There are many Rize of Eldrazi cards that will be applicable in Legacy. Inquisition of Kozilek, Emrakul the Aeons Torn, Kor Spiritdancer, Ancient Stirrings, Devastating Summons, etc. These are all cards with either Legacy potential or direct, preexisting Legacy applications. There is one card not on this list, however. One card that is so powerful and so relevant to Legacy that it indisputably deserves its own thread. I am talking about Training Grounds.
Training Grounds {U}
Enchantment
Activated abilities of creatures you control cost up to {2} less to activate. This effect can't reduce the amount of mana an ability costs to activate to less than one mana.
A few rules notes about this card:
1. Training Grounds does NOT under any circumstances reduce an activated ability's cost to less than 1. That means Bog Initiate plus Grounds is not infinite mana.
2. Training Grounds only reduces colorless mana costs of the abilities.
3. Training Grounds has no effect on activated abilities that do not have at least {2} in their activation cost.
4. Colorless activation costs CAN be reduced to 0, so long as the TOTAL ability activation is not less than 1. For instance, an ability that costs 2G would only cost G with a Grounds in play. An ability that costs 2BB would only cost BB. etc.
With the technical stuff out of the way, let's get to the fun business. This is a powerful card in all formats (except perhaps Vintage), but it finds an absurd home in Legacy. We have the largest pool of creatures with which to abuse Training Grounds. We also have the most protection for our abuses (FoW, Daze, Duress, Thoughtseize, Countertop, Inquisition, etc.) This makes Legacy the format most poised to abuse Training Grounds. I am going to point out some of the best Grounds combos that we have at our disposal. A few are arbitrarily large loops, a few are just good synergy. All of these synergies are usable in Legacy, and are worth all of your consideration.
Azorios Guildmage + Training Grounds
Turn 1 Grounds, Turn 2 Guildmage. You now have a card that can tap down creatures for W and counter any activated ability for U. Legacy has a ton of activated abilities that are worth countering. Fetchlands, Wastelands, Tops, Vials, Sneak Attack, etc. For U, you have a repeatable Stifle effect that must be dealt with.
For W, you get a repeatable tap engine that completely shuts down aggro decks, especially those that do not rely on overwhelming swarms of creatures (those often featuring Rhox and Goyf).
While this is not an overwhelmingly powerful synergy, it is a nifty and useful one, and it fits neatly into UW decks that can otherwise abuse Grounds.
Feral Hydra + Training Grounds
Turn 1 Grounds, Turn 2 Hydra. I like to think of this combo as Tarmogoyf 2. For a little more mana investment than Goyf, you can quickly buff up Hydra to a higher p/t than Goyf can ever hope to reach. Yes, he suffers from a lack of Shroud, but given that you could effectively play 8 "Goyfs" (4 tarmogoyf, 4 hydra), you could easily overwhelm an opponent's removal. Moreover, this gives your deck something to do with their EoT mana. Got 1 mana open? Buff the hydra. Got 3? Buff him some more. Again, this is not a broken synergy, persay, but it is a powerful one.
Training Grounds + Paradise Mantle + Pili-Pala
On turn 3: Equipe Pili-Pala with Mantle. Tap Pala for 1 mana of any color. Activate Pala's ability for 1 mana (reduced due to Grounds), adding 1 mana to your mana pool. Tap Pala for 1 mana of any color. Activate Pala's ability for 1 mana to add an additional 1 mana to your mana pool.
This results in arbitrarily large quantity of mana on turn 3. The combo pieces cost 0, 1, and 2 mana each. 2 are artifacts, 1 is an enchantment. While 3 card combos are notoriously weak, this one has powerful potential (especially in tandem with the future combos i am about to discuss. A turn 1 Grounds/Mantle is extremely hard to deal with, especially if you are on the play, and ESPECIALLY with disruption backup. Tutors and Vial can guarantee a Pili-Pala drop by turn 3. Obviously you need something to do with this mana, but that should not be too hard to handle.
Moreover, once you get Mantle equipped (which admittedly is sorcery speed), your opponent cannot stop the infinite mana loop. All of the activates are either mana abilities or costs, none of which can be responded to. This gives the combo additional resiliency.
Training Grounds + Paradise Mantle + Patrol Signaler
Similar to the Pili-Pala combo. Equip Signaler with Mantle. Tap him for 1 white mana. Untap him using the white mana to make a 1/1 Soldier. Repeat over 9,000 times (or more).
Sure, your creatures don't have haste, but it is not too hard to figure out what to do with billions of Kithkins. You can use this ability at the end of your opponent's turn, if you are worried about mass board removal. Just like with the Pili-Pala combo, you have to worry about the sorcery speed Mantle attaching, but once you have that handled, your horde is guaranteed. Also like the Pala combo, the pieces of this combo are quite resilient. Aether Vial is again a necessity, in order to minimze the exposure and vulnerability of your creature combat pieces, which are clearly the most likely candidates for destruction or exile.
Training Grounds + Paradise Mantle + Knacksaw Clique
Probably the best of the Mantle combos. Pili-Pala requires a fourth card to use the infinite mana with. Patrol Signaler requires your horde to actually attack. Knacksaw Clique just exiles an entire library on the spot. Again, the opponent will be unable to respond to the ability activates, because they all involve either costs (untapping and tapping) and mana abilities. While the exile ability DOES use the stack, the COST for it does not. The same goes for the Mantle mana tapping, which also does not use the stack. Once Mantle is on the Clique, your opponents library is at your mercy (and at instant speed, for that matter).
The major downfall of this combo is Clique's cost. 4 mana is a bit too much for Aether Vial, and leaves you vulnerable to countermagic and removal before Mantle is ready to go.
That said, the abuse of tap/untap costs and mana abilities makes this a powerful and resilient combo, despite its supposed vulnerabilities.
Training Grounds + Izzet Guildmage + Manamorphose
Superior to the Desperate Ritual/Rite of Flame alternatives because Manamorphose draws cards. That means it can dig to your win condition (Banfire, for instance). Here's how the combo works, for those that don't see it.
Cast Manamorphose. With the spell on the stack, tap U to copy the Manamorphose. When the copy resolves, add UU (or UR or whatever else) to your mana pool and draw a card. With one of that mana, copy the initial Manamorphose again. Draw and add more mana. Repeat until you have your win condition and enough mana to kill.
This is an outstanding combo, because all of the pieces can be used at instant speed. Turn 1 Aether Vial. Turn 2 Training Grounds. Sometime on Turn 3, whether your turn or your opponent's, Vial in the Guidlmage. Without passing priority, immediately copy the Manamorphose. Unless your opponent has a Sudden Shock, they are not going to be able to respond to all of the copies, and they will succumb to your X spell.
In my opinion, these combos are viable in Legacy. They involve 3 cards, but they have innate resiliency that makes them feasible in the format. The components are extremely cheap, and in many cases, the comboing process cannot be responded to or stopped. In the case of the untap creatures, you can run redundant combos in your deck to improve your win percentage.
One might ask how this card fits into preexisting decktypes. The answer is simple: it does not. Many decks cannot effectively use Training Grounds to its fullest extent. Decks that want to abuse Grounds needs to add the requisite creatures. This thread is as much a call for new decks as it is a call for card discussion.
So, with that all said, what are your thoughts on this card? Discuss the card itself, and perhaps the suggested combos I have thought of and compiled here. This card has a lot of Legacy potential, and I would love to see the creative process begin now.
-ktkenshinx-
EDIT: Additional combos not mentioned
Feral Animist + Training Grounds
1 mana: 4/1
2 mana: 8/1
3 mana: 16/1
4 mana: 32/1
Kaho, Minamo Historian + Training Grounds
CMC 3 instants now cost 1 mana to play. Same goes for CMC 2 instants.
By "innate resiliency," you mean dies to pretty much every form of removal ever, right?Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
Seriously though, these combo pieces suck on their own, and require 3-4 pieces to win. Painter-Stone takes only two cards to win, are colorless, and are tutored by the same cards. The interactions that don't win are just cute.
This is a card for the crap rares bin.
no Kaho, Minamo Historian,Umbral Mantle or Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero? How disappointing.
At least Feral Animist is a 2-card combo that can win, though it's still effectively higher CC than Painter/Servant.
Seems like the sort of thing that could break open one day.This is a card for the crap rares bin.
I am going to ignore the un-constructive sarcasm, as it is neither supported with evidence, nor helpful to the thread.
Painter and Grindstone have vulnerabilities that these combos do not. The most notable of which is responding to a Grindstone activation by killing the Painter, or destroying a Grindstone before the Painter hits play. The latter is less important, because maindeck Artifact removal is quite rare. The former, however, comes up a lot.
While these combos are 3 card combos, they do have more resiliency than your negative post would suggest. The Paradise Mantle combos have difficulty attaching the Mantle without the creature getting removed. That said, there is only a 1 turn window in which to do so. An EOT Vial of Pili-Pala sets you up for a main-phase win. Painter-stone, on the other hand, requires as little as 6 mana to win on the same turn: 3 for the Painter and 3 for the Stone activation. I am not saying this is a bad combo: that would be stupid. I am saying that the Training Grounds combos have a smaller window in which you can deal with them.
The same goes for Manamorphose and Guidlmage, except this is an even more resilient combo. Unlike Rite of Flame, Manamorphose is an instant, which means you can win at instant speed. Unlike Desparate Ritual, Manamorphose actually draws into your win condition, which means you don't have to worry about having it in hand. When you couple these facts with the CMC of Guidlmage (2) and an Aether Vial, you have an extremely resilient combo process (albeit one that involves 3 cards). So long as you have at least one U available, you can repeatedly copy the Manamorphose in response to any Swords/FoWs, etc. Sudden Shock is obviously game over for the poor Guildmage, but this is a seldom used card: according to DeckCheck, in 2010 only one placing deck actually ran the Shock maindeck, and only 10 ran it in the sideboard.
-ktkenshinx-
I'm going to have to agree with Roman Candle. Three card combos just aren't good enough in Legacy, especially when one of the pieces is a creature. This card does seem very good with Rebels, as Heartstone is good there, and this is a giant improvement over Heartstone, but they're so far from competitive at the moment that I doubt this makes them playable.
Maybe, but I for one am still going to pick up a set of them.
They might only see play in some of my casual decks, but maybe it will actually become good and I'd rather have a set for cheap now then have to pay a lot for them.
Also, seeing SCG is already sold out on their pre-orders for this card, I think there might be more to it then we see right now.
4th: 293/363
5th: 82/434
Vi: 159/167
Wl: 100/167
Te: 318/335
St: 132/143
Ex: 136/143
US: 235/335
3/8 Sealed boosters
1/8 Sealed boosterboxes
Only 632 cards left for a full Korean set, over 69% done (last update 05/27)
Always looking for sealed product!
I like the Izzet Guildmage. *shrug*
Slap on some Scepters, Bolts, even the combo with Reset, countermagic, etc.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Anything that drastically changes the way cards behave and has basically the perfect casting cost
has the potential to be broken in Legacy.
I don't see it yet, though.
I was ready to cautiously suggest that this card had potential until I went back and read the bolded clause.
As Forbiddian suggested, anything that's costed cheaply and has a unique and powerful effect can potentially find a home, especially as the card pool continues to grow. But I don't see anyway to break it yet, especially because such a deck would require including cards that would be extremely suboptimal without Training Grounds in play. Seems a lot like Aluren in that regard.
Aluren is a two-card combo with Recruiter though. Two card combos are much more feasible in Legacy.
That being said, since when is Aluren good?
EDIT: That being said, I find the argument that Training Grounds combos are more resilient than Painter-Stone to be ludicrous. All the Training Grounds combos die to removal and Grip the same way Painter-Stone does, and Painter-Stone too comboes out in one turn.
I'm pretty sure you can fizzle the Guildmage combo at instant speed, because you have to let one copy of Manamorphose resolve, and the opponent can respond at that point. Feel free to correct me, but even if I'm wrong its still a three-card combo compared to Painter-Stone's two.
Although it pains me to agree with Forbiddian, I think he has summed it up perfectly. I have a gut feeling that someone could break this card, but it sure hasn't happened in this thread yet.
Maybe it could play a support role in Mono Blue... (LOL) Morphling's abilities are much cheaper now... oops, I'm drunk.
In all seriousness, we really need to scour creatures with activated abilities; however, I can't think of a single one that I've said, "If only that cost one instead of three."
Soulbright Flamekin produce 8 mana on turn 3 with this card.
Planar Guide gets to be Amazing! I really like the interaction here!
Avenger en-Dal makes every card in your hand be a psuedo StP.
It just screams Hammer Mage/Gorilla Shaman/Plaguebearer/Goblin Settlers. I'm not sure if it'll work that way though...
Does this decrease evoke costs? Cause that makes mulldrifter way better.
If it applies to morph costs, I can think of several amazing uses.
But so far, nothing's too broken to warrant inclusion in any modern archetype, as far as I can see.
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
I'm going to try to be a little more constructive:
Q: Assuming there's a viable card for training ground to combo with, what does it probably look like?
A: It's a card with an activated ability - probably not a tap ability - that costs 3 mana, two of which are colorless costs 2 or less to cast, and wins the game by itself.
Feral Animist is close - and currently the most plausible combo partner with Training Grounds. Since he's got to land damage to win, this is not as reliable as Painter/Servant.
There are a bunch of ways to get 3 damage for 1 mana, but that's just not fast enough for legacy.
Izzet Guildmage is cute, but the requirement for extra cards is a little onerous, and the synergy with Ponder and Gamble is one of those cool things to be wary of.
Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't this with a Masticore in play basically mean you could do infinite damage to every one of your opponents targetable creatures? Also, it would be very hard to kill.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
It says it can't reduce it below 1. Thus why the card isnt as good as it could be.
Ah crap. I misread the caveat. I was thinking it said you couldn't reduce the cost to -1, ie less than zero. My bad. Yeah, I guess that would be a pretty broken combo then, huh?
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
I'm with the team that goes against any combo where the card sucks by itself. Granted, I am one of those people who even refuses to play Aluren and always have because it's so bad without a creature obviously.
Grindstone painter at least is good if you only have one of the cards. Painter tends to be decent because it's played in a deck that abuses the crap out of REB's and pyroblasts. Grindstone does kind of suck, but at least it has the use of messing with countertop badly.
So I look at it as "what does this card do for me if I topdeck it?" Unfortunately, the answer is, not much of anything. Legacy is all about who can do the more broken trick first. There needs to be a pretty amazing como with this card to be called decent. Tapping a bunch of creatures or even making a pile of mana early isn't all that hot. It would be amazing if the cards did something interesting by themselves, but in this case they need to flat out win or at least cripple the other person if I'm putting a useless card in my deck.
I do have to admit the super stifle isn't horrid, but we need more than that to play it. Azorius isn't going to cut it on his own, though he's not bad. Training Grounds needs a busted trick, not a cool one to be playable. It's the only reason Grindstone and Counterbalance get played. How good is counterbalance without a top or brainstorms to rearrange that library. Not too hot. This is about the same thing except you don't even get the half usefulness of accidental counters.
Sorry, but it's probably how this card will turn out unless someone finds the amazing "win" combo.
I like new ideas like this that make fun and maybe even decent decks, but anything that is a 3 card combo is suspect. My main reason for thinking so is that you could just take any 2 card combo that is vulnerable to something, then add a card (say, Orim's Chant) to the 2 card combo, call it a 3 card combo, and it's perfectly protected. The difference is that most 2 card combos cost more mana, but the real problem with this idea is that like everyone else said, the cards are bad on their own. Imagine playing Feral Hydra in Legacy without the enchantment to help him. It would be laughable. The enchantment does absolutely nothing without a creature, and I guess the best part of most of these combos is that Paradise Mantle at least does something to make your strange creatures useful in the early game.
I want to like it, but I'd rather just try to break some other fun cards in ROE.
I like the card, so I looked over very single creature with an activated ability on MTGO and found pretty much nothing. The best interactions (apart from the ones already noted here) seem to be casual land only. Like:
- Magus of the Candelabra (Candelabra of Tawnos as a 1/2 dude for G) will net you 2-5 mana per activation.
- Copper Gnomes and Scarecrone can cheat artifacts onto the battlefield easier.
Those sort of minor things.
3/10.
I've seen much better trolling. I give you a 3 because at least a few people are discussing this as if it were a serious consideration for Legacy. You should've thrown a "Fresh Prince" in somewhere.
The rest of you ought to be ashamed for falling for this. Are you seriously so desperate for something new and exciting in the format you'll discuss 3 card combos necessarily involving the easiest to answer permanent class in the game as if they could ever be viable? Especially when they require running cards that are just terrible on their own?
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