[Archetype] CounterTop

[Petal Collector]

I prefer Pridemage because you can hit artifacts/enchantments without having to wait for a combat phase, it adds additional exalted triggers with Hierarch (I've often attacked for 7 in the air with Vendilion Clique), and its a solid 2-drop for CB/curve considerations as mentioned before.

Also it swings for 3 by itself, rather than Trygon which swings for 2 alone.

[videogamer99]

Both are good. It is ultimately dependent on how you play the deck and personal preference. I personally play the Predator.

Regardless, I was wondering what people thought of Spell Snare v Daze?

Daze and Spell Snare are both there so that I can counter 2 Drops (Daze with CB and Top) I like Spell Snare more overall, but Daze can hit all spells and has the ability to hit 2 drops continuously. What do you guys think?

[Pyronick]

Well I think it's important to factor in what 2 drops we should fear.

If the main one you are worried about is Tarm, then Spell snare would likely out perform Daze because most players (depending on whats been done in the first 2 turns) wouldn't drop one on turn two. This allows them to have the 1 colorless open for Daze more often then not.

Off the top of my head however, he's the only two drop that I can personally think of that is held. The reason I prefer Daze over Spell Snare, is the ability to play out War Monk on turn 2 (With Hierarch) or a Qasali and keep the ability to counter a turn two/three drop for them while being tapped out.

Then factor in the ability to counter anything in the game and I think daze wins out. Yes there will be situations where its sitting in your hand and they have 4 lands out, but I think the benefits outweigh the weaknesses.

Lastly, I too fear Tarm hitting the board as much as anybody else, he's a pain in the butt for any deck really. (OK OK not any deck but you get my point ) And being a Daze runner, I think that Qasali compliments my list well, because of the ability to out Goyf Goyf.

[SMR0079]

There is a thread on sideboarding agaisnt Lands/u - What are the best options for countertop? Both with and without Progentius.

Back to Basics is a great hoser but it's very narrow considering how few basics Countertop runs. Right now I just have graveyard hate and pithing needle.

[videogamer99]

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rhox War Monk

I like the changes I made. What do you all think?

[sauce]

im pretty sure id rather play either EE or Llawan as I imagine Firespout are there cuz of merfolk.

[4zureSky]

Yea, I agree with sauce. Llawan is sb'd only toward something with blue and is kind of limited due to that. Firespouts maindecked is more versatile and can go from goblins to merfolk and it doesn't kill our gofys and rhox war monks. I would rather side in EE than Llawan just because it is more versatile like firespouts.

[videogamer99]

I am playing Firespout for the Merfolk match-up. I used to play folk awhile ago. A timely Firespout paired with a Path or Swords can destroy the deck. Saying that, if I were to change my deck more, I would cut the Volcanic Island for a Tropical Island, 2 Firespout for Llawan and the 3rd Firespout for a 3rd K-Grip. Personally, I like Spout the most since it is good against Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins. It also hurts affinity and Dredge if they can't win on their turn. I dont like EE against Goblins, affinity, and dredge. I just see Firespout as more powerful against one of my, if not the, worst matchup.

[sauce]

if your meta has a lot of merfolk & goblins, i am afraid to tell you but cbtop is not the deck to play... i dont like playing bad matchups all the time.

[aTn]

Maindeck bounce (e.g. chain of vapor, echoing truth or whipe away) or maindeck Jace, the Mind Scupltor give you outs to Iona if Reanimator or Bant Survival are present in the Top8 tables in your meta (see the Top16 lists in the recent SCG tournament).

[sauce]

ive had 1 main deck echoing truth before, its pretty hawt.

[OurSerratedDust]

I'm sure this will show off my inexperiencedness, but has anyone ever considered Ajani Vengeant in the board? For the elspeth players out there, you could board him in for her, and either tap down their threats, or burn them out.

[4zureSky]

I think the bad thing about ajani compared to elspeth is the red for ajani and the fact that ajani doesn't make infinite tokens/pump up ur creatures. Having 4 colors as others have said can make the deck inconsistent or unstable.

[Malakai]

If you have some way to stop their Mazes of Ith, i.e. Pithing Needle, Lands is a very winnable matchup, possibly even favorable.

[aTn]

I'm sure this will show off my inexperiencedness, but has anyone ever considered Ajani Vengeant in the board? For the elspeth players out there, you could board him in for her, and either tap down their threats, or burn them out.

In my opinion, A. Vengeant or Elspeth is too slow vs fast aggro, which is very present these days (e.g. Merfolk, Goblins). When you'll land your plainswalker, chances are the board will contain enough opposing creatures to make the life of A. Vengeant or Elspeth a short one. The only MU where I can see having A.Vengeant or Elspeth as something good would be against control.

[Malakai]

In my opinion, A. Vengeant or Elspeth is too slow vs fast aggro, which is very present these days (e.g. Merfolk, Goblins). When you'll land your plainswalker, chances are the board will contain enough opposing creatures to make the life of A. Vengeant or Elspeth a short one. The only MU where I can see having A.Vengeant or Elspeth as something good would be against control.

This is a valid point, and one I agree with. Cards like Vedalken Shackles, Knight of the Reliquary, and Control Magic will all be potent against control decks, and still very useful elsewhere. Elspeth only seems good if you are running Rhox War Monk (to pump) and Noble Hierarch (to hit double white); if that's the case, you should just be running Natural Order in your four slot, as that's essentially the only reason to run either of those two creatures.

[psu42]

Beating lands is pretty easy I thought with ProBant.

1. Fetch basics
2. Get Counterbalance
3. Top with 2 cc on top
4. Natural Order -> Progenitus

They can't keep Glacial Chasm in play forever.

[BantFTW]

elspeth is good against a lot of decks.
Even against Zoo it's good, only not against really fast decks (gobblins and merfolks-^^-)
But it let's you win against normal speed decks.
Also against reanimator it let's u win because u can outrace their creatures with a goyf/rwm

But I think if you are running NOPRO package you don't really need him and 6 slots is also to much I think (if you count progenitus also)
but maybe sideboard I don't know?
And btw Jace is also really annoying and let's you win also against decks so...

I would go or NOPRO or 2 jace and 2 elspeth.
Elspeth and jace aren't death cards but progenitus let's u win the game and that doesn't elspeth or jace always do so..

I really don't know what I should play, we'll see if I test

[4zureSky]

NO Pro vs Elspeth/Jace really depends on how you want to play with your deck and what kind of decks are in your metagame. Sometimes I prefer NO with progenitus and sometimes I prefer elspeth. There are times when I had NO pro and wanted elspeth and other times I had elspeth and wanted NO pro. I tried to include both in there but there were too many dead draws and I decided to go to elspeth with the infinite token/pumping.

[aTn]

The only reasons I play 1 Jace the Mind S. MD is because it bounces Iona and is good against control, which is present in my meta. Against bant survival and reanimator it's more a case of how not to lose than how to win, you then can choose to either play 2 bounce spells MD or 1 bounce + 1 Jace tMS - I chose the latter.