[Deck] Dredge

[junkdiver]

Cool, thanks NQN for the explanation that makes sense. Only part I didn't understand is what is "MD"? Sorry I am not 100% on the magic abbreviations yet :X

The stax matchup really does suck I have found in my limited experience with it. The only game I won was with mega Ichorids recurring dancing around the tabernacle magus.

It brings me to a question though, has anyone ever tried Nether Shadow in the deck? I see some of the vintage lists use him, and he dances around tabernacle effects with Ichorid. Also he is black unlike Nacro so he can be eaten by Ichorid, and often sees play more than once. Anyways just maybe as a Narco number 5 or 6 or something.

Is there any way to tweak the deck to be better against stax? I feel like it's game over as soon as they land ghostly prison or humility. Not to mention their turn 1 drops are pretty strong against us. Is the best idea against them to just win faster?

[Parcher]

Troll beats Humility, and Troll+LED beats Prison. Prison is their only really relevant card, (for Geddon Stax, which is seems you are describing) so always aim for it with discard first.

[junkdiver]

That is definitely some good information about the troll against humility... I had no idea it worked that way... In general Humility interactions just confuse me.

Regarding Leyline one more time, would you guys bring it in against Thresh? My friend who plays Canadian says that he has won very few games where the opponent starts with a Leyline in place. Is it worth the spots in that matchup you think?

[Parcher]

To be blunt, any meta where Ichorid would board Leyline, is likely awful for Thrash. However, since they only can bring in Crypt as hate, I'd only bring Grudge. Yes, they can't win without a graveyard in most cases, but it's not worth the slot for such a favorable match.

[juzamjedi]

Did you all take a look at the result of the latest SCG $5K? I was quite surprised to see that Dredge is losing hard to Zoo. The results against Merfolk weren't very impressive either (i.e. the 2 most popular decks right now).

I realize this report isn't perfect since we don't know how many of the Dredge lists are LED Ichorid. That said: against a field full of Zoo and Merfolk what changes would you make? Should Tireless Tribe go maindeck now and put Unmask in the board? DR targets = Iona + FKZ?

[Parcher]

No.

I was there. The Ichorid players were both awful, and using LED-less. Merfolk is a joke, and Zoo isn't much more difficult.

[CephalidBreakfast]

What is the list you played at the GP, NQN? I went back a few pages and couldn't find it. Is this the same list you would continue to play? I'm planning on playing Ichorid at the SCG 5k this weekend, and don't have any experience with the LED version, but I thought I'd at least try my hand at goldfishing it a bit before dismissing it. Thanks.

[Wargoos]

According to his posts his list is exactly like parchers with the only difference being that he cut the wispmare in the sideboard for an ancient grudge.

Also what do you guys think awaits ichorid in the near future?
I am asking because people start to (over-)hype Reanimator which will result in more gy hate in peoples sideboards.
Is it still smart to play Ichorid or is it more a stubborn thing playing it?

I don't think that Ichorid will be affected all too much but I rather ask someone who really knows how to play this deck.

[Adan]

Also what do you guys think awaits ichorid in the near future?
I am asking because people start to (over-)hype Reanimator which will result in more gy hate in peoples sideboards.

Don't forget Loam-based decks. Yes. This is also what Parcher was worrying about in the last time, but somehow here in Germany, I don't feel any difference (at least I have not observed that the Meta has changed, there's still a lot of Zoo and a lot of Gayfolk).

It's pretty reversed here: Not Ichorid suffers splash damage from Reanimator-Hate, Reanimator suffers splash damage from Dredge-Hate!
And if you are a advanced Dredge-player, you won't have trouble to circumvent GY hate and win through multiple Crypt-effects. I only lost 2 games against GY hate in a total of 4 whole tournaments (one being Relic cycles into Relic and the other one was T0 double-Leyline which I'd also have won actually if he didn't StoP'd EVERY Ichorid I had and also had 3 Deeds total).

Reanimator - despite being a "normal" deck - has got a harder time to deal with stuff like Crypt and Relic. Good, they have Krosan Grips in their SB, but Reanimate costs them a huge amount of life and a Nacatl or soemthing similar can also be a pain in the ass (it's like Ad Nauseam, the less life you have, the more Reanimate sucks).

Is it still smart to play Ichorid or is it more a stubborn thing playing it?

It's a good deck per se which needs some practice, but if your metagame is full of GY hate, it's difficult. You should also keep an eye out for TempoThresh-players and how good they are. I've beaten Jaynel to oblivion with TempoThresh yesterday a few times, it can be a challenge.

I don't think that Ichorid will be affected all too much but I rather ask someone who really knows how to play this deck.

Well, no matter what hate you are facing, permadiscard is often the way to win against non-Jailer-hate (and no one plays such a narrow card as Jailer). Ancient Grudge is also excellent.

But what I am more afraid of are actually tempodecks like Canadian Thresh (or my black Tempo Thresh), Dreadstill and Merfolk with Stifle-Waste and maindeck Relics. Especially Dreadstill can set you onto a ridiculous clock. But if you play with LED, you can still blow them away pretty fast.

But against TempoThresh and Gayfolk, Tireless Tribe shines!

[NQN]

Yes, I played Parcher 75 with 1 more grudge.

@EaD: As long as people keep on playing Relic/Crypt and not Leyline(or a combination or hatecards) everything is fine. So far I´ve yet to loose against Artifacthate (not kidding) while Leyline is giving me headache whenever I see it. For me, I´ve played Ichorid too much in my area (top8ed every tournament because people weren´t prepared) and will change to ANT for some time.
But it´s still a very, VERY underrated and good deckchoice imho.

[Ozymandias]

I'd been doing fairly well in my meta with Ichorid, top 8ing four tournaments in a row at the store and t16ing the local SCG, but at the last tourney a month and a half ago, I got trounced, running into leylines in 2 matches, Dragon Stompy (albeit with bad mulligans on my part), GBW rock with 3 Extirpate+4 crypt, and Tempo Thresh, which I have personally found to be a tough matchup. I think that that is a pretty unfavorable field for Ichorid, and I am considering laying low with the deck and playing something else at the next tourney, especially now that Reanimator won Madrid. Is that meta actually unfavorbale, or do I just have the fear?

[stacker]

My meta is 50% rock, I'm not joking. I've topped 4 for the past 3 weeks, but lately everyone's putting in ravenous traps when they see me enter the store. I've still done ok and no one has leylines, but I'm thinking of switching to ANT too in the meantime and lying low.

[Parcher]

I literally have not run the deck in a tournament for over six months. First, it was due to it becoming more and more popular. Now, that it has been hated out by everyone imaginable to the point where it might be safe to play again, ReAnimator pops up to worry again. And people aren't going to switch hate just for that deck. They may eschew Trap, but everything else is still live. I'd probably wait to see what the meta moves towards to deal with the possible spike in ReAnimator showing before jumping back in. At anything large enough that you can't fully predict the meta, anyways.

[Meister_Kai]

Ok gents, some last minute questions about this deck before I (and I assume many others now, due to that damn Starcity article that went up an hour or so ago) play this deck at Indianapolis:

1. When returning Iona, what colors do you name against what decks? I assume the obvious "removal" colors but what do you do when playing against Zoo, who as we've seen in Madrid, can kill Archangel three fucking times with burn. What color do you name against Bant? Tendrils? etc.

2. How does the new SB go over with the old SB plans on page 17? I'm not asking to be spoon fed here (ok, maybe just a little) and most of it can be figured out easily, but what do you change now that you have stuff like Leyline and no Firestorm to board in/out?

3. How often does anyone actually DR Sadistic nowadays? When do you DR him and against whom? Is a turn 1 mind twist always better than turn 1 Iona (I guess yes?)

4. So the plan against Leyline is mull into bounce or Wispmare, but I assume if you are playing against the rouge thresh deck with SB'd Leylines you probably just roll over and die. How loose of a hand can you afford to keep just to be able to play the bounce?

5. I'm not sure about taking out Ancestor's Chosen. I think according to Parcher's SB that I will -1 Leyline +1 Chosen. I think he is just too much of a beating against both ANT and Zoo.

Lastly, I would just like to thank you Parcher, and others such as NQN and Adan for all the help you guys have given players like myself who wish to do well with this deck yet don't get many opportunities to do so. I will be registering this deck as "Parcher Dredge" on Sunday, wish me luck!

[Adan]

1. When returning Iona, what colors do you name against what decks? I assume the obvious "removal" colors but what do you do when playing against Zoo, who as we've seen in Madrid, can kill Archangel three fucking times with burn. What color do you name against Bant? Tendrils? etc.

Monocolored Decks: OBV!

Bant: I'd say white, it locsk down removal, War Monks, Rafiq in some cases and they if they play Survival, they can't legend-rule your Iona with Retainers into Iona. Then you just beat them down and spawn tokens with Ichorids. But needless to say that you usually barbecue bluebased decks per definition.

Tendrils: Black. They may have bounce, but they need to bounce her first before they can go off. And if you don't name black, they can still topdeck you out of nowhere. If you see Red, you should Therapy for Burning Wishes. But Iona on black also restrict Burning Wish's usefullness, so I'd always go for black.

2. How does the new SB go over with the old SB plans on page 17? I'm not asking to be spoon fed here (ok, maybe just a little) and most of it can be figured out easily, but what do you change now that you have stuff like Leyline and no Firestorm to board in/out?

You have more Tireless Tribe which are nice against Aggrodecks. The sideboard is still a kind of transformational: You switch to noLED Dredge postboard to dodge hate better, but reserve the ability to be fast via LED in matchups where that matters (Lands, Combo, Reanimator etc.).
Firestorm is not that necessary anymore as a lot of decks will have a hard time to kill a Tireless Tribe whose toughness goes infinite with just 2 cards. Zoo needs Path (some still don't play it), Merfolk needs Jitte (which you can and should Grudge if necessary) and Red Tempo Thresh can't actually do anything except EE'ing it maybe.

3. How often does anyone actually DR Sadistic nowadays? When do you DR him and against whom? Is a turn 1 mind twist always better than turn 1 Iona (I guess yes?)

If you can go off 1st Turn I always want Sadistic Hypnotist, but in the mid- and lategame, Iona is better. This split actually covers all moments.

4. So the plan against Leyline is mull into bounce or Wispmare, but I assume if you are playing against the rouge thresh deck with SB'd Leylines you probably just roll over and die. How loose of a hand can you afford to keep just to be able to play the bounce?

Uhm, you might die then, yes, but if they reveal you Leyline g2, you can still modify your deck to combat Leyline. But I would not be too worried about Treshdecks playing Leyline since mulligan into Leyline is strictly worse than playing Relics into which you can chain with your cantrips.

Cards you should be worried about when playing against Thresh are actually just Crypt, Relic and Ravenous Trap (which is still rather exotic and rarely seen).
But I think no one would dedicate more than 4 slots for the Ichorid matchup, so if you play against Line, the optimal hand would be Land, Discarder, Dredger, Leyline-Hate and 3 bla. Ooor if they mulligan down to 5 or something, you can also handle Leyline and DDD.
IMHO Leyline isn't as tragic as Jan is whining about :>. I usually lose to these lucksacks which always open 2 of them which is pretty stupid, but in Legacy you can do beatdown by hardcasting your little critters. It's more dramatic in Vintage.

5. I'm not sure about taking out Ancestor's Chosen. I think according to Parcher's SB that I will -1 Leyline +1 Chosen. I think he is just too much of a beating against both ANT and Zoo.

Iona basically has the same purpose against ANT and Zoo as Chosen, except that she's more obese than CHosen. Chosen is actually supposed to obsolete the opponent's resources by bringing your life total to a level where their resources are not enough. Iona cuts their resources directly, so the result is the same, except that Iona kills faster. And Tireless Tribes are still big against Aggro.

But Leyline is 0 or 4. Everything else irrational.

Lastly, I would just like to thank you Parcher, and others such as NQN and Adan for all the help you guys have given players like myself who wish to do well with this deck yet don't get many opportunities to do so. I will be registering this deck as "Parcher Dredge" on Sunday, wish me luck!

Credits actually go to Parcher, at least my knowledge about the deck is based on his contributions to the deck.

[Meister_Kai]

Credits actually go to Parcher, at least my knowledge about the deck is based on his contributions to the deck.

Every time you post something like this addressing all my questions it is a great help! Don't kid yourself, even though Parcher created its decklist, many people are involved with furthering the understanding of this deck!

Anyhow, thanks for answering all my questions! However, since I am a insatiable bastard, I have even more:

1. Hand goes like this: Gemstone, dredger, pimp, cabal therapy, 3 other cards. It's game one and I'm in the dark. If you honestly don't know what your opponent is playing, do you always blind therapy on force on the play? If you know you are playing against non blue game one, I'd assume you'd always play pimp first?

2. The mirror match. What's the SB plan? I can think of the obvious -4 LED, -1 DA, but do you bring in 9 cards for this matchup? Is Unmask the right card to SB out? If you know you are playing against the mirror game one on the play, and you have a choice of playing either pimp or therapy, which do you most often play? Do you hope to blind call a breakthrough if or when you therapy? I assume Sadistic is bad here, so the plan is to DR Iona if you have Leyline in play and call blue, but if you don't name black?

3. It appears to me that Dragon Stompy comes down to:

a. Winning the die roll
b. Resolving a discard outlet before they CoV (winning die roll)
c. DR Iona really quickly and before they explode with creatures (probably winning the die roll)

As DS loses to Reanimator without a resolved Arc Slogger for Archon, coupled with the fact that the deck frequently just craps out on people, I will assume that while the deck is a problem, its likely not one to be encountered. However, DS might be a good choice for Indianapolis.

Again, thanks for answering any or all of my questions.

[Ozymandias]

Do not forget that if they should turn 1 Moon you, and you are on the draw, then you can just go up to 8 cards and discard your dredger. Depending on how well you dredge, and if they drop a Trinisphere or not, you can actually expect to smack a Dread Return by turn 5 or so, and block almost everything with Narcomoeba/Zombies.

Your other 3 cards in that scenario are pretty important, but I would say that if you blind therapy for force, you risk giving your opponent not only access to basically a whole turn free of dredging, but also the ability to find an answer for your t2 Imp. I think you probably run the Imp out there, because the chances that a random opponent has force are roughly equal to 40% (there are mulligans into hands with force and unplayable 7-carders with force, etc to consider besides raw probability) times the percentage of FoW decks in the metagame.

In the mirror I would run Imp out there on the principle that if they have land, LED, breakthrough or some other hand that makes Breakthrough nuts on t1, you are going to lose anyway to time walking yourself if you therapy.If you miss then you've also time walked yourself I would board in Leylines if you have them, and Leyline removal, and then I would aggressively mulligan to Leyline. Unmask leaves if your're on the draw; on the play, you probably shave a thug, an Imp, and one other thing.

[Parcher]

1. Hand goes like this: Gemstone, dredger, pimp, cabal therapy, 3 other cards. It's game one and I'm in the dark. If you honestly don't know what your opponent is playing, do you always blind therapy on force on the play? If you know you are playing against non blue game one, I'd assume you'd always play pimp first?.

The three other cards are too important to discount. But, yes, you would lead with PImp if you know it's neither Combo, nor Control that you are playing against. You can always use Therapy as an outlet if they Force PImp.

2. The mirror match. What's the SB plan? I can think of the obvious -4 LED, -1 DA, but do you bring in 9 cards for this matchup? Is Unmask the right card to SB out? If you know you are playing against the mirror game one on the play, and you have a choice of playing either pimp or therapy, which do you most often play? Do you hope to blind call a breakthrough if or when you therapy? I assume Sadistic is bad here, so the plan is to DR Iona if you have Leyline in play and call blue, but if you don't name black?.

Never side out LED in the Mirror. You do side out Unmask, as well as 1 Ichorid, 1 Therapy, 1 DA, and 1 City for Chains and Leyline. Unless of course, you know they don't run Leyline. With this version, a hand with Dredger+LED+Breakthrough or Coliseum is almost as good as Leyline, so don't mulligan that type looking for one. You do Therapy if it is this same version, and you do name Breakthrough since it (and Coliseum) are the only un-raceable cards. Sadistic is actually very good, since he gives another permanent discard outlet that can be sac'ed to Ichorids, and he can also give you control of who wins the Bridge wars. And you are correct on the Iona calls.

[junkdiver]

How do you guys feel like the matchup is against Belcher? Any tips :\ ?

[juzamjedi]

Against Belcher your combo is racing theirs. With a blind Therapy I always name Charbelcher first because it's possible to race a resolved Empty the Warrens.

I played this deck at SGC Indy and didn't do well. For me FKZ was very good game 1 vs. Tabernacle (which I played twice) in most other matches it could have just been a grave troll. Apparently I am also one of those awful Ichorid players because I couldn't beat Merfolk or Zoo. Thinking back on my games I think my biggest error is I am trying to "combo out fast" with my dredging and exposing too many bridges. One of my merfolk opponents had Relic + Ravenous Trap; the Zoo player only had 1 crypt, but I couldn't reload fast enough and died to his Thoctar + Nacatls.

Could someone walk through a "normal" sequence of plays against these aggro deck since I am obviously misplaying?