SDT is just boring. I play 4 in Storm Combo and sometimes even I hate it. Sometimes it just goes "EOT check top, crack fetch, check top, Mystical Tutor, check top, draw check top, play fetch, crack fetch, look top" and all that time my opponent is just staring at me with a tapped Nacatl, some lands and a Goyf. While timing issues are centainly not a problem in the Storm deck it is in control decks like Supreme Blue or any U(w/b) Whatever.Originally Posted by Morbid-
I also really hate how Countertop is an easily assembled combo that locks a lot of decks out of the game (combo especially) and can even protect itself. I would just love seeing Countertop fanatics having to play with Scroll Rack or some other non-utterly broken artifact along with Counterbalance.
Dragon is bad, it was the reason Entomb was banned to begin with. Plus, no one wants to have lethal damage pending just for the Dragon player to autodraw the game with a stupid infinite loop.
Until Top shows up in every deck, which it won't, it shouldn't be banned. But
if Land Tax is unbanned, Top must be banned, since the combination of them would
certainly cause time considerations.
Mana Drain would be a nice kick in the pants for pure control decks to get off the ground.
Earthcraft is too good.
Time Spiral is fine; once you get to 6 mana there are better ways to win the game. Frantic Search, on the other hand, would not be good because High Tide decks would get ridiculously good.
I see Time Spiral as an Ad Nauseam for High Tide decks. It is a must counter, otherwise you're dead. Getting 7 cards and a bunch of mana from 1 spell is broken, and I wouldn't like to see another deck like ANT running around. Actually I think that Ad Nauseam is already over the top, it is a freaking one-card combo.
"Want all, lose all."
I think it would be the best for the format, but I don't enjoy getting kharma-banned just because some players really enjoy winning tournament after tournament with them.
Time Spiral is a a better Diminshing Returns in NLS (and would immediately replace DReturns in all NLS sideboards) and I'm not sure about TES. The reason I'm not sure on TES is that with so much acceleration, TES often uses DReturns as an "all in" play for 6-7 mana floating 0-1 mana. TES plays so many initial mana sources that this has a very high chance of resulting in a kill whereas in something with lands replacing moxen/rituals/spirit guides (NLS), you're not as likely to have a t1-t2 DReturns be lethal.
The nice part about Time Spiral is that, while it does cost a couple extra mana (not an issue in storm combo), it will generally provide between one and three mana as it resolves giving decks without as many initial mana sources but more business (say, NLS) a very large benefit. Whether this is bigger than just casting DReturns with 2 mana floating would require some math and a lot of testing.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Ok, first of all I won't be discussing Mana Drain and Worldgorger Dragon because clearly they shouldn't be the first cards in the unban list for a number of reasons.
The rest:
Land Tax: Unban. Or ban top, because everything Land Tax does its done annoyingly by top a hell lot worse. Card advantage is nice but its restrictive and there is only a number of decks that could use Land Tax and get advantage from it -remember, the average number of basic lands isn't that big outside rogue decks-. Probably the nastiest thing you can do with land tax is to run less lands and have a less diluted deck, that may be good, but not broken.
Goblin Recruiter: Unban. As others said, Food Chain goblins isn't even completely superior to vial goblins, unless you find a middle point in which Recruiter is broken without Chain then this card will be hardly an issue.
Illusionary Mask: Unban. It comes from a day an age in which it was needed to get Dreadnought down, right now we got stifle, vision charm and a number of ways to cheat the big 12/12 into play which can be useful on their own. Right now it just does too little for too much cash.
Mind Twist: Unban. Your average deck cannot do anything with it, decks that pull that much mana that fast better be combo decks or have ancient tombs laying around; in both cases Mind Twist would be a lot less dangerous than other cards since it asks for lots of resources to actually become good.
Time Spiral: Unban. Could be a cool card to have around, like Dream Halls, no current deck can use it to a breaking point. As its a combo piece, its likely to go unused for a long-time so either unban it quick or don't feel pressed to do it, its presence in the format ain't likely to spawn new strategies.
And I think those unbans should be the first to take place. Among those I mentioned the only one who could have an open ended use would be Land Tax, the rest is mostly safe because of their respective niche in which they are surpassed already. Earthcraft, Grim Monolith and Frantic Search could be discussed further before their removal from the list, we're not in a hurry and unbanning from 3 to 5 cards before should be nice enough for the moment.
No bannings should take place. SDT is annoying but hardly broken, not unlike Brainstorm, Tarmogoyf, Aether Vial and other emblematic cards of the format.
I'm most likely going to get hated on, but I can't understand why some cards seem beyond discussion, and the mere mention of discussing them brings about a backlash. I think a lot of people pre-suppose banned cards are broken without having ever tested them in the current environment. I think if Forsythe is really interested in developing a banned list that reflects a true separation between broken/bad for the game and good for the game, he needs to have people knowledgeable in the format to build and playtest cards in consideration for unbanning.
For example, (here comes the hate), Oath of Druids is an automatic undiscussable topic for some people. I remember when I first joined The Source last August there was an SCD thread made for Oath and it was promptly locked. That kind of inability to even discuss the card makes me wonder how truly broken it can be. I mean, ANT can go off on turn one and consistently on turns 2 or 3 (see my signature). But somehow aenchantment (that brings out a creature during my upkeep if my opponent controls a creature) is supposed to make me shit my pants? People talk about how fragile Belcher is, but isn't Oath also a little fragile? Yeah, it runs counters, but doesn't Reanimator as well? Reanimator has shown us (I believe, anyway) that there is a nice thick line between great and broken/format warping. Entomb enabled another tier 1 deck, but that deck is not trouncing every other deck in the world. Top 8s are still varied. I guess I don't see clearly how Oath would demolish every other deck in the field and start posting 4 or 5 of the top 8 at most tournaments.
My point is not to start discussing Oath here and now, more to say that cards need to be thoroughly tested and that blanket, knee-jerk refusal to discuss them is not beneficial to anyone.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
If people played it/against it, they'd learn the rules on it.
Other mechanics, like Dredge, Bridge from Below, and Morphs are a lot more confusing.
@ Above: I can't believe Oath of Druids has to be discussed. I've played against it in Vintage, and used to play against it all the time before the split. Especially with Forbidden Orchard, it would rape the modern game.
You talk about Goblin Charbelcher's consistency, but obviously you have no idea what you're talking about. Oath is a 1 to 2 card combo (and 2 only if your opponent runs ZERO creatures). It also requires very minimal room in the deck, at most 8 or 10 slots. Ok, Survival of the Fittest is played. One of their combos is discarding a creature and paying GG to turn it first into Iona, then into Imperial Recruiter, then paying 2W to play it (so 2GGW+a creature) to get Iona. Iona isn't even good enough to see play in Oath, who can get it out for free.
You could have picked a better example, maybe... I dunno Goblin Recruiter. Something most people don't want to see unbanned who only have vague recollections of it being far too strong from a metagame 6+ years ago (where Tarmogoyf would have been unbelievable). But Oath is just ridiculous to discuss.
How about we unban Black Lotus, you guys? It's only like Dark Ritual!
@MMOG:
Could you image turn 2 15/15 Eldrazi guy? The annihilator 6 guy? The pro colored spells guy? That would just be too stupid. Comparing the deck to an already degenerate deck (Belcher) doesn't really help your case.
Nobody likes combo (except combo players). We tolerate combo. I cannot tolerate there being 2-3 more combo decks in the format than there already are.
That said,what SpikeyMikey said about play blue or play combo is almost a direct quote of what nearly all pros think about the format already
(such as Charles Gindy). This is clearly not the case, as shown by decks like Aggro Loam, Goblins, Enchantress etc winning all the SCG 5ks. Pros like to think like this because it makes them feel as if they have a grasp on the format by there being only 4-6 "real" decks. This is why people like Cedric Phillips always play Belcher, he doesn't need to know jack shit about the format besides the fact that he destroys everything without force of will in it.
I agree 100% with comments about how Legacy doesn't need to become more swingy with cards like Recruiter or Skullclamp. Goblins has won the last SCG 5k and got 2nd at the one before that, it obviously doesn't need any help. It doesn't need to be made better.
I would wager that the only safe unbans are Time Spiral and Mind Twist. The only experimental unban would be Earthcraft. So what Elves get better, some 12 year old plays Squirrel Nest, or Enchantress becomes slightly better?
Ich bin aueslander und sprechen nicht gut Deutsch
Mmmmh....?
Oath preys on creature strategies, some people say its a two card combo, but its a one card combo against creature strategies that happens to pretty much win the game. And creatures strategies are the best for the game in the long run because we get to play new cards instead of just comboing with the same three strategies forever.
That's why Oath is not discussed, it just warps the format too much.
Now. Seriously. Stop trolling. Try to make a deck using a playset of Mana Drains and test it against the 7-8 tier decks of legacy (say: Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, AggroLoam, ANT, CBTop, Aggro/Survi-Bant, Ichorid). Then ask yourself: Is Mana Drain is breaking the format?
If more than three people in this thread is advocating to unban Mana Drain, at least it`s not that "Clearly". Or you should be insulting us.
To be perfectly honest here, there actually are only a few Tier I decks in the format: Zoo, NO Counterbalance, Merfolk, and Ad Nauseum. Other decks are Tier II or Tier 1.5 if the meta for them is right, but don't conflate metagame foils and decks that only do well if the amount of blue in the room is high enough to suppress storm with actual Tier I decks.
Banning Top for time issues while advocating the unbanning of Land Tax is silly.
Earthcraft in Enchantress seems weak for a number of reasons, most already mentioned by Stephen: the combo is easy to break up with Pithing Needle, making it poor as a sole win condition; it requires two cards, neither of which piggyback off of the deck's engines like Sigil or Words of War currently do; Earthcraft is basically a blank by itself because the Enchantress deck plays very few creatures; you can't run Moat and Earthcraft in the same deck, making your aggro matchups worse. It seems fine for the format.
EDIT: Oath is probably a little too strong. Imagine taking the Reanimator shell, swapping 4 Entomb for 4 Oath, and then cutting all but two creatures for more counters - stuff like Counterbalance-Top, say. Or add board control. Mystical becomes Enlightened, etc. You could drop black and run Bant colors.
I think a big reason Mana Drain goes on being banned is because its price would skyrocket (buzz word!) if it were unbanned. Legacy blue decks don't need ANOTHER $500 or whatever playset to be competitive.
Dragon should stay banned. I don't care how shitty the combo is. The least thing any format needs is lots of combo decks running around that require the opponent to play Force of Will or mull for one STP.
EDIT:
@Aggro_zombies: I can't read the article, but what you said is true. I also think Land Tax is too much of a time-misers card.
Ich bin aueslander und sprechen nicht gut Deutsch
Pocket shouldn`t be an issue in terms of banning/unbanning. In fact, 'they' say it isn`t.
Have you ever played against Dragon? I used to. First of all, we don't have Bazaar. That means the deck needs a few turns to set up. Second, it doesn't like graveyard hate, creature removal, or enchantment removal. That means it's weak to:
Unsummon
Swords/Path
Extirpate (bonus for uncounterable)
Krosan Grip (also uncounterable)
Nature's Claim
Pridemage
Faerie Macabre
Tormod's Crypt and Relic
Leyline
AND countermagic.
Although it takes up fewer slots, that's the same list of weaknesses that Entomb-Hulk has. That deck sees no play. Dragon isn't that big of a deal.
InfoNinjas
I seriously think Land Tax should get considerations. MTG Salvation is running a Legacy tournament with Land Tax and I have not heard any complains about Land Tax, whether its format warping or time consuming.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Online tournaments never had time issues with top also, but that doesn`t mean real tournaments may have.
I think one argument that hasn't been mentioned w/regards to unbannings is design space restrictions. The more "it's close, but probably ok" cards we take off the banned list, the more times R&D will be in the process of designing a card for Legacy and have to stop and say "wait, this is broken with X. I mean, I really like this version of the card, and its really innovative, but if we print this, we'll have to ban X. Is printing this card worth banning X?" The answer to that question will almost always be "No". So, with a few exceptions like the obviously safe Land Tax, I'm generally not in favor of taking much off of the banned list. I'd like to see WOTC continue to try and sneak a few Legacy aimed cards into newer sets than get 5-6 semi-broken cards back from ban-land.
Also, Mind Twists real power isn't on T1 in this format, it's on T3 when it can emtpy your hand without your opponent screwing up their whole game plan. It's a HUGE boost to Rock style decks and midrange, but in a swingy, unfun way. Don't know if they want that in the format or not.
EDIT: Time isn't an issue with stuff like Top/Tax online because MTGO has a chess clock. It prevents people from "winning" by stalling out game 2 if they win game 1 with a slow deck. I've always wondered why RL tourneys don't use a chess clock themselves, would seem a good way to address slow play issues.
Mmmmmmh? You feel I'm trolling? Excuse me if I gave you that impression. I assume you don't know I have always advocated for unbanning Worldgorger Dragon, I think the card should be unbanned but I don't think it should be unbanned just now. The unbannings have to be part of a process, weak cards should leave the list first and then move into stronger cards. Should we unban Tolarian Academy and let Frantic Search banned because of their interaction? Of course not, there should be order, even if we're among those who think Tolarian Academy wouldn't be a problematic card -Tolarian combos ceased to exist before storm even existed-, its more logical to let Frantic Search roam free before unbanning the poster problem card. Or maybe Tolarian Academy is acceptable but Frantic Search breaks it in half? Clearly there is more to say in this kind of debate than in Land Tax's or Goblin Recruiter's. As such, I think they have no priority, nor does Skullclamp, for example.
Can the format handle mana drain? Probably. Can they handle Grim Monolith? Most surely. But people are afraid of unbannings and have the banned list in a good esteem, this is a good think, the process should be gradual until we can say that cleaning the list has been effective and acceptable before going places that people feel are "too far".
I played against Dragon before people used Bazaar (or at least people who couldn't afford Bazaar). It came down to whether I drew hate or not. Not that that is the only reason for banning the deck, but the deck just flat out isn't fun. It can draw the game consistently on a whim and that is terrible for the format. You unban Dragon and all of a sudden you have people going 3-0-4 or something in swiss rounds which is just annoying, and top 8 matches would take forever because all the Dragon player needs to do is draw the game until he can draw a kill spell. Dragon will never be unbanned because of the infinite loop interaction.
Can blue decks support a UU hard counter? Counterspell is a great card and it doesn't see play. A good amount of decks with blue use a ton of colored mana so the extra colorless boost might not even help them too much. It would fight for spots with Counterbalance, and Counterbalance would usually win because of the interaction with Top. Pure control decks seem to be practically dead and I want to see people powering out a turn 4 Morphling with protection again. Maybe it's nostalgia for when I started out during the Vintage boom right before the split, but I see no problem with Mana Drain in the current metagame. Obviously this one needs to be tested a little more but I think it's solid.
Land Tax should only be unbanned along with a simultaneous ban of Top.
Grim Monolith is safe and should be unbanned also.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote