This makes me laugh because I think it's very untrue. This forum is extremely accessible -- it has major threads on practically every major archetype that are easy to find. Compare this website with www.themanadrain.com, the main Vintage portal, and that is a much more aristocratic format.Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
I really don't see how someone can say that they think Legacy is aristocratic online. How can that be true? You can't find decklists easily?
No, what he means is that the players are cliquey douchebags.
I personally haven't found this to be true - every format has people like that, and Legacy doesn't seem to have them in higher numbers than Standard or Extended. If anything, Standard is worse because of all the people who read the articles written by the pros online and then think they're hot shit because they can regurgitate LSV or Chapin and therefore have everything figured out.
The online Legacy community is small enough that the really vocal people stand out a lot more, but if you're just cruising around looking for lists to netdeck, it's pretty easy to ignore them. I mean, there is always deckcheck.net.
I hate to say it -- but isn't the PTQ community must much worse? People have an attitude about who's good and who sux, etc.
I haven't found it to be the case at all in Legacy that players dismiss deck ideas as stupid. So many decks are viable in legacy, probably far more than in any other format I've ever played.
If more places ran Legacy events, I'm sure the price would be a little easier to swallow. I know I wouldn't have too much of an issue with cost (for example a budget Enchantress list that doesn't lose much at all costs 200), if there was a place by Denver or Boulder that ran consistent Legacy events. When I play limited around here, half the people don't even know what Legacy is...
...that's basically what I said.
Legacy is still mostly regarded as a casual format in comparison to Type II and Extended, which have lots of high-level marquee events. The recent run of SCG tournaments is beginning to change this, but without a qualifier season it probably won't get as bad as Standard and Extended and their associated Qualifier Crawlers.
"A little skewed"?? Try highly misleading. Comparing low end Legacy prices with median Standard prices and concluding that the prices are the same is like comparing a US fission bomb with a French fusion bomb and concluding that France has the more dangerous nuclear arsenal. Even at the prices you listed, how is a difference of a third more not significant? Also, the variance on prices is more pronounced in Legacy. The difference between low end and high end is much more greater than in Standard. This means that the difference from.
The prices are surely significant, but its also important to recognize that Standard is a rotating format and Legacy is not. I've had the same deck since 07. Its an investment. If magic is just a side hobby, its better to play Legacy where your deck won't be illegal in a year. If you play all the time, maybe Standard is a better choice since so many more people play it.
EDIT:
Its also worth noting that cards in Legacy have been appreciating in value. I bought my LEDs for 20 back in the day. Now they are worth 50. It really is an investment.
My experience is that people who are AIDS are generally douchebags regardless of format, but that the people who are legitimately skilled are often pretty pleasant people. I can think of a lot of mediocre players who are assholes in both formats, but I rarely encounter someone who is both very good and a total jerk.I hate to say it -- but isn't the PTQ community must much worse? People have an attitude about who's good and who sux, etc.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
good. I heard you like dick.
anyways, the threads up to 5 pages now of everyones "opinion" which is virtually the same as everyone elses, about a "rumor" posted on another website. is everyone here really that bored or do yall just love melodrama ?
I heard you like warnings. Three warnings = a site ban.
-PR
Last edited by Peter_Rotten; 04-19-2010 at 09:24 PM.
The first part of your statement is technically correct but wrong for all intents and purposes. Name one current tier 1.5 or better deck that is is substantially similar to a deck that existed 3 years ago. The sets may not rotate, but the field changes and tier 1 decks become obsolete and unplayable. Powerful cards are invalidated by power creep, both via functional upgrades in new sets and a changing metagame.
Morphling was once seen as a card that would never become obsolete. So was Stroke of Genius. Nimble Mongoose was the biggest pillar of aggresive U/G creature bases, usually backed with Werebear and Quirion Dryad. All of these powerful cards are totally unplayable now.
I designed and built two serious tier 1 decks in the fledgling days of Legacy. San Diego Zoo T8'd the first Legacy worlds and UGBW Landstill T8'd the second. Neither of those decks is even close to competitive in today's Legacy.
So please don't use the "Legacy doesn't rotate" speech, because it's a fallacious argument.
Also, and I went over this in one of the reprint threads, but the growth of card values over the last 10 years is totally unsustainable. Goods cannot see 1000% and more inflation in a mere decade and be expected not to eventually readjust. Your LEDs will eventually crash. Probably not until Magic dies, but long before that, they'll stagnate, just like P9 and other vintage staples have done.
Edit: for substantially similar, let's use the criteria of over 80% of the same cards and the same win con.
I was showing that the low-end Legacy prices were comparable to the mid-range Standard prices. That means players who are involved in Standard, for the most part, have the economic means to play Legacy but just choose not to for other reasons.
Alternately, we can revise the decklist prices to fit the TCGPlayer medians for the Legacy decklists. This will lead us to an entirely different, but still highly disturbing, conclusion.
Merfolk: 636.91
Goyf Countertop: 1435.93
Zoo: 1002.24
Threshold: 768.335 (unable to find reputable information on this through the TCGPlayer database)
Goblins: 267.77 (same as above)
ANT: 1126.17
Format Average: 872.89
Goblins and Threshold are probably considerably higher, given that all the other prices went up on the TCGPlayer database from the MTGS thread. That means the format average is in excess of 900 dollars. 900 dollars. That is a ton of money. The difference between Jund at 300 and Merfolk at 600 (to completely ignore Countertop at an absurd 1400) is monumental.
If we are to use this data, which I am perfectly happy with using, then we must reach an entirely different conclusion. As said before, it is still quite disturbing.
Conclusion
People are actually prohibited from Legacy because of costs
Sure, we can make arguments all day about how players end up spending more than 1000 dollars in two years on Standard decks, or how 1400 is a good investment in a deck that never gets old. But the perceived costs of spending 1400 dollars in one fell swoop on Magic decks are totally outrageous. People just do not want to spend that much money on Magic cards. I am totally fine with making investments in Magic decks, as are most players who frequent this site. But try and convince new players to make an investment, especially players coming from Standard and Casual where this "investment" concept just has no meaning.
A new format would solve this problem, however much we Legacy players might despise it.
-ktkenshinx-
I've been playing SI for 3 years. Sure I've changed my build a little but the most I've done is pimp out the cards that were already in it with foils, and I changed the MD a little (its 80% the same, same win con). I spent $150 on a cheap version of it, and won the rest of it with store credit. Since then, I bought the rest of the cards to change it to Pact SI with store credit (with a few exceptions). So its pretty much costed me $150 and a few fun FNM's. I consider SI to be Tier 1.5.
Sure this isn't the case with every deck but most of the staples remain the same, namely fetch and dual lands. Standard only has staples until the rotation.
Excellent piece of information.
About the onetime expense vs. over time: Recently I did a quick mental addition of how much I spend on magic cards, per year. After adding up all the little draft expenses, prereleases, tournament fees, it came to 500$. I was stunned: I had no idea how I got that money, and why I was spending it. The answer came shortly after: it was fun, and it never seems like that much spread out over so long.
I have a feeling that this is one of the two reasons that Standard is so alluring to new players. The first reason is that everyone plays it, the second reason is that the perceived cost is so low.
People could spread the cost for Legacy out over a long period of time, but for that whole time they would be left with nothing. This is why it is hard to get into Legacy without a friend to help you - it took me like 6 months to build a semblance of a deck, and that was after just playing limited and trading around.
Legacy is expensive, and not expensive at the same time. If you don't understand that, please reread the above post and this one.
Yes, cuz there are 0 copies of those cards online already. I was referring to MTGO, where MM is going to sell like 100 packs....
This whole thread, regardless of the validity of the post, can be summed up very neatly: All Eternal formats without Force of Will will fail.
While there is no reason to take this seriously, the concept is worth considering.
Legacy 2.0 could start post revised and exclude the dual lands along with a few other rarities and become much more accessible, on the level of extended.
Otherwise we may be at peak capacity - not necessarily a bad thing but there will be no Legacy pro tour under the status quo.
Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.
Well said sir.
If it doesn't have FoW, then Dark Ritual will be banned. If Dark Ritual is banned, storm combo will suck. If storm combo sucks, people will play Gush+Tog, which in turn will lead to Gush banned. Anyways, in the end you will end up playing twenty slightly different versions of random junk+Thopters.
Needs more goyfs.
+1This whole thread, regardless of the validity of the post, can be summed up very neatly: All Eternal formats without Force of Will will fail.
Well, so far we only got three "eternal formats" and Vintage (with Force of Will) has already failed, while EDH is doing okay at the moment and you can't run more than one Force in the format. So, your argument right now is a bit spurious.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote