7 hate cards is a little more than I'm willing to dedicate to anything in my board. To be honest I'm more about finding answers to problems more so than stopping a deck. Granted there are becoming more and more decks based around a single attack strategy but they all (usually) operate differently than the next deck. But, I'm not trying to play a card that narrowly solves 1 or 2 decks, I'm trying to play a card that has multiple uses against many decks.
I guess that the best way to explain this further is to say, "I have a Primal Command in my main and, I've used all combinations of it's modes to win."
It does hit me in the nuts quite hard as well (Planar Void), but I've enjoyed running it. Yes, Tarmogoyfs really just get infinitely bad, and as sad as it is, I side them out at times. Wheel does seems like a decent option though, I'll most definitely give it a try. Only problem I'm thinking is possibly being too slow. These days, I never see Dredge go off Turn 1 anymore, so I doubt the concern is warranted. Thanks very much for the suggestion!
With regards to the previous poster, I understand 7 slots is quite a lot. I understand your trepidation in running 7 pieces of grave-hate. But, the newest matchups that are a real pain to win are 43-Land, Reanimator (not necessarily a pain to win for this deck, but just generally speaking), Dredge, Survival, etc. I honestly HATE Dredge with a passion, and I really hate losing to it. I'd rather pack the hate and crush a few key decks (forgot Aggro Loam, so that too hates grave-hate) rather than adding in 3 slots to patch-up a matchup somewhere else.
What do you run as a sideboard? Mine seems pretty standard, but I'm curious as to what other people are running (obviously if you've posted recently, I've seen it, but if you haven't, I'd love to see what everyone seems to be running in common as of late).
Thanks!
-Matt
I play a much more controlling version than any posted on here. I honesty feel that 4 goyf and 7 natural order are enough beaters. I feel that beating down with knights ect. is a slower kill a lot of the time. Not to mention by switching the beater to guys that maintain card advantage deed becomes a blowout every time and its not like your killing your hard earned board advantage by deeding away all your own guys. Also revolving around natural order and not lower costed beaters takes you out of counter balance range. I might play fissure in the side to have a an answer to iona set to black but natural order into niboshiba can easily race it. I feel pretty confidant in the list as it is my the main deck I play if anyone else plays a more controlling list I would be intrigued in seeing what you think because my zoo matchup is quite solid as is the counterbalance one. Also i noticed that red is not popular splash recently but i would attribute that mostly to the quality of the g/w beaters as red is a quite strong as a control option.
Burning Rock
4 birds of paradise
4 goyf
4 wall of blossoms
3 eternal witness
1 prog
1 phantom niboshiba
4 duress
4 therapy
3 natural order
2 terminate
4 deed
4 burning wish
3 treetop village
4 foothills
4 g/b fetch
3 bayou
3 tiaga
2 forest
1 m
2 swamp
side
3 finks
4 leyline of the void
1 sadistic sacrement
1 natural order
1 firespout
1 primal command
1 pulse
1 thoughtseize
1 damnation
1 boiling seas
@sdematt:
My sideboard is a little unconventional:
3 Extirpate
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Armadillo Cloak
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pernicious Deed
It's still currently under construction. There's so much I want to fit in my sideboard, but there never seems to be enough space.
sdematt - I don't really classify my list as a Rock deck (more Rock styled) but the boards are similar.
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Choke
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Leyline of the Void
I'm constantly tweaking and testing but it's been getting there more often than not. I may also test Child of Korlis over Bog but that'll be a while before that happens.
Me and my teammates are slowly building this deck and I just have a few questions particularly the BG build, as this is the build we are more leaning to base our Rock deck.
1. What are the advantages/disadvantages between BG and BGW Rock?
2. What is the ideal BG Rock build in a meta dominated by Merfolks and Goblins?
Thanks in advance!
I can't speak in it's entirety but from what I do know,
1) The BGW version gains things like Vindicate, Swords, Knight... Those cards while not all amazing are still some of the better cards in the format. No they're not Progenitus but they do solve problems (which is the general sense of the rock) and create questions for your opponent to answer. The issue is usually the land-base at that point. BG has a more stable base and can play a more focused plan. It allows for easier fixing and more slots in the land to be adjusted. It also allows for more color-intense spells. Deciding on which to play is a mater of style.
2) One with a lot of removal. Fast targeted is better since you can kill things like Lackey and lords to slow them down. Your creatures are usually more powerful than theirs. If your meta lacks black critters I would even suggest vendetta (just got reprinted) because you'll lose about 2 or so per use against these decks.
I was watching the rock lists on deckcheck when I saw this list, a really nice list...
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Natural Order
1 Worm Harvest
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Swamp
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Deathmark
3 Choke
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Bojuka Bog
I really like the progenitus because it's a win against some decks that don't excpect it...
It's like a surprise effect :P
You also have mass-removal and card adventage from confidant
I didn't tested it yet or something but it seems really nice.
What do you guys think of it?
well actually i really do not like NO / Progenitus, sure it wins you games, but afterboard the oponent will have solutions against it if not allready preboard, it may just be my opinion but i will not play NO / Progenitus, since its 1) not my style, 2) i think the rock is not the deck that uses it the best, meaning can't protect it if opponent comes up with a solution, and using progenitus is meant to kill (allmost) for sure with it
the deck which actually uses progenitus a lot more efficient is countertop / bant, which can speed up into progenitus, has enough creatures where you do not care if they die, and can protect it with countermagic
well yes your build is specifically adapted to have a better use of Natural Order/Progenitus, but, if you do not draw into it, i would say, a conventional/non-progenitus build would have the upper hand over you, by just deeding away your creatures so you wont be able to sacrifice any for Natural Order
Thanks for your time. How about this build?Originally Posted by damionblackgear
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills (or any green fetch for that matter)
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
2 Forest
_____
20
Creatures
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Nyxathid
_____
17
Non Creatures
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
_____
23
SB
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Choke
2 Extirpate
I like your list the best of the ones recently posted. Burning Wish is beastly, giving you lots of options. I think you try to give yourself too many options though. I'd cut the wish board down so you can fit in some anti-storm hate. You are too slow for x8 Discard to get there against most combo. 7 Natural Order is certainly scary though, not to mention you can find board sweepers with it.
Thanks for your comments. I agree that the whishboard could be cut down a bit but i dont know what to cut as I like having a solid hate card for every major matchup. A agree that my plan vs combo which is basically try to wish for sadistic after turn one discard isnt that sound. The only thing i can think of as an obvious cut from the board would be damnation. I also could pull the finks as my aggro matchup is decent but that may not be the best idea. What combo hate would you suggest as thorn, 3sphere, and chalice all seem not optimal in my version.
I wouldn't cut Damnation. Its another sweeper, and it looks like sometimes you will need 2 with Burning Wish. Its also your only out to Progenitals besides finding your own NO.
Your list already looks great against aggro. Is finks really necessary? I know he gains life and chumps twice but you have 8 sweepers, 2 targeted removal, and 4 Therapy.
I like your Sacrament plan against combo. Its actually not a bad strategy after Burning Wish. I'd go with Thorn, as you should be dead before 3sphere hits (though occasionally you might play it turn 2 with BoP). Turn 1 Duress, Turn 2 Burning Wish/Thorn isn't that bad. If you can get some other stuff online then after like more discard, and press at the life total, conventional ANT builds will roll over and die as they need their life as a resource to draw cards (unless they IGG loop instead). Its a bad matchup for you in general but I think x3 Thorn from the board would it help it out.
Also, how is your Ichorid/Reanimator matchup? In Reanimator, Innocent Blood > Terminate.
I like the list but it seems like you're trying to be both Rock and Eva Green at once. I can't knock the idea since my list plays like 5 different decks depending on the draw, but... You have to be able to make it work. I'm not a fan of Nyxathid, or any situational creature either. I know TS has power but I don't like his casting restriction. Honestly, I would play Bitter Blossom and 2 Jittes in his place and just go the Eva Green route with this idea.
It seems like it would be stronger for this thought pattern.
Last edited by damionblackgear; 04-20-2010 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Spelling Error
It looks like a worse Eva Green.
BGW gives you more control options in Swords/PtE and Vindicate and another aggro option in Doran. It also lets you play Knight of the Reliquary for land tricks- which in my opinion should be run with wastelands. This however screw you over against even little amounts of LD, since youre running 3 colors, theres atleast 2-4 cards your running that are have BB or GG in them and you have 3-4 wasteland.
BGW tends to be slower.
White splash also give you access to Loxodon Hierarch and opens up your sideboard to include Orim's chant etc etc.
BG is more streamlined and a lot less vulnerable to disruption.
Vendetta really isnt that great.
In BG removal is often, but not limited to, [card]Smother[/card], [card]Diabolic Edict[/card], [card]Shriekmaw[/card], [card]Putrefy[/card], and [card]Maelstrom Pulse[/card]. Then for mass removal you have Deed and Damnnation, if youre running against faster hoarde decks [card]Engineered Plague[/card], [card]Punishment//Crime[/card], and [card]Infest[/card] can be good out of your SB.
[card]Darkblast[/card] is a good option if you're having problems with lackey and other 1/1s.
Basically you want to go heavy on the creature kill and lighter on the hand disruption against hoarde.
I have been playing with this list and I've been quite satisfied
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1/1/1 Forest,Plains,Swamp
=21
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
=20
Non Creatures
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umejawa's Jitte
1 Swords of Fire and Ice
=19
Sideboard
3 Choke
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
I might want to switch SoFI for some other equipment or remove Stoneforge mystics and add some other cards
I don't want to make sideboard agains combo cause I think it won't make that matchup that much better.
Diabolic Edicts are there for Reanimator and other aggro decks, Deeds are there for Stax and Enchantress and can be good against some other decks too.
I would want to hear some comments on my list and some comments about if I should take Stoneforge Mystics out and what cards should I take on those places
Throst54 & DCTopTeam - The explosive power of the straight BG list is what Makes it competitive. There isn't anything wrong with slowing it down but there are things that you begin having to compensate for, many of which you can't anymore. You can compare the 2 versions but, because they function drastically different (even if they share a lot of the same cards) your thoughts will go in many different ways than they would've with the other. Introducing a color presents an entire new slew of problems and solutions.
DC, the reason your deck is still an option is because you are running Dark Ritual to power out quick disruption, and you need a single green for 11 spells in your main. and another handful out of your board. I'm not sure, so I may be wrong when I Throst54 was talking about the GG in the list (I also may be blind). I think he may be on to something with land-bases. Your base is REALLY shaky. Wasteland may be too much of a strain on your deck.
Throst54 is correct when he said that vendetta is not a staple legacy removal spell. It's not good vs the most used creature in legacy (goyf) and it can't kill Bob. But, if you're going into a merfolk and goblins filled meta, it's still going to get the job done better than smother and edict as they will most likely have something for you to kill at the cost of little life or 2.
Throst54 is also correct, in some aspects, when talking about the BGW versions. The biggest difference is that most lists run +20 lands so Wasteland hitting one or 2 is not the worst thing to happen. It's not an auto-lose unless you kept a suspect hand.
To be honest I'm more of a fan of the BGW version but I don't like the aggro approach. It seems that the aggro is what people have been testing the most so it's doing better in tournaments. The BG version of Rock limits its self in more ways. It's not just the Swords and vindicate as removal or even Knight as utility for a land toolbox. Swords gains life against decks you need life, Vindicate beats all permanent problems that come your way, and Knight usually smashes through a goyf after being active for a single turn.
While there are other cards worth splashing for those seem to be the most common. The others seems to be optional or still in testing.
Then there is the next choice of do you go GWb or GBw. both present their own paths to go and can fight the hate (it's rock... +50% vs the field is the objective... still not attained). With a black reach you can play thing like stronghold, which has been a staple in the GBw Rock, and more intense black spells. The white version seems to bring in things like Elspeth, who, can win games all on her own. That's a matter of play style/skill/preference when you get to that point.
The best thing a Rock player can do is not get attached to anything. Some times the best option for the field isn't the best option for us. So, DC, try your list out, make some changes, try it again. You won't know until you test. Who knows, maybe you just broke the format and we're being to critical on it.
PS. Doran... *huh* is an option I think everyone should avoid with their Rock. That's another story though.
-----
First, what does everyone think of Inquisition of Kozelik? I'm looking at it as a replacement for Thoughtseze. It seems as though it would do just fine. I won't get to test it before the next big tournament but I would like to at least have opinions to think about.
Second, What do people think of Momentous Fall? It seems like an option to me. Testing will show though.
I like inquisition... i preorded 2 playsets suspecting to resell one once everyone realizes they need to own a set and they triple in price.
The only problems I see with it is that since rock is usually a mid-late game deck drawing it late game when you want to be ripping bombs from their hand is going to hurt... but then again when you're both in topdeck mode discard is the last thing you want to draw anyhow.
I think the better question is whether you will want to run it as a 4-of or as a split with thoughtseize and/or duress.
Momentous Fall looks amazing... but then again I really want to run it with [card]Phyrexian Dreadnought[/card], not in Rock... Harmonize would probably be better for rock.
FYI i completely agree about doran, but i knew it would be mentioned if I didnt. Adding white is for more control and answers.
I prefer BG because I like running [card]Veteran Explorer[/card] and [card]Cabal Therapy[/card]... Which while possible in the white splash is too 'messy' to be worth it often times.
I own all the cards to run whatever version I want, so I just constantly change my decklist depending on what im expecting to play- which is good in that if you play at the same tournament often people wont have a solid idea of what to hate against.
Just remember your goal is to have a good matchup against most decks, the Rock is a deck of answers.
I would probably run it as a 4 of (entirely cut thoughtseize). The ability to grab the force isn't that big when you just grab another blue card in hand and make them pitch something they wanted anyway. Mono Blue isn't that popular right now so they won't have an infinite supply of blue cards. Natural Order was another card I got asked about but I haven't had too many issues with ProG since I cut swords... it's an awkward build. I may actually be more GBw than GWb now...
I'm still a fan of Fall right now. The card seems like an advantage for this deck in every possible way. If nothing else that for the fact that it's an instant and can be used in, and around, more situations than harmonize. I guess it would be dependent on what the board situation is though. It would also depend on your list, too. If you don't have larger efficient creatures then drawing 2 or so cards isn't going to be as big as if you were drawing 4 or five. Non the less it still defends your guys from RFG effects (Swords).
I don't like Inquisition of Kozilek. There are just way too many cards in Legacy that it doesn't hit: Humility, Moat, Wrath of God, Fact or Fiction, Tombstalker, Force of Will, Natural Order, Dream Halls, Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils of Agony, Ill-Gotten Gains, Smokestack, Armageddon, Magus of the Tabernacle, Planeswalkers...
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