[Deck] Zoo

[Kird Ape]

For those of you that do run helix, what does your burn package look like? Are they basically a substitute for Chain Lightning? I tried Helix as a 2 of instead of Fireblast and they always felt clunky and slowed me down. I do like the idea of life gain especially with Sylvan on the board and the amount of fetches we run plus Horizon Canopy.

I think we've established that Zoo can handle it's own in the Mid-game, but when playing with Chain you get turn one Lynx(FoD, Kird Ape, etc.) go. Then on turn two Chain your guy, attack and then drop Nacatl. That seems like a much better play then just gain 3, kill random critter and attack with Lynx. In the early game is where we're strongest, no? Why not stay on their neck with even more pressure?

[sauce]

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/...cy-report-1st/

see the list there for helixes

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

First off, i figured our posts would get deleted.

And second,

And third, I run this little number of burn
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning

That's all ya need in my opinion. Some people run Fireblast as a random 2of, but i have always advocated against it.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I'm really glad that you two managed to shut down some good conversation about Zoo to carry on about some mindless nonsense. I'd really expect a little more from the two guys that wrote the original primer.

Post up a picture of your river boa so we can all hold hands are stare at it.

I don't care about combo and doomsday stacks, WTF does that have anything at all to do with zoo? You both have stifled a great discussion on furthering Zoo, thanks from all the Zoo players that read this thread daily.

You are more than welcome :) Its what I do. Hmm, I don't have a River Boa, sold em a long time ago. And stopping discussion .... 2 people don't make or break the discussion, just ignore them. People like Rico Suave are on my ignore list because they never add anything meaningful to a conversation, update the ignore list.

[mishima_kazuya]

Won 4 Tarmogoyfs at the Blue Bell Legacy tourney yesterday. I didn't test a lot lately but I have 1.5 years of experience with this archetype. If I had tested more I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be playing the below list. Btw, 2 Taigas, cuz no one had another Taiga to lend me, so eff the Wizards reprint policy.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [CHK] Forest (2)
2 [CHK] Mountain (1)
3 [A] Plateau
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[sauce]

how did the no path to exile treat you? i am too concerned about opposing goyfs and tombstalkers, etc to not play paths.

[Kird Ape]

That is great that you won. Your build is a little aggressive for a "zoo" build, it almost looks like Sligh with Plains for Nacatl, Helix, and some SB stuff. How did having 4 Fireblasts treat you?

My interest is getting peaked about KotR. In my current list I'm running 3 Sylvan, 3 Horizon Canopy, and 2 Treetop Villages. I don't have any 3 drops and am going to test out -1 Sylvan -1 Canopy for 2 KotR. I think it is a mistake to run the Knight and not have some utility to go along with him. I have a 10 fetch package to feed him and I figure come mid game I can get more critters (Village), draw cards (Canopy) or pump up my Lynxes. How about the interaction between him and Sylvan? Not as good as top+fetch, but it will let us look at a fresh 3 the next turn.

I'm almost certain that I will not miss the Canopy, but I'm not so sure about the Library. Is anybody running something similar, I only slightly recall another member mentioning a utility package for the Knight, but I think they were suggesting a Wasteland or 2.

[sauce]

I honestly do not like the Treetop village / Wastelands builds, its just not Zoo.
Its some type of weird Naya control deck. Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?
I run 11 fetchlands and 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Library and 2 KoR.
Yesterday in the tournament I never even drew/cast KoR and still won.
I don't remember the last time I even had knight in play.

[Eldariel]

I honestly do not like the Treetop village / Wastelands builds, its just not Zoo.
Its some type of weird Naya control deck. Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?
I run 11 fetchlands and 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Library and 2 KoR.
Yesterday in the tournament I never even drew/cast KoR and still won.
I don't remember the last time I even had knight in play.

Because Wastelands allow you to keep the game in the early game phase where Zoo wins, and gives you an inkling of chance against combo as a manascrew tool? Honestly, Wasteland has been played in Sligh-type decks and even more-so in more creature heavy aggro decks for as long as it has existed; the effect is just precisely what such a deck wants. And Treetop Village? If they topdeck an answer to your Knight, you'll look really silly if you didn't have anything to fetch, but if you fetched a Treetop or a Horizon Canopy, you are still a threat ahead even though they topdecked the answer. Against many removal-heavy decks, you don't play the tempo game but the "last threat in play"-game. This is also how the mirror works.

There are lots of weird conceptions about what "Zoo" means and the purity of archetype, but honestly, that's all pretty trivial. Either way, we're talking about an archetype that aims to reduce opponent's life to 0 ASAP and while using efficient removal and burn to deal with any potential obstacles and to speed up the clock. If the deck packs large amounts of burn and is prone to burning the face, it'll fall more under Sligh while if the primary gameplan is winning by swinging and the deck packs over 20 creatures, chances are it falls under Zoo/"Naya Deck Wins" (Red Deck Wins in Naya-colors, with pseudo-control elements to keep opponent off-balance long enough to win and using burn primarily as removal). Both can make great use of Wasteland, but neither has to. Wasteland should be treated as a spell, but a very efficient one at that due to the deck's speed. Knight+Waste is all pure bonus; it's an extremely powerful synergy but not the reason either card is in the deck.

[Kird Ape]

The reason why Treetop is in the deck is simply to have a chance against an active counter/top. It slips in and puts pressure on them, helps out against mana denial, and with KotR, is another threat that gets played for basically free.

There were 2 instances where I thought Treetop was the nuts at SCG Richmond:
1) Pridemage go.
Standstill go.
Treetop Village go and proceed with beats until he had to break his own standstill; 4/4 trees ftw.

2) Ability to get G without having forests and allowed the zoo player (Hatfield) to avoid Submerge while he played his threats and easily won.


"Why isnt Knight being a huge creature for 3 mana that can shuffle your library sufficient enough?"

I think it has something to do with me being super ultra mega cheap and I want the most out of everything I buy/use. If I'm going to use a creature with an ability, I want to exploit it for all it's worth. The way I'm looking at it, I already have all the things in my deck that improve KotR (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy). So why not use KotR's ability that will improve my board, hand, super attack (Treetop, Horizon Canopy, Steppe Lynx) to it's fullest.

[Nessaja]

I think it has something to do with me being super ultra mega cheap and I want the most out of everything I buy/use. If I'm going to use a creature with an ability, I want to exploit it for all it's worth. The way I'm looking at it, I already have all the things in my deck that improve KotR (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy). So why not use KotR's ability that will improve my board, hand, super attack (Treetop, Horizon Canopy, Steppe Lynx) to it's fullest.

You realize you're using valuable spots in your deck for otherwise suboptimal choices because of 4 cards in your deck? This means that the times you don't draw your 4-off, or your 4-off gets countered/removed you're playing a suboptimal deck.

[mishima_kazuya]

Based on my experience playing Extended Zoo, Treetop Village as a one of with KotR was a pretty good addition. I was never sad to see it.

I think Wasteland might be a solid addition for this deck, but that would require a huge overhaul on the manabase. You'd probably have cut the white down to a minimum and play more like a RG sligh deck.

And we all know how deadly a deck with fast beats, efficient burn AND solid land destruction is.

[Nelis]

Based on my experience playing Extended Zoo, Treetop Village as a one of with KotR was a pretty good addition. I was never sad to see it.

I think Wasteland might be a solid addition for this deck, but that would require a huge overhaul on the manabase. You'd probably have cut the white down to a minimum and play more like a RG sligh deck.

And we all know how deadly a deck with fast beats, efficient burn AND solid land destruction is.

I don't think you should treat them as lands but as spells. You don't have to change your manabase that way (or play a different deck)

There were 2 instances where I thought Treetop was the nuts at SCG Richmond:
1) Pridemage go.
Standstill go.
Treetop Village go and proceed with beats until he had to break his own standstill; 4/4 trees ftw.

Why on earth would he play a Standstill if you have a Pridemage out? Or did he have a bigger creature than 3/3 on the board?

[toor]

It seems like Stirring Wildwood might be better then Treetop. obviously costs one more to activate, but doesn't trade with Nimble, Mishra's Factory or Wild nacatl (or even a 3/x folk). Fixes your mana a bit also.

[sauce]

I don't think you should treat them as lands but as spells. You don't have to change your manabase that way (or play a different deck)



Why on earth would he play a Standstill if you have a Pridemage out? Or did he have a bigger creature than 3/3 on the board?

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

[mishima_kazuya]

The idea is that a singleton manland to along with KotR gives Zoo more options. It turns dead midgame lands into threats, pretty nice in the mirror and against control decks.

[Kird Ape]

"the standstill player was clearly terrible"

I'm sorry guys, I forgot to add that he had a mishra out and was clearly trying to bait the Zoo player into using the Pridemage on Standstill.

"You realize you're using valuable spots in your deck for otherwise suboptimal choices because of 4 cards in your deck? This means that the times you don't draw your 4-off, or your 4-off gets countered/removed you're playing a suboptimal deck."

I read this like 5 times and I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. What it seems like you are saying is that 1 or more of the 5 cards I named (Fetches, Fireblast, Canopy, Treetop, Steppe Lynx) are bad and or dependant on KotR. KotR isn't even in my current build.... Could you please explain exactly what I'm running (I haven't posted a deck list) that is suboptimal.

All I'm saying is I already run Lynx (4), Fireblast(2), Treetop(2), Canopy(3), and Sylvan (3). So I drop a Canopy and a Library to pick up 2 KotR.

"it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially"

If you have a crap hand like that, there is no shame in the T1 Treetop. T2 leaves you open for Goyf or Nacatl and Lavamancer/Lynx/FoD. I'm running 24 lands and the 2 of Treetop did not slow me down all day at SCG Richmond. Hatfield ran 3 and he didn't have troubles either. In the 3 solid days of testing prior, neither of us had issues. The treetop isn't counted as a land, we counted them as spells. Getting G is just a bonus.

[Nelis]

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

Yeah I feel the same. For every random win you'll also have a random lose.

[Eldariel]

the standstill player was clearly terrible.
to add to the whole treetop discussion, it seems bad when you want to go t1 nacatl and all u have is treetop and fetchland, then ur basically saying ok, im going to fetch for taiga and play nacatl but forego playing my t2 goyf and not have white mana potentially, its just bad.
i dont know why you would want to slow down a deck that wants to "reduce opponent's life from 20 to 0 as fast as possible" by adding come into play tapped lands that are also a liability under bloodmoon/magus/wasteland

That argument applies to all non-basics. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

[Nelis]

1. That argument applies to all non-basics.
2. Simply though, Treetop is the most effective manland in print and simply means you don't keep hands where it's your only source. Extended Zoo has been running it to great effect. When you try to win the game by beats, adding an extra threat that doubles as a land and can be found via. Knight is a great way to ensure you have enough gas to take the removal and get in there.

1. Why? The other non-basics do not come into play tapped.

2. You don't keep hands with one land anyway. But now you can also not keep a two land hand with Treetop.