Card Advantage vs. Board Position

[perm]

I am going to make a pretty big claim here and say that Wizards is overestimating the power and value of card advantage. A simple way to show this is the power creep everyone knows and talks about. Since after Ancestral Recall was realized to be a massive mistake, the power of card draw/dig effects has remained relatively static. On the other hand, cards which establish a board position, such as creatures but also other permanents, have had an unsteady but strictly increasing power level.

I'll even argue that board position is a much more important determinant of winning than CA is. agree/disagree?

[stalkerzero]

I am going to make a pretty big claim here and say that Wizards is overestimating the power and value of card advantage. A simple way to show this is the power creep everyone knows and talks about. Since after Ancestral Recall was realized to be a massive mistake, the power of card draw/dig effects has remained relatively static. On the other hand, cards which establish a board position, such as creatures but also other permanents, have had an unsteady but strictly increasing power level.

I'll even argue that board position is a much more important determinant of winning than CA is. agree/disagree?

Card advantage nets you those cards that help establish board position. Sure the power level of the card advantage style cards has stayed pretty stagnant but they are still insanely powerful cards.

I'd probably venture to say that card advantage is one of the most important strategies in modern magic.

[Aggro_zombies]

I am going to make a pretty big claim here and say that Wizards is overestimating the power and value of card advantage. A simple way to show this is the power creep everyone knows and talks about. Since after Ancestral Recall was realized to be a massive mistake, the power of card draw/dig effects has remained relatively static. On the other hand, cards which establish a board position, such as creatures but also other permanents, have had an unsteady but strictly increasing power level.

I'll even argue that board position is a much more important determinant of winning than CA is. agree/disagree?

Board position is a form of card advantage.

Card Advantage, in the broadest sense, is seeing more cards than your opponent. All other things being equal, if you have more things in play, you have card advantage.

If you have better cards in play, it's still card advantage. Your better cards effectively blank his worse ones, and an irrelevant or blank card is basically null in terms of card advantage.

Card drawing is the most obvious manifestation of card advantage, yes, but it's not the only one. The best definition of card advantage, imo, is something like: "Gaining the most number of options by having more or superior cards relative to the opponent."

[TeenieBopper]

Board position is a form of card advantage.

Card Advantage, in the broadest sense, is seeing more cards than your opponent. All other things being equal, if you have more things in play, you have card advantage.

If you have better cards in play, it's still card advantage. Your better cards effectively blank his worse ones, and an irrelevant or blank card is basically null in terms of card advantage.

Card drawing is the most obvious manifestation of card advantage, yes, but it's not the only one. The best definition of card advantage, imo, is something like: "Gaining the most number of options by having more or superior cards relative to the opponent."

You said everything I was going to say without calling him an idiot. Kudos.

[perm]

allow me to rephrase for the neckbeards on board.... "non-board position card advantage"

[TeenieBopper]

You're still wrong, then. We're both playing a UGW thresh mirror. We're both deadlocked with Goyf on Goyf. I draw and play a Brainstorm before you do, thus seeing three cards before you do (yeah, this is card selection too, what the fuck ever). That's three more opportunities for me to get a second Goyf or a Swords. Card drawing gets you those board position card advantage cards faster.

You can say all you want how card drawing has gotten less efficient (Concentrate vs. Ancestral Recall), but in this format, it's pointless. You've got access to the most effecient card advantage engines in the game in this format. Efficient card advantage is efficient card advantage, regardless if it's drawing or board position.

[alderon666]

Board position is a form of card advantage.

Card Advantage, in the broadest sense, is seeing more cards than your opponent. All other things being equal, if you have more things in play, you have card advantage.

If you have better cards in play, it's still card advantage. Your better cards effectively blank his worse ones, and an irrelevant or blank card is basically null in terms of card advantage.

Card drawing is the most obvious manifestation of card advantage, yes, but it's not the only one. The best definition of card advantage, imo, is something like: "Gaining the most number of options by having more or superior cards relative to the opponent."

I disagree.

If and opponent goes Turn 1 Nacatl, Turn 2 Nacatl Nacatl he doesn't have ANY card advantage, he just had a much bigger board than you. Now if you cast a Perish, you're effectively trading 3 of his card for 1 of yours, there you have real card advantage.

A simple spell like Divination is card advantage because you get 2 cards losing just one. Just like Bloodbraid Elf, Sprouting Thrinax or Broodmate Dragon.

But I do agree with the OP, creatures are just getting CA built into creatures while draw spells are nerfed into oblivion. I mean just look at Vengevine, Ranger of Eos, etc...

[Aggro_zombies]

Trying to divorce card advantage and board position so you can compare them is pointless. The OP is making an arbitrary division just so he can complain.

Let's look at some simplistic scenarios here to illustrate this.

Each player has two Swamps and one Island in play. Each player is at 20 life. Each player has no cards in hand. Each player uses as much of his available mana on spells as he can each turn.

Player A's deck has forty Divinations in it. Player B's deck has forty Scathe Zombies in it.

Player B wins because he develops his board position, even though Player A will see twice as many cards as Player B does. Using the OP's definition of "non-board position card advantage," we can say here that board position spells are clearly much better than card advantage spells.

But this scenario is so unrealistic it hurts. Let's try for something still simple, but more informative. Again, each player starts with an Underground Sea in play. Each player is at 20 life. Each player has no cards in hand. Each player uses as much of his available mana on spells as he can each turn.

Player A's deck has ten Ponders, ten Scathe Zombies, and ten Underground Seas. Player B's deck has fifteen Scathe Zombies and fifteen Underground Seas.

Who wins? It's reasonable to say that, over a very large number of games, player A will win more often because the variation in his draws is reduced. The card advantage spells in his deck - the ten Ponders - allow him to have smoother board development than player B because he can better manage his resources. He can ensure that he regularly makes his land drops and, on average, will start playing Scathe Zombies sooner than player B, and can ensure a steady stream of them more regularly than player B. Sure, player B has the raw capacity to have board advantage, but he has no way to take advantage of it without some form of card selection or card advantage. Seeing only one card per turn when your opponent sees more means you'll probably have a harder time generating a dominant board position.

Also, OP, way to insult people for pointing out that your thread is pointless. Lots of people will want to have a discussion with you when you insult them for having a different opinion!

[Rico Suave]

You can't make cookies without both sugar and flour, so why try to talk about magic without both board and hand development.

This thread is like trying to say the sugar is more important than the flour.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I disagree with the initial statement.

Dark Confidant
Ponder
Ad Nauseam

Are the most powerful card draws after brainstorm, all of which have been printed somewhat recently. Heck even silvergill adept and stoneforge mystic are incredible draw card + bodies that were printed in the last couple years.

I'm really getting sick of these bitching threads. Everyone likes the good ol' days, but Legacy is Legacy. If you don't like it right now or are afraid that the old days of playing timmy decks are over then you might want to just atone with that fact and continue with your life.

For me legacy is still the most fun Magic format and the draw spells still out power the creatures, with only Tarmogoyf rivaling that. A game that I draw 3 Brainstorm is going to win me a large percentage of the time, if they print even more powerful card draw it would be ridiculous.

[Cthuloo]

The OP might make some sense if you rethink it in term of card advantage vs tempo advantage, T1 Nacatl, T2 2x Nacatl kills you by turn four, while T1 kird, T2 2x kird kills you by turn 5. Say you had a wrath of god in hand: in the first case you die before being able to use it to establish CA, in the second case, you live enough to use it and make 3x1.

So, maybe (it's a huge maybe) the OP wanted to underline how lately Tempo Advantage has become more important to achieve than Card Advantage in legacy, and this is due to the new cards in the last blocks (think also at PTE vs STP for example). Ok, in fact I'm not sure at all the OP was trying to say that, nevertheless I think it's an interesting concept. Nassif's countertop was all built around CA, packing Counterbalance, Confidant, Sower, Shackles. Modern builds of countertop play none of them, except for the namesake combo. Landstill, which made of huge late game CA his main strength, almost disappeared. It's something interesting to discuss, imho.

[jazzykat]

Aggro Zombies touched on it, but IMO the most important and only question is: Does this put me in a better position of winning relative to my opponent? Whatever, this is. The classic strategy of drawing more cards doesn't apply. Also, I would argue that board and card advantage are only 2 dimensional. How do you count decks like dredge and reanimator? There is also a time (temporal) value of your cards. i.e. Daze is awesome in the early game and sucks in the late game. Reanimate is great vs. zoo on turn 1, not so much by turn 4. How much is fireblast worth if your opponent is dead a turn earlier?

[Rico Suave]

Aggro Zombies touched on it, but IMO the most important and only question is: Does this put me in a better position of winning relative to my opponent? Whatever, this is. The classic strategy of drawing more cards doesn't apply.

How does the strategy of drawing more cards not apply? What if the card draw itself puts you in a better position of winning relative to the opponent? I know at least 2 respectable Landstill players who do well with the deck (1st/2nd frequently in tournaments) and the card that puts them in the best position to win is a draw spell.

[jazzykat]

How does the strategy of drawing more cards not apply? What if the card draw itself puts you in a better position of winning relative to the opponent?

It often does However, if all you do is draw cards (in an extreme case) then you lose. Drawing cards gives you a better chance for a threat or answer, but in the wider scope it's about increasing your options. You need to have the "right" cards to win drawing cards is a way, using selection (ponder, top), tutors, or redundancy are all methods of improving your chances of having the right mix.

[bleuisforwhimps]

The OP might make some sense if you rethink it in term of card advantage vs tempo advantage, T1 Nacatl, T2 2x Nacatl kills you by turn four, while T1 kird, T2 2x kird kills you by turn 5. Say you had a wrath of god in hand: in the first case you die before being able to use it to establish CA, in the second case, you live enough to use it and make 3x1.

So, maybe (it's a huge maybe) the OP wanted to underline how lately Tempo Advantage has become more important to achieve than Card Advantage in legacy, and this is due to the new cards in the last blocks (think also at PTE vs STP for example). Ok, in fact I'm not sure at all the OP was trying to say that, nevertheless I think it's an interesting concept. Nassif's countertop was all built around CA, packing Counterbalance, Confidant, Sower, Shackles. Modern builds of countertop play none of them, except for the namesake combo. Landstill, which made of huge late game CA his main strength, almost disappeared. It's something interesting to discuss, imho.

This.

Tempo>CA , see Force of will.

@ Phoenix ignition:I'd rather 'draw' 3 goyf ;)

my 2cents

[Phoenix Ignition]

@ Phoenix ignition:I'd rather 'draw' 3 goyf ;)

Yeah, that's probably the only creature which drawing 3 of him is better than 3 brainstorms in a general scenario, which is why I mentioned him. But also in a general (unknown opponent) scenario I would much rather have a starting hand of 3 Brainstorms. There are at least 25% of decks who don't mind seeing you drop a Goyf as they have dominant creature control or just a much faster strategy. Brainstorm allows you to filter exactly which cards of your deck you want to play, which may even be those 3 Tarmogoyfs.

[Smmenen]

I am going to make a pretty big claim here and say that Wizards is overestimating the power and value of card advantage. A simple way to show this is the power creep everyone knows and talks about. Since after Ancestral Recall was realized to be a massive mistake, the power of card draw/dig effects has remained relatively static. On the other hand, cards which establish a board position, such as creatures but also other permanents, have had an unsteady but strictly increasing power level.

I'll even argue that board position is a much more important determinant of winning than CA is. agree/disagree?

Not Wizards; players.

[chmoddity]

Legacy is the format of tempo, so if you are preaching to the converted here. Also, I think this

http://mtgsalvation.com/1166-whats-n...hings-are.html

is probably the article that brought this all to our attention. If you have not read it, it may help.

[TorpidNinja]

Not Wizards; players.

As I read it, his argument is that the design of card drawing has decreased in power over the years compared to the design of certain permanents.

[DragoFireheart]

Card advantage is simply an aspect of board advantage.

To compare them is like comparing the the stem of an apple to the rest of the apple.