me. helps with bobs pain, get bigger with doran, versitile removal similar to vindicate, though i may drop down to 2, as i'd rather draw something else than a second or third one of these.
3 swords- best removal. with nighthawks, vinidcates and discard i didn't feel the full set was needed. low cmc helps with bob, as well as being able to hit your own creature in a pinch.
3 dorans due to legendary and wanting to run out threats, in addition to color requirents. this 5/5 goes toe to toe with pretty much everything. this bomb makes it ok to drop tombstalker for bobs sake.
1 terravore due to color requirement, but it's a bomb with all the LD, and with bob you'll draw it more often than not. it's pretty easy to play him as a 12/12, and trample is just cake.
2 dures ensures a good durn one play, especialy with dark rit.. clears away removal, and i face a lot of control. maybe want to add a third?
3 vindicates- color reqirment and you'll never want to play it early anyway. you always wait until you've disrupted and figure out your opponents game plan.
2 shadow of doubt- this one will probably be the hardest one to sell, but i swear it's pimp juice. not only is it LD, but it replaces itself, and most importantly it's great vs natural order, gifts, ect. i even have a third one in the board. but 2 sylivan librarys might work here.. there really are a lot of things you could put in these slots. however i urge you to try it before you knock it.
single choke because you're not gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed when running this much LD.
extirpate and trap vs ichorid. but if you know someone's not playing basics, extirpate a color source can be hard too.
i know deeds is slow, but it's great vs enchantress. helps vs ichorid tokens. pretty good with zoo and elves. and mops the floor with afinity (yes, i actulay have to play these match ups).
2 gaddox teeg is the only good white card i could think of for the board. good vs sweepers, force, natual order, tendrils, ad nauseum, ect ect.
are there any other good white board options i may not have thought of?
so, what does everyone think?
Is it possible for Abyssal Persecutor to be good in a BWG build?
Or maybe even Death's Shadow?
Thoughts?
I'm thinking something like this:
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Death's Shadow
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Path to Exile/Sword ??
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Could this be good?
popeye79: Most dead guy lists I've seen run 22 lands, so I'd probably up the number by one there. Any reason to run Murmuring Bosk? You really do not want a tapped-land in a deck so focused on early game/tempo. I'd swap it for something else.
Changes:
+1 Swords
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Dark Confidant
-2 Duress
-2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Swords is minimum IMO. I kind of like GV because its an extra source of life-gain, helping you support 1 Bob longer (or even two); some people don't like it though, fair enough. I'd keep Duress before I kept SoD. A lot of Blue decks debate whether its worth their while to run Stifle. This card is narrower and costs double-black. I know, different deck and purpose, but honestly it doesn't see play for a reason. You want to be casting Hymn and Sink Hole and Bob, not leaving 2 mana open hoping they crack a fetch land.
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
Lately I've been thinking that Deadguy Ale needs to concede the fact that Eva Green is strictly better at Tempo and the Rock is strictly better at control. Thus for Deadguy Ale to be successful it needs to focus on Ramping, by which I mean building a mana-curve that that maximizes each turn at the cost of having random explosive first turns. Under this idea, I think the first thing to cut is Dark Ritual and then as a consequence of this Tombstalker has to go (if you can find a way to reliably get him on the board w/o ritual then I'm all ears). This opens up roughly 7 spots in the deck for easing out the mana curve with more 1 cc drops. I've been leaning toward 6 targetted discard (3 TS + 3 Duress) and 3 Mother of Runes, as all nine of these function to protect the real work horse of the deck, Dark Confidant. Resolving Bob on turn 2 and keeping him alive is almost always the critical element that determines whether or not I win.
Additional, without Tombstalker in the deck SDT can be removed (unless you really like it) to make room for additional kill-cons and control elements.
Anyways thats the rational behind the choices I've made to my deck, but since I haven't been able to do any live-testing with it, I'm hoping to get some constructive criticism about where you think this direct will lead.
List:
4 scrubland
4 marsh flats
2 caves of koilos
3 wasteland
7 swamp
1 plains
3 mother of runes
4 dark confidant
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 vampire nighthawk
2 elspeth, knight-errant
2 umezawa’s jitte
3 duress
3 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
SB:
4 leyline of the void
4 ethersworn cannonist
4 pro-red white weenie from WW (?)
3 engineered plague
@ Mono
Deadguy isn't supposed to win quickly with Tombstalker. It's there to win you the game after you gain control so it's not very hard to play without Dark Ritual because you should be playing Duress/Thoughtseize, Hymns, and Sinkholes early game to gain tempo which puts a lot of cards in the GY. With respect to your list, I would run all 4 Wastelands. and I would rather have extra fetchlands over the Caves but I run TS and Tops. I think I would rather run Tainted Fields to produce both mana over Caves.
@ Mono
Deadguy isn't supposed to win quickly with Tombstalker. It's there to win you the game after you gain control so it's not very hard to play without Dark Ritual because you should be playing Duress/Thoughtseize, Hymns, and Sinkholes early game to gain tempo which puts a lot of cards in the GY. With respect to your list, I would run all 4 Wastelands. and I would rather have extra fetchlands over the Caves but I run TS and Tops. I think I would rather run Tainted Fields to produce both mana over Caves.
This thread ain't gonna die on my watch.
Taking a page from the UW Tempo thread, what do we think of Stoneforge Mystic in Deadguy Ale. She fits the curve, is instant card advantage, helps make weak critters (Bob and Gatekeeper) into proper threats, and most importantly is both ''Cool and New''.
Looking at my previous deck-list I'm thinking:
-4 Vampire Nighthawk
-1 Jitte
+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 other equipment (Sword of blah and blah, Bonesplitter, Lightning Greaves, ect.)
+1 Wasteland
Thoughts...
Based on your previous list, I think that the Nighthawks are your strongest creature and the Gatekeepers are the weakest as far as what they will do for you so I would cut Gatekeepers and keep Nighthawks. I would cut 1 Swamp and add the Wasteland anyway. I would remove a Jitte but also maybe a Duress to add in a SoFI and SoLS to have more of a toolbox type list since you have a search in the Mystic.
Hey I absolutely love this deck type from testing it out with proxies. Anyways I built a budget list out of what I own or could easily borrow from a teammate. Here it is...
[DECK]
Land
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Godless Shrine
1x Temple Garden
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
Utility Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Quasali Pridemage
Beaters
3x Doran the Siege Tower
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Joten Grunt
Disruption
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Duress
Removal
3x Path to Exile
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Pernicious Deed
Card Advantage / Manipulation
2x Skeletal Scrying
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
3x Hypnotic Spector
2x Duress
10x TBA
[/DECK]
I hate how random the decklist looks on paper with all of those 2 of's but it plays well despite all of the low numbers. The deck runs more than enough removal to handle any aggro deck, just watch your life total carefully against decks with reach, looking at you zoo. With eight pieces of hand disruption main board and more in the side combo, mostly storm, should be winnable preboard and favorable post board. It should have a good game against control by combining the disruption and the beats.
Last edited by Elvtyrr; 02-16-2010 at 09:04 PM.
@Elvtyrr:
I've play tested Tidehollow Sculler alot, and found that most decks have no problem killing him off and getting their card back. So I'd strongly suggest trading him in for some duress/thoughtseizes if you want more discard, or kitchen-finks if you want some utility.
O-Ring and Pernicious Deed don't look like they are going to play together too nicely. Surely Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, mortify, putrify, or more deeds are in your price range.
Skeletal Scrying and Jotun Grunts also seem a bit contradictory. Granted there is only 2 of each, but with 4 Bobs do you really need Skeletal Scrying at all?
To add to these queries, I'd first like to support the point Mono_Thematic made about Sculler; I haven't playtested him much, but my initial impressions after playing games with him seems to concur with Mono's views... Furthermore, in this format, a 2/2 isn't going to do much anyway - which leads to:
Why no Jitte? He's like Vampire Nighthawk, except that he costs abit more, dies far less easily... and can win you the game fast. Downside of course is that it does nothing on its own, but that's a fair tradeoff probably for a game-swinging equipment. Also, he makes Tidehollow Sculler better than Castigate, for Sculler now becomes far more dangerous to block or attack into...
Also, on Skeletal Scrying: I haven't really tested this card before so I'm not really sure (I've tried it once or twice but ended up dismissing it), but I'd like to ask if you often have enough life to play Scrying with, by the time you can cast it for a decent amount to make it better than Night's Whisper? (often by then you're at low health, and casting the Scrying would be suicidal, which led me to toss the card from the list) How often has it been effective?
@ Mono_Thematic: Yeah, the Tidehollow sculler used to be Descendant of kyimaro but the three slot was really crowded so I switched him out for now but yeah I can see what you mean about him being fragile... I will switch the O rings out for Vindicates, because of the anti-synergy with Deed.
@ Hummingbird TG: Well, until after the Columbus GP I will probably not have any jittes. I would run vampire nighthawk even if I had the jittes.
Regarding the Skeletal Scrying: Between the fetches and the spell count having a big graveyard is no problem, though it does occasionally clash with Joten grunt. This is not a card that I would intend to cast before turn four in almost any situation, I see it as a great late game draw spell. Most lists that I have seen on deckcheck.net run 4 bobs, 2 sylvan libraries and 2 skeletal scryings. I prefer top to the libraries because of the synergy with bob and lack of even more life loss.
Doran, Nighthawk and Grunt seem good..... But I'm thinking there is a better creature you could be running.... Oh, that's it, Tarmogoyf! Why not? Did I miss something in the thread that says Tarmogoyf is Bad?
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
Yeah the word "budget", in my post not the thread in general. I was honestly going to put out for Goyf this year but for some reason his price jumped from ~45 USD, last years price on troll and toad, to ~100 USD. I'm not paying $100 a piece for a creature that doesn't have the text "You win the game" in his text box, no matter how good or broken he is. Maybe when the extended season is over his price will fall but when push comes to shove he is nothing but an insanely expensive vanilla beat stick. Yeah he is hella awesome but I just can't justify buying him right now.
B/W TEMPO
4 Mother Of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Spectral Lynx
2 Sliver Knight
2 Ronom Unicorn
2 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
SB
4 Extirpate
1 Jötun Grunt
2 Vindicate
2 Absolute Law
2 True Believer
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
For a straight B/W build I'm currently testing this list:
20x Landbase
4x Dark Confidant
2x Joten Grunt
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Descendant of Kiyomaro
2x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Skeletal Scrying
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
You might want to re-read the card then.
The price of goyf aside I think that this deck can be successfully ran as a straight B/W without really hampering us.
Anyways I am running perish in my sideboard and am wondering if you think it is worth it to side in against a zoo player.
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