[Premium Article] Six Cards to Unban in Legacy (VOTE!)

[Cabal_chan]

Online tournaments never had time issues with top also, but that doesn`t mean real tournaments may have.

There is also the question of whether or not people are actually running Land Tax in that tournament.

[Gulang Weinmer]

The Unban of Earthcraft can give to Enchantress a clock.

This has allow Enchantress to remove other win condition and to use Chrome Mox|Elvish Spirit Guide|Lotux Petal to play Earthcraft with Squirrel Nest in early game turn.

[johanessen]

Mmmmmmh? You feel I'm trolling? Excuse me if I gave you that impression. I assume you don't know I have always advocated for unbanning Worldgorger Dragon, I think the card should be unbanned but I don't think it should be unbanned just now. The unbannings have to be part of a process, weak cards should leave the list first and then move into stronger cards. Should we unban Tolarian Academy and let Frantic Search banned because of their interaction? Of course not, there should be order, even if we're among those who think Tolarian Academy wouldn't be a problematic card -Tolarian combos ceased to exist before storm even existed-, its more logical to let Frantic Search roam free before unbanning the poster problem card. Or maybe Tolarian Academy is acceptable but Frantic Search breaks it in half? Clearly there is more to say in this kind of debate than in Land Tax's or Goblin Recruiter's. As such, I think they have no priority, nor does Skullclamp, for example.

Can the format handle mana drain? Probably. Can they handle Grim Monolith? Most surely. But people are afraid of unbannings and have the banned list in a good esteem, this is a good think, the process should be gradual until we can say that cleaning the list has been effective and acceptable before going places that people feel are "too far".

I`m.... lost. So what`s the exact reason you`re giving that you think Mana Drain is banned?

[(nameless one)]

Honestly, I would not use SDTop with Land Tax. I would use Scroll Rack with it.

[Di]

Is Dragon actually that big of a deal? With Pridemages, Krosan Grips, and graveyard hate everywhere, AND with Bazaar banned, it doesn't seem overpowered. It's a three card combo, Animate Dead / Necromancy are enchantments, plus you need something like Compulsion to draw cards...ending games in stalls is lame, but it's another combo like Earthcraft that won't be wrecking metagames any time soon.

I can guarantee if Worldgorger were back in the format, it's be rebanned within the next six months. Once Entomb was unbanned, I made a theoretical list of what the deck would look like currently. It was a complete blowout against the entire field. Reanimator is one of the best decks in the format currently, and Dragon is just as fast if not faster, even more resilient thanks to Necromancy, and wins immediately. It's generally faster than a majority of the hate cards you'd see like Pridemage and Krosan Grip, and it could very easily run Abeyance out of the sideboard to shut off all hate and then Ritual out the win. The deck is blazingly fast and even more consistent than current Reanimator decks. On top of that, cards that shut off Reanimator such as Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance aren't nearly as good against Dragon due to diversified mana costs of Animate spells. On top of this, Necromancy's instant speed completely bypasses things like Tormod's Crypt if paired with another Animate spell. It still also has bounce spells as well, and would likely run upwards of 16-20 draw/tutor spells to find everything (some combination of Brainstorm, Ponder, Intuition, Lim-Duls's Vault, and Read the Runes would likely make the cut) so it's always going to find am answer or a way around hate. It's just too damn good imo.

[anonymos]

Banning Top for time issues while advocating the unbanning of Land Tax is silly.

Earthcraft in Enchantress seems weak for a number of reasons, most already mentioned by Stephen: the combo is easy to break up with Pithing Needle, making it poor as a sole win condition; it requires two cards, neither of which piggyback off of the deck's engines like Sigil or Words of War currently do; Earthcraft is basically a blank by itself because the Enchantress deck plays very few creatures; [bold]you can't run Moat and Earthcraft in the same deck, making your aggro matchups worse.[/bold] It seems fine for the format.

I think Top and Land Tax shouldn't be allowed to play together. I see that being a legitimate time concern more than anything else. We can live with having them exist in a vacuum, but together may be a bad thing. It's also another card I'd love to tinker around with in enchantress.

Enchantress not wanting Earthcraft?!?! Are you kidding? I love how people immediately think about squirrel nest. We already run Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth and white cards. Know what that means? FOR PONY! Yes, that means the return of everyone's favorite white enchantment Sacred Mesa. I'd be willing to suffer having a marginally useless Earthcraft as a one of (can still use it with an Enchantress to get more manas) that means I win next turn with another card that is still semi-played. I think I'd even be convinced to make the swap toward Spatula's combo list if this happened.

[lordofthepit]

Hey Smmenen, I understand that you need to post premium articles because StarCityGames pays you to share your tech or the data that you've spent a lot of time researching. However, it seems counterproductive in this case, where you're presenting an argument for unbanning six cards, and as it affects the entire format, it seems like this is an argument you'd want to share with the entire community and not just premium subscribers. Especially considering that you're encouraging us to vote for feedback, which isn't possible without a premium subscription. =)

[Smmenen]

Hey Smmenen, I understand that you need to post premium articles because StarCityGames pays you to share your tech or the data that you've spent a lot of time researching. However, it seems counterproductive in this case, where you're presenting an argument for unbanning six cards, and as it affects the entire format, it seems like this is an argument you'd want to share with the entire community and not just premium subscribers. Especially considering that you're encouraging us to vote for feedback, which isn't possible without a premium subscription. =)

On the other hand, a premium subscription costs what a Subway footlong costs, so it's pretty accessible to anyone. I'd highly recommend a subscription. Especially since I just received every single decklist from GP Madrid, which I will be sharing in the next couple of weeks :p

Also, WOTC will be reading the poll data in the article. So get a subscription and vote!

[Smmenen]

Yay. Another Land Tax thread.

I say no to Land Tax, no to Earthcraft, no to Goblin Recruiter, and -hell- no to Mask.

Probably safe are Mind Twist and I don't honestly know about Time Spiral. Haven't thought about it much.

That said, if you just take the rules of what Smennen said (Pick the most unbannable of each color/artifact), it's hard to argue his result. I might have picked Memory Jar over Illusionary Mask, but there's really no good choices for artifacts to come off the banned list. Everything else is hard to argue. Land Tax, Earthcraft, Time Spiral, and Mind Twist are definitely the least offensive of their colors. Goblin Recruiter might or might not lose out to Worldgorger Dragon, though.

Have you read the new errata on Mask? It's awful. The creature can now be countered. How is Mask a problem?

[Bahamuth]

While I don't agree that Reanimator is one of the best decks in Legacy right now, I don't see how Dragon could be better at all. If I'm correct, Dragon is a 3-card combo? That's absolutely terrible.

Doesn't Dragon lose the instant Pridemage hits, or Grip comes online? You can't race a 3 turn clock with potential counter backup with a deck built around a 3-card combo. There's no way. Even most forms of Tendrills combo, that are way more redundant, can't always win turn 3 protected.

ANT is running Chant, which is better than Abeyance, and the engine of the deck is superior, yet that deck isn't overpowered? I don't see how a 3 card combo that is susceptible to graveyard hate and enchantment removal could possibly be better than the engine of storm combo.

[morgan_coke]

I'd vote no on Mask simply for clarity issues. Seriously, does anyone know how the card actually works? (not how it plays, or what it does, I mean how it works. Subtle but important difference.)

That said, if you just take the rules of what Smennen said (Pick the most unbannable of each color/artifact), it's hard to argue his result. I might have picked Memory Jar over Illusionary Mask, but there's really no good choices for artifacts to come off the banned list.

Have you read the new errata on Mask? It's awful. The creature can now be countered. How is Mask a problem?

Incomprehensible card is bad. I'm glad Time Vault is banned just so I don't have to spend 10 minutes figuring out what the current errata is and how it affects play every time somebody drops one.

[Vacrix]

I played against Dragon before people used Bazaar (or at least people who couldn't afford Bazaar). It came down to whether I drew hate or not. Not that that is the only reason for banning the deck, but the deck just flat out isn't fun. It can draw the game consistently on a whim and that is terrible for the format. You unban Dragon and all of a sudden you have people going 3-0-4 or something in swiss rounds which is just annoying, and top 8 matches would take forever because all the Dragon player needs to do is draw the game until he can draw a kill spell. Dragon will never be unbanned because of the infinite loop interaction.

Couldn't WoTC get around the draw interaction by adding something to the rules that says 'all infinite loops end at a finite number'? That would prevent the draws I think. Your opponent isn't actually looping it 100,000 times. He says that he does that way he doesn't actually have to cycle through the whole thing again. If a player can do something like that, then why can't a rule also say that he must stop cycling at some point, ie. at a finite number. Just make a player pick a number and he does the loop that many times.

On a side note, Solidarity doesn't really win shit anymore and seriously needs a speed boost like Frantic Search to be competitive. Solidarity and Spring Tide would run it, but which other decks would run it? Its deals you 3 off AdN but current ANT/TES/NLS builds can't really abuse it that much because untapping lands just makes it a free card quality spell. Its not insane like it is in High Tide where you want card quality and untap abilities. I think it would completely replace Turnabout in most High Tide builds. I can't really see it fitting in anywhere else and being broken. Its like a double street wraith that makes you discard twice. I vote to unban it.

[(nameless one)]

On the other hand, a premium subscription costs what a Subway footlong costs, so it's pretty accessible to anyone. I'd highly recommend a subscription. Especially since I just received every single decklist from GP Madrid, which I will be sharing in the next couple of weeks :p

Also, WOTC will be reading the poll data in the article. So get a subscription and vote!

The problem is not about WotC reading the article, its if they would actually listen to it.

Remember what happened with the Reprint Policy? So much for getting you guys summoned. Not blaming you and all, the main issue if they would actually listen/approve.

Also, lordofthepit actually has a point.

[Arrowni]

I`m.... lost. So what`s the exact reason you`re giving that you think Mana Drain is banned?

There is no reason.

We can agree that the card is powerful, some people with say "too powerful" others with say "just powerful enough to matter", I think the latter, but I don't expect everyone to think like me. The thing is, when it comes to wizards asking our opinion I think that the most important thing is reaching consensus.

I don't mind keeping some cards in the list a little longer, because each unbanning sets a precedent. Both Entomb and Dream Halls were cited by some as "too powerful" and the latter as "too weak" at times, either way many doubted the unbannings would take place and/or have a propose. Now we have a precedent that those cards have allowed new archtypes into the format without warping things beyond recognition. So if we continue to follow these path people will realize that unbannings can be good for the format and maybe then we can move into the heavy names such as Mana Drain.

Personally I don't think more than three bannings/inbannings should happen at a single time, because otherwise you don't realize which choice is changing the format entirely if undesired things happen. As such, I'll be happy if just some of the less debated cards are unbanned.

[DrJones]

On a side note, Solidarity doesn't really win shit anymore and seriously needs a speed boost like Frantic Search to be competitive. Solidarity and Spring Tide would run it, but which other decks would run it?

At least those decks: Enchantress, Lands, Survival-Iona, Countertop-progenitus.

[Smmenen]

Incomprehensible card is bad. I'm glad Time Vault is banned just so I don't have to spend 10 minutes figuring out what the current errata is and how it affects play every time somebody drops one.

do people agree that this is a reason to ban a card? There are many other cards that are difficult to read/understand, especially without oracle (Chains of Mephistopheles comes to mind), but they aren't banned, nor imo should they be.

[emidln]

After thinking about it some, I'm fairly sure I would like to play a deck that starts like this:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

and ends like this:

// acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

// bombs
3 Doomsday
2 Burning Wish
4 Lim-Dul's Vault/Mystical Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island

Of course, I'd also probably consider this deck:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Tarmogoyf
32 Other cards, possibly including some lands

Some fun drain sinks for Legacy:

Thopter/Sword of the Meek Combo
Gifts Ungiven
Fact or Fiction
Pernicious Deed
Humility/Moat
Sensei's Divining Top
Mishra's Factory
Meditate
Smokestack/Crucible

While I don't see it ever getting unbanned on price alone, it seems like, at the very worst, some sort of Ux ThopterFoundry Gifts deck would really like it some Mana Drain, if not something more exotic like my Doomsday list that uses Drain as acceleration into the kill.

[menace13]

If people played it/against it, they'd learn the rules on it.

. Iona isn't even good enough to see play in Oath, who can get it out for free.

!

I think i read this wrong, not sure, but i know Iona is what has given Oath a boost in play and top 8s-not sure if u were sarcastic hard to read into online-

There are a large number of cards banned that today wouldnt be. Land Tax,Mind Twist,Mask and monolith can safely come off the list.
I do not think WGD w/o Bazaar is good at all-for example, it is availlable fully on MTGO Classic and has never made a showing this year at all not once ever even no not 1 time. Havent built a legacy legal list(someone said they had built it, curious as to the list, would love to build and test it vs DTBs)
Not sure on Hermit Druid -that has shown up a few times on classic and can sometimes just turn 2 win.
Would have to ask the combo experts on Time Spiral and Mind's Desire-Desire has shown top 8s on classic, but nowhere near the amount of ANT.
Earthcraft elves was for a time one of the best decks in classic , not sure if it was due to the Skullclamps too-they usually broke the game wide open once clamp hit play-.
Cant really comment on Mana Drain-sees play in Classic, but usually not fast enough for Bazaar Ichorid and ANT. Could it make Landstill of old a top deck again?

[Smmenen]

FYI:

Do you believe Illusionary Mask can be safely unbanned?
Total votes: 681
(88.99%) results! Yes
(11.01%) results! No

So far...

[wolfstorm]

I personally would love to see frantic search unbanned.. would be fun to play solidarity again or try making a madness list with it.