[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[Oiolosse]

@dontbiteitholmes -- great discussion on card choices, thank you for the valuable explanations.

[Pienterekaak]

I personally think 4 sterling grove is the minimum. Its a enchantment that i always want to see, especially in a pridemage heavy meta. It protects enchantments, and if nesecary it can tutor for a way out in a bad situation.
I played enchantress for a while, then i quitted magic, but i played with enchantress in madrid too, finished 118th.
This was a suboptimal list (ill post it later) but i do feel this deck has potential.

Between chrome mox and ESG i would choose ESG, mind you i didnt test both of them, but the way i see it, you only want chrome mox in your opening hand.. after that, it becomes a terrible card to draw. And in order to see it in your opening hand, you have to play alot of them, so the chance increases of drawing one later in the game. ESG gives you a explosive start (ok, not a first turn halo.. which is importand, i know), is great against daze and can be cast as a chump blocker when you are in a bad situation.

Also, a interesting idea, how about maindeck Orim's Chant
It helps against combo,
it helps against blue, making sure your replendish resolves
and it helps against aggro when using the kicker.
and chant is already in the name of the deck!

[dontbiteitholmes]

The what now? I'm not playing Mesa OR Sigil. If I was going to play either, however, it would be Mesa, since neither one is really useful except vs. control, and Sigil still requires extra cards invested to start producing threats.

And you know what gets played a lot more than Pithing Needle? Engineered Explosives.

Oh my bad that was someone else's list I saw posted and thought it was your post. I see you list back a page now, it's ummm... interesting. Then again like I said before NOVA is one of those few places where Legacy is well defined so I would only expect a list from there to be very metagamed. Would you feel comfortable taking that list to a large tournament or is that more of a meta deck and if so how would the large tourney list differ? I still can't agree with Mesa over Sigil. I've played Mesa before and was unimpressed with it compared to Sigil, and for the record Explosives hurts Mesa too and when they are using Explosives to blow up tokens its usually either to swing for the win or the last act of a desperate man. At least in my experience that holds true.

Also put me down for Chrome Mox is no good in Enchantress.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

EE isn't CA against Mesa. It is vs. Sigil.

Also, Mesa can generate at instant speed, so your alpha strike situation seems pretty unlikely. It's a good card because against control you can ride it by itself while you fill up your hand. It's still a pretty narrow card. However, that's a role that it fills better than Sigil does.

Either way, 3x Replenish + 1 WoWar is better than 2 Replenish and a second kill condition. And anything over that is just overkill.


And I played my list at the SCG Open and felt very comfortable with it.

[Sevryn]

Sacred Mesa is an effective kill with its own unique requirements. The times when it is the best kill card are rare, however I have found myself with 2 cards in my library and my Words of War extirpated. With my 3+ enchantresses, Sigil would mill me to death because I had no way to skip draws. Mesa got there.

Mesa is also rarely tutored up as a defense mechanism. Like when your enchantresses have been countered/destroyed and you're staring down 2 Tarmogoyfs. Oblivion Ring will halve the clock. Elephant Grass will make them tap lands. Sacred Mesa makes instant-speed chump blockers and might buy you enough time to draw into more answers. Like I said, it is rare, but it does happen (at least, it's happened to me).

And also, don't forget the synergy with Serra's Sanctum. Late game, Mesa is a very quick kill.

Mesa is by no means my favorite kill, but the fact that it also functions as defense at instant speed has enough applications for me to run one copy.

[Pienterekaak]

Personally i do not play mesa anymore. my kill conditions are now 2 sigil and 1 Luminarch Ascension.
In the case i am winning, the win condition doesnt really matter (since i am winning, and i can use Ascension + confinement to keep myself from decking)
But in case of a bad situation i would almost always rather have a sigil or a ascension.
When i am faced against aggro/aggro control, my 4/4 angels from sigil can kill his creatures instead of just blocking them for a turn (i rather have 2 4/4 angels, than produce 2/3 1/1 tokens each turn, since that also denies my from playing any new enchantments)
Also, at low mana i can play my ascension to draw a card with my enchantress effects, i cannot do this with mesa (since i need to maintain mesa)

Furthermore, in experience.. tutoring mesa for defence only occured once (while i still played it, which was long) in alot of games. And i only won a few games on mesa, but that was becouse it was the first kill i saw that game. And i did not want to draw the card when i only had a few mana, since its a dead card in your hand unless you have atleast 6 mana avalible.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

If you're winning, you want something that will turn a draw into a win if it's game three and time is called. Words of War is the only card that does this effectively.

The only reason to play another kill condition is if it doubles in a defensive role. Technically both Sigil and Mesa can do this. However, Sigil only does a particularly good job at this if you have an Enchantress out, because otherwise, you're dealing in a very limited resource (enchantments in hand). I advocate a decklist that should rarely lose once you have untapped with an Enchantress turn 3. Therefore, I don't see any benefit from playing Sigil.

I would only run an extra kill condition/defense card if it served me when I don't have an Enchantress. That would only happen with very bad hands/mulliganing (in which case you should lose anyway, most of the time), or against a deck running disruption. If they're running black disruption, both Sigil and Mesa are too mana hungry to do you much good most of the time vs Wasteland, Sinkhole and Hymn. And in any case, Replenish is better. Against blue disruption, I prefer the card that will function more as a stand alone threat. Mesa requires no investment besides mana, which is a larger resource pool than cards and mana, which is what Sigil requires. If I play Sigil and they use an Engineered Explosives to kill 3 angels, that's 3 cards they took from me. If I topdeck an Enchantress or a Replenish, not having those enchantments to play is going to make it harder to regain any lost board position. But again, Replenish is better than either here.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If you're winning, you want something that will turn a draw into a win if it's game three and time is called. Words of War is the only card that does this effectively.

The only reason to play another kill condition is if it doubles in a defensive role. Technically both Sigil and Mesa can do this. However, Sigil only does a particularly good job at this if you have an Enchantress out, because otherwise, you're dealing in a very limited resource (enchantments in hand). I advocate a decklist that should rarely lose once you have untapped with an Enchantress turn 3. Therefore, I don't see any benefit from playing Sigil.

I would only run an extra kill condition/defense card if it served me when I don't have an Enchantress. That would only happen with very bad hands/mulliganing (in which case you should lose anyway, most of the time), or against a deck running disruption. If they're running black disruption, both Sigil and Mesa are too mana hungry to do you much good most of the time vs Wasteland, Sinkhole and Hymn. And in any case, Replenish is better. Against blue disruption, I prefer the card that will function more as a stand alone threat. Mesa requires no investment besides mana, which is a larger resource pool than cards and mana, which is what Sigil requires. If I play Sigil and they use an Engineered Explosives to kill 3 angels, that's 3 cards they took from me. If I topdeck an Enchantress or a Replenish, not having those enchantments to play is going to make it harder to regain any lost board position. But again, Replenish is better than either here.

That's exactly what I'm saying though, Sigil wins me games when I don't have the draw engine online and that's why I like it so much. Really Guile helps a lot though, I don't think Sigil would work as well for me if I didn't run Guile. Once a Sigil is out I expect atleast one angel a turn and dropping 4/4s onto the board every turn, especially when they are accompanied by enchantments that make winning harder for my opponent, is something that not many decks are prepared for. Countering enchantments with Sigil out doesn't stop Angels. Explosives can be bad times but at the same time if they are using it to kill angel tokens that means they are not using it to kill enchantments. I'm not saying it's the only way to make the deck, but Sigil has shined in my playtesting and I don't feel comfortable personally running Enchantress when one unlucky opening and my only win condition is getting countered/Thoughtsiezed then Crypted into oblivion (yes I know you can play around counters and by the time Words is getting dropped it shouldn't matter, but I like to have plan B ready to roll when things don't go as planned and since Magic has an element of chance that happens from time to time).

My personal play style works well with the deck in it's current configuration because I tend to play it more like a control deck then a combo deck. At the same time if you play it as more of a combo deck that can certainly be just as strong seeing as how most of the combo hate people play is more aimed at Storm or GY combos and the decklist/sideboard can certainly be tweaked to answer pretty much anything in a well defined meta. Yeah it certainly would suck to lose 3 angels if you dropped every enchantment in your hand to get them, but at the same time you have to consider the way I see it is what other card would have been better to draw in the majority of matchups then Sigil? I mean I don't have time every game to wait until I draw into Enchantress to play stuff. I run 3x Guiles and 4x Groves as well as 8 cards that slow/stop attacks (Moat, 3x Grass, 1x Prison, 3x Confinement), Lignify, O. Ring, Runed Halo, Ground Seal cantraps and Blood Moon vs. a deck running EE could hurt so I have to assume if I drop 3 enchantments with Sigil out, aside from getting angel tokens, I'm also advancing my agenda. Then you have to consider if having my tokens get EE is a worst case scenario I could be doing a lot worse, because getting other permanents exploded also sucks. Seriously though Guile definitely has made Sigil work much better for me since most of the time it almost ensures I'll be playing atleast one enchantment a turn for a while.

That's the way I see it atleast, we can throw out hypothetical situations all day about why one card is better then another but results are what counts. I've had very good results with my version in testing so far and obviously you have had success with your decklist, so I'd have to say there is no wrong answer here just two different views on how to make the deck. When things don't go smoothly Sigil can really turn the tables in a serious way and it has the proven potential to win games when I can't make enchantress's stick and that's basically why I play it.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

In every case that you pop your Sterling Grove (except in reponse to it's targeted destruction) early to tutor, you are much better off with Enlightened Tutor. They have the same effect but Tutor saves you G1. When you need to tutor early go with Enlightened Tutor. Sterling Grove shrouds your enchantments and draws cards from enchantress effects but using it for the tutor effect is really suboptimal compared to Enlightened Tutor. The tutor is almost always getting you something you need anyway, the only time that Sterling Grove is better is if the Grove is what you are tutoring *for*.

In other words, Sterling Grove #1, #2, #3, then Enlightened Tutors #1, #2, #3 and #4 before Sterling Grove #4.

I am trying out Titania's Song as a Humility for artifacts. Since it's coming into play as a creature, post- Titania's Song petals trigger Aura Shards, turning into 0 casting cost Disenchants.

[dontbiteitholmes]

In every case that you pop your Sterling Grove (except in reponse to it's targeted destruction) early to tutor, you are much better off with Enlightened Tutor. They have the same effect but Tutor saves you G1. When you need to tutor early go with Enlightened Tutor. Sterling Grove shrouds your enchantments and draws cards from enchantress effects but using it for the tutor effect is really suboptimal compared to Enlightened Tutor. The tutor is almost always getting you something you need anyway, the only time that Sterling Grove is better is if the Grove is what you are tutoring *for*.

In other words, Sterling Grove #1, #2, #3, then Enlightened Tutors #1, #2, #3 and #4 before Sterling Grove #4.

I am trying out Titania's Song as a Humility for artifacts. Since it's coming into play as a creature, post- Titania's Song petals trigger Aura Shards, turning into 0 casting cost Disenchants.

I don't get it. What artifacts are you so worried about that you run Titania's Song? Why are you running Aura Shards too? That sounds really bad, you are basically playing a 3 card combo to disenchant. If artifacts and enchantments are that much of a problem there are at least 4 better cards to deal with them of the top of my head, first of which is Aura of Silence which aside from being an enchantment also Disenchants on command and makes all opponents enchantments and artifacts harder to play. Also really I can't think of any artifact that is that big of a problem that wouldn't die to Titiana's Song alone (EE, Chalice, and 0cc mana producers in combo decks) and the artifacts that aren't really a problem might become one if you turn them into creatures instead of just blowing them up. Still, aside from EE already in play Aura of Silence is the better card by far in any situation I can think of. Am I missing something?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Aura doesn't make EE harder to play, although Justice is still probably better than Titania's Song.

Although I agree that a fourth Grove seems excessive. I've at times ran 3 Grove in the MD and 4 Tutor in the board, but that's the farthest I'd go with tutor effects.

[Pienterekaak]

personally i wouldnt go below 4 grove.. but then agian, i am in a pridemage heavy meta, and you always want a sterling grove there (2 would be even better)

[wcm8]

I tried using Mirri's Guile, but I found that in general I'd rather have a Sylvan library out. Sylvan lets you keep the cards if you really need them, and as has been said before combos well with WoWar. In fact, sometimes in the first game when your opponent doesn't have too much anti-enchantment, you can drop a War early and gradually kill them, instead of having to set up the entire Confinement lock to finish them. Guile seems to only be great when it's in your opening hand, and running 4 to up the chances of that seem like a waste of slots.

I have been having great success with running 3 Lotus Petals/1 ESG instead of wild growth. The growths are okay for the drawing and acceleration, but mid-late game you'd rather be drawing lock cards. Early on, the explosiveness of the Petal/ESG lets you get your engine online fast or protect a hard cast from Daze, whereas with growth you'll typically have to wait a turn. Having Argothian out on the first turn is key against a lot of decks. I feel that Petal is sometimes more useful than ESG because there are times when you want red or white and don't have a Sprawl or Taiga out.

I have also been testing 1 Blood Moon maindeck. Sometimes getting this out early will win you game 1, so I think it's worth the inclusion. Kind of like how Moat can totally wreck certain aggro decks, the Moon can be incredibly problematic for a lot of the format. It can slow the Enchantress player down too, but the deck needs multiple turns to win anyways. Having several "auto-win" cards maindeck for the meta is important towards getting game 1 victory, as games 2 and 3 can be rough for the Enchantress player.

Also, FWIW I run 4 Grove and never mind drawing them. 1 is moderate protection, 2 is complete, and 3/4 can tutor you the game lock. Most decks don't run Rev. Silence or Tranquility type things maindeck, so drawing them consistently is important.

[grahf]

I tried using Mirri's Guile, but I found that in general I'd rather have a Sylvan library out. Sylvan lets you keep the cards if you really need them, and as has been said before combos well with WoWar. In fact, sometimes in the first game when your opponent doesn't have too much anti-enchantment, you can drop a War early and gradually kill them, instead of having to set up the entire Confinement lock to finish them. Guile seems to only be great when it's in your opening hand, and running 4 to up the chances of that seem like a waste of slots.

Sylvan Library vs Mirri's Guile comes up every couple of months in this thread, and I don't think one side is going to convince the other. Guile costs less and still functions under Confinement, that matters to me. Also, and this could be a difference in playstyle, I don't usually drop WoWar until I'm ready to win next turn. The Sylvan+WoWar plan costs 2-3 mana at an inopportune time (your draw step), and as you say yourself, is best when you aren't under heavy pressure, in which case, why do you need it? Just combo out and win. Extra Guiles are not dead just like extra Elephant Grasses are not dead, they read, G: draw cards equal to the number of Enchantresses in play. Whether you're accelerating in the midgame or on your combo turn, having low-cc enchantments that draw tons of cards is just good.

I have been having great success with running 3 Lotus Petals/1 ESG instead of wild growth. The growths are okay for the drawing and acceleration, but mid-late game you'd rather be drawing lock cards. Early on, the explosiveness of the Petal/ESG lets you get your engine online fast or protect a hard cast from Daze, whereas with growth you'll typically have to wait a turn. Having Argothian out on the first turn is key against a lot of decks. I feel that Petal is sometimes more useful than ESG because there are times when you want red or white and don't have a Sprawl or Taiga out.

The idea of splitting ESG/Petal seems decent, I might try 2/2 and see how it goes, but instead of Wild Growth!? Definitely in addition to two Wild Growths for me. Also, what situations do you need red and white more than green? Not in the Daze protection plan. Not when casting an Argothian first turn. Perhaps if you have lots of WW cards in your list like Runed Halo or Moat, then I could see it.

I have also been testing 1 Blood Moon maindeck. Sometimes getting this out early will win you game 1, so I think it's worth the inclusion. Kind of like how Moat can totally wreck certain aggro decks, the Moon can be incredibly problematic for a lot of the format. It can slow the Enchantress player down too, but the deck needs multiple turns to win anyways. Having several "auto-win" cards maindeck for the meta is important towards getting game 1 victory, as games 2 and 3 can be rough for the Enchantress player.

I've lost games because Blood Moon turned off my Serra's Sanctum. I think it's a meta call to run the Moon maindeck, and it might be the right meta call for you, but I think If I was going to play manabase hate maindeck, I'd rather have Choke.

[Sevryn]

Don't forget that Guile can come down turn 1. Entering play that early is very powerful, and is magnified by however many fetchlands and other shuffle effects you are running. Library CAN come down turn 2, but it is more likely you are dropping an engine piece at that point.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I tried using Mirri's Guile, but I found that in general I'd rather have a Sylvan library out. Sylvan lets you keep the cards if you really need them, and as has been said before combos well with WoWar. In fact, sometimes in the first game when your opponent doesn't have too much anti-enchantment, you can drop a War early and gradually kill them, instead of having to set up the entire Confinement lock to finish them. Guile seems to only be great when it's in your opening hand, and running 4 to up the chances of that seem like a waste of slots.

I have been having great success with running 3 Lotus Petals/1 ESG instead of wild growth. The growths are okay for the drawing and acceleration, but mid-late game you'd rather be drawing lock cards. Early on, the explosiveness of the Petal/ESG lets you get your engine online fast or protect a hard cast from Daze, whereas with growth you'll typically have to wait a turn. Having Argothian out on the first turn is key against a lot of decks. I feel that Petal is sometimes more useful than ESG because there are times when you want red or white and don't have a Sprawl or Taiga out.

I have also been testing 1 Blood Moon maindeck. Sometimes getting this out early will win you game 1, so I think it's worth the inclusion. Kind of like how Moat can totally wreck certain aggro decks, the Moon can be incredibly problematic for a lot of the format. It can slow the Enchantress player down too, but the deck needs multiple turns to win anyways. Having several "auto-win" cards maindeck for the meta is important towards getting game 1 victory, as games 2 and 3 can be rough for the Enchantress player.

Also, FWIW I run 4 Grove and never mind drawing them. 1 is moderate protection, 2 is complete, and 3/4 can tutor you the game lock. Most decks don't run Rev. Silence or Tranquility type things maindeck, so drawing them consistently is important.

Guile drops on turn 1 reliably, Library has to wait for turn 2. Turn 2 I want to play Enchantresses. Chances are I have either a Guile, an Enchantress, or a Presence and a mana accelerator in my opening hand or I'm planning on mulling. That's my only problem with Library is that it costs 1 mana too much, otherwise it's usually the better card as you have the option of picking up extra cards if you really need them and has slight synergy with WoW. I wouldn't run 4 Guiles since the effect only gets better with multiples if you have a shuffle effect ready and even then only slightly. I think 3 is the right number for my purposes. I'm using Guile as a component to dig for Enchantresses and answers and because it makes it easier to keep hands without Enchantresses since Guile + Fetchland = me seeing 6 cards by draw phase of turn 3. I think if you run Library you should look at it more as a replacement for Enchantresses you didn't draw early game. It gives you the draw if you need it but as far as early game digging power it comes down about 7/10ths of a turn later than Guile average I'd guesstimate so instead of seeing more cards earlier when you start with it in your opening grip you get raw drawing power if you need it (and can afford the life loss). Library costing 2 also becomes an issue after SB in my experience, since most of the good sideboard cards that need to be played early have cmc of 2. I used to play Library, then I played a mix, now I just play Guile. It works well for me but there are many great ways to build Enchantress and they all play differently and far be it from me to say, "OMG, Library sucks, play Guile." Especially without running test games with your specific build card for card (which I'm not going to do because it'd distract me from my build).


The only real difference to Petal over ESG is fueling Goyf and the "Gotcha" effect ESG has with Daze and maybe breaking Grove or avoiding Counterbalance to a lesser extent. If you need Petal, run it but if 95% of the time ESG does the trick I'd just go with that. It really has a lot to do with what build you are running obviously and changing even 4 cards between MD and SB could change which is the better choice for you, so I don't think anyone's ever going to be able to give a definitive answer on that.

Of course Enchantress is a really complex deck. What I mean by that is, not only is it one of the most mentally taxing decks to play in Legacy, but every little thing you do to tweak the decklist makes the deck play differently. Guile and Library seem like very similar cards but swapping one for the other and the whole decision tree, from mulligan/keep, to your turn 1~2 play completely changes. Same thing with Petal/ESG to a lesser extent, and of course which silver bullets you decide to MD, 3x vs 4x Grove, SB choices, pretty much every little thing makes a big difference since you see more of your deck in most games on average then any other Legacy deck.

On a related note I hate that it's called Solitaire since what the opponent does often has an incredible amount to do with how I play, if any deck should have been called Solitaire it should have been Solidarity. It's like, oh fun, I get to watch you combo out for 10 minutes and every card you play requires you to do a calculus problem before you decide what the right move is. So glad that deck has passed its prime. Not only was it boring to play against, but it was basically an auto-loss for Enchantress.

Aura doesn't make EE harder to play, although Justice is still probably better than Titania's Song.

Although I agree that a fourth Grove seems excessive. I've at times ran 3 Grove in the MD and 4 Tutor in the board, but that's the farthest I'd go with tutor effects.

Am I missing something? Aura of Silence on the board makes EE cost 2 more to play and they have to be ready to break it as soon as it comes out or risk having you sac Aura to destroy it. So if they want to set it to 1 they have to have 5 mana ready and it just gets harder from there. Karmic Justice is also good vs EE but anyways I was just comparing Titania's Song with other cards that deal with problem artifacts and just using Aura as an example of a better card and EE as the special case exception where Song is better. Or am I mistaken and you were referring to Aura Shards from another post and not responding to me? I's still trying to figure out why he was running Titania's Song and Aura Shards instead of just taking all those out and replacing them with Aura of Silence or similar answers and skipping what seems like a convoluted combo where the net result is a few disenchants. I can't imagine a meta where that would be a good call. Even if everyone played Stax and Enchantress mirror, Aura of Silence would still be better so I'm really curious what he is so worried about.

I ran 3x Grove for a while and had Grove #4 in my sideboard. I almost always end up bringing in Grove #4 in G2 and I decided to either put Karmic Justice or a Grove in the MD and cut a card I found subpar in testing. Grove just seemed like the better choice since a lot more people run targeted removal like Pridemage MD to deal with Counterbalance than things like Deed or EE (and EE only takes out one layer of enchantments at a time), not to mention Grove is at worst a tutor when Justice at worst is an empty vessel. If the meta was such that I thought there was going to be a lot of Deeds and Explosives I would push Grove #4 to the SB and bring in Justice MD or Replenish.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

My understanding is that Sunburst would count the mana used to pay for Aura. So they announce x=0, pay 2 mana of 2 colors, and it doesn't change their play at all unless they wanted to blow it for 1 or 2 (only relevant vs. tokens).


I'd like to add also that the past few pages have just been stellar in terms of people rationally discussing various card choices and the pros and cons.

[Julian23]

My understanding is that Sunburst would count the mana used to pay for Aura. So they announce x=0, pay 2 mana of 2 colors, and it doesn't change their play at all unless they wanted to blow it for 1 or 2 (only relevant vs. tokens).

Confirmed. Aura doesn't harm EE at all.

[dontbiteitholmes]

My understanding is that Sunburst would count the mana used to pay for Aura. So they announce x=0, pay 2 mana of 2 colors, and it doesn't change their play at all unless they wanted to blow it for 1 or 2 (only relevant vs. tokens).


I'd like to add also that the past few pages have just been stellar in terms of people rationally discussing various card choices and the pros and cons.

Ah, okay fair enough. I forgot the extra counted towards sunburst, I just started playing again after a 3 year break and I'm still a little shaky on some of the rules.

[Carabas]

If your opponent has less than 2 colorless sources, Aura will stop EE from being played at 0. Just got this confirmed from multiple judges on the askthejudge IRC.