Therein lies the rub. I only have 2 Chalices. And I'm hesitant to board in Pyrostatic Pillar vs. burn, for good reason.
*EDIT
It would be Elf-Combo, btw.
Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
If people are playing elf combo, I mean, if it's a significant presence, you probably have a fairly budget metagame. And budget metagames usually have stuff like mono black aggro, elves, white control decks, and of course our good friend goblins. By budget metagame I don't mean that nobody has duals, but that you aren't running into generic boring bant crap every round.
Chalice for sure! I agree with FunkyKun. It is also great against storm and burn, and can really screw canadian if you plant it just right. For a budget metagame, I recommend 4 maindeck gempalms and 1 maindeck sharpshooter. You might consider actually going Rg for Tin Street Hooligan (great against vial, and jitte, and the control players with artifacts designed to smash the budget decks). And krosan grip out of the side, because all those black players will be expecting goblins and elves.
I'd play something like this:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2-3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
3-4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
8 Fetch
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis (good, but 4 kinesis + 4 chalice might be too much)
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void (burn, elves, combo, possibly more)
SB: 3 Compost
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
....
Take from it what you will. I played in a budget metagame for a little bit, and I think Rg is the best choice for them because of grip + tin street, and compost IS a bomb against bad black decks, from what I've experienced. To me, budget metas usually consist of triba (goblins, elves, merfs), generic aggro (affinity, MBA), control decks designed to beat both (quinn, mbc), and janky combo decks that sadly beat all of them unless they shit on themselves (which is actually fairly common).
ETA: If you only have 2 chalices, I recommend making some friends to get more and borrow them. They are pretty important for what you are describing, IMO.
*EDIT* The below post is meant to be taken as surprise, not as snippishness. The point was that he was dead on, and I was attempting to make a funny comment. Epic fail on my part.
How did you know everyone plays black? Seriously, though, I've said this plenty: My metagame is casual players with cheap (as in majority of cards <$3) decks plus a few competitive players. One of those competitive players has every deck imaginable, so he's difficult to plan against, though he's played Zoo multiple times. He recently started bringing a friend, who plays Elf-Combo, and occasionally others come (Geddon Weenies, UW Landstill) but he, an Enlightened Tutor Control deck featuring Painter's Grindstone as the win-con, and Burn/SuiBlack, comprise my metagame. Not developed, certainly, but there are a few good apples. Sadly, I can't afford a G splash. I'd love to, but right now, I might just have to settle for Scrapper/Tinkerer.
Last edited by bakofried; 04-23-2010 at 06:04 PM.
Sorry if I came off as harsh. I did not mean to tell you what you should do. I should have rephrased it to be saying that this was my personal experience in a fairly budget metagame, and then you can take from that what you will, some ideas. If you don't want to splash green, I'd play 4 gempalms and 1 sharpshooter in the maindeck, along with pyrokinesis in your sideboard and 4 chieftains in your 75.
What? No, it didn't come off as harsh. Damn the interwebs for lack of proper tone! All of those suggestions are great. But, for lack of Duals (I won't start that up) would you suggest Tuktuk Scrapper or Goblin Tinkerer?
Btw, the "How did you know" comment was actually meant to be a joke, as you would be surprised how many people you find with 4 Sadistic Sacrament MD, along with Bad Moon, Vampire's Bite, and Unholy Strength. (funny story about that, PM me if you want to hear it)
*EDIT
I'm also confused, how is the above list 60 cards?
The list was no actual decklist. Its a list of possible cards you CAN play on the next tourney. How much salt you put in your soup is up to you (that's what he meant, I guess).
I have a question concerning Gem-Palm Incinerator:
Do you ever cycle it with no targets? I'm running 4 off of a suggestion from FoulQ, but sometimes they clog my hand. Right now it's a 4/2 split with Stingscourger, but I'm just wondering, do you cycle just to cycle, and if you do, how often?
yes. Only when I need something other than incinerator in my hand, like an actual threat or a board card, or even more often, lands..... But the situation does come up more often than you would think where cycling one away is a good choice...
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
I think running 4 gempalms is also sort of a playstyle thing.
Yeah that deck I posted is way over cards. Cutting more cards would be necessary. Piledriver, instigator, perhaps a gempalm if 4 isn't working for you, maybe the TSH or the sharpshooter if it isn't working out, etc.
A list I would play, considering you seem to be not liking the 4 gempalms,
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
8 Fetch
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Compost
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
My only concern with this list is only 5 removal spells (+ sharpshooter) in a meta with a good amount of creatures. But you do have x4 pyrokinesis out of the side.
Oh, and tell me if you ever end up playing affinity with TSH in your deck, because all the sudden he becomes this lovely god card that you always want to draw a thousand of. I got addicted to that TSH shit when I was testing my friend playing affinity.
Hah. And forget about the whole comment thing. To be honest, I think I might have posted that second comment when I was drunk, or um, something..
Actually, I was able to test against budget Affinity, back when I was just starting?
I had 4 Goblin Tinkerer's in the board. That MU was HILarious. He never had a land....
Anyway, I do want around 6 removal spells. I'm just debating between a 4/2, 3/3, or a 2/4 split between Incinerator/Scourger. The funny thing; no one runs Zoo, so both Gempalm and Scourger serve as t2 GOGO Lackey removal.
I have a tournament I will attend some time ahead, and was planning on the exact goblin decklist I would play. First, I expect around 20 players to show up, and the meta being variable, including these decks:
1-3 Canadian Threshold
1-3 Dredge
1 GW Midrange
1 GBW Midrange
1 Bant Survival feat. Iona-Retainers
1 Dragon Stompy (3 Firespout SB)
1 Zoo (3 Jitte SB)
1 Death and Taxes (2 Jitte Main, 3 Silver Knight SB)
1 Belcher
1 Enchantress
1 Merfolk / UW Counterslivers
1 Affinity
1 4 Color Landstill (3 Pernicious Deed Main, 4 Goyfs SB)
Aside from the Dragon Stompy Firespouts and the occasional Blue Blast, I expect no dedicated goblin hate (like Pyroclasms or Plagues).
Here's the list I've come up with.
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Soaring Seacliffs
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Warren Instigator
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Aether Vial
The only thing about the main I'm really debating are the Seacliffs. I am hoping on their surprise factor against creature-heavy decks, also there aren't many decks with vulnerable manabases for me to pray on. I know I'll miss the Ports in the Enchantress matchup, but if Seacliffs ends up stealing games by making Instigator connect against creature-based decks, it will be worth it. Your thoughts?
Also, I've decided on no Stingscourger mainboard, as there are no Dreadnaughts or Tombstalkers around. I believe that they are unrealistic as an answer against Iona.
Here's the SB I am considering:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Anarchy
1 Goblin Tinkerer
OK, here's the breakdown.
4 Relics are solid as an Thresh answer.
4 Ravenous Traps I believe are the best hate for dredge. I also have access to Macabres and Crypts, maybe I should use a mix?
I'm debating on the combo hate slot. I believe Mindbreak Trap is the best against Belcher, but Chalice can give me a fighting chance against Enchantress. I also have access to Pyrostatic Pillars and Thorn of Amethyst. Actually, is Thorn good against Enchantress?
2 Anarchy seem suited for the meta, as the answer Progenitus, Elspeth, KOTR, Enchatress' lock pieces and beat D&T by themselves.
1 Tinkerer as an out to Jitte and <3 Affinity.
I do not have a lot of matchup experience against Bant Survival, should I board relics as anti-Goyf and anti-Iona?
Also, do you believe Pyrokineses are required?
Mindbreak trap is good against belcher game 2, but once they know you play it, its fairly easy to dodge. Chalice is pretty brutal against them, but doesn't stop the t1 win game 3 and they can still go off through chalice @ 0. If the belcher pilot is decent, use chalice. If they are so-so, use mindbreak trap.
I always considered leyline of the void better agianst dredge because they run unmask and cabal therapy which shut down rav trap, but without splashing black leyline is definitely a little worse. Just keep in mind that game three any experienced player will know how to dodge the trap.
I'm surprised to see only 4 creature removal in such a creature heavy meta. I like to run 1 stingscourger main that can be tutored for when needed, but without reanimator in the meta I guess its excusable.
I personally like chalice over mindbreak trap because it can be used against more decks in the meta.
belcher:chalice-0
ad nauseam:chalice-1or0
enchantress:chalice-1or2
reanimator:chalice-1
As far as Iona goes, I think stingscourger should be played as well as relic for another option against her. Not to mention 1st turn lackey, 2nd turn stingscourger is money in the bank. Maybe -1 seige gang -1 gempalm +2 stingscourgers?
Also have you tested against zoo? I think pyrokinesis is needed in regards to that MU and can also be played against dredge. Maybe take out some graveyard hate, 8 slots is kind of overkill. In my experience with GYH I personally play crypts and macabres. With goblins, during the S.C.G. 5k L.A., I found that relics were too slow against dredge especially if they had l.e.d's. but on the hand they are really good against thresh. I really don't like ravenous trap because it's only good against dredge where relic, crypt, macabres are good against multiple decks.
2 anarchy
1 tinkerer (or try to maindeck)
4 chalice of the void
3 pyrokinesis
3 relics
2 macabres (or crypt)
Agreed. Pyrokinesis is also good against belcher when they go the goblins route.
have you tested the seacliffs much?
JonBarber what list do you run ...i'm trying to finalize my gobs deck and I want to see what players prefer.
@JonBarber
Thanks for the info.
The problem with chalice is that it does not stop t1 kills, and also it is possible for Belcher to go off through it set @0. I love how it works against Enchantress thought, stopping Grass is crucial for buying time. With my testing I have come to the conclusion that it is not worth it to board against Thresh, and there are no other decks vulnerable to it around.
First turn Lackey, second turn Stingscourger is hot, and that is the main reason why I am trying the Seacliffs in the deck. The thing is, other than Iona there are no worthy targets, the Gempalms work very good with the abundance of smaller creatures, and playing 12 cheater spells and 23 lands really gets the most out of Siege-gang. Seriously, he's the nuts. We all know that Goblins are tight on deck space, and I believe the Scourgers are not worth, with just 1 Zoo and little fatties.
I do not have plentiful match experience against Zoo, but I do not expect more than one Zoo player to show up to the event. I think that Pyrokinesis is not worth for boarding in many other matchups. However, you are right that 8 graveyard hate might be overkill. Still, with lots of Dredge, Thresh and an Iona lurking around I want to be sure. When I get to testing against dredge, we'll see what mix of hate is the best. Thanks for the tips.
I have played little games with them so far, with mixed feelings. Once I am finished with finals, I will thoroughly test with it and share my impressions. If you have any input on them, feel free to contribute. I know other guys have had some success with them.
Do you guys believe Thorn works against Enchantress? I know it is kinda slow against Belcher, but its a lot more definite...
I haven't tested it but I'm guessing it would really get annoying, especially if they are trying to pay for grass early on. Late game I don't really see it being effective when they have a billion mana and they drop moat but hopefully they are dead by then.
@ Funny Kun:
I wouldn't call that:
1 GW Midrange
1 GBW Midrange
1 Bant Survival feat. Iona-Retainers
1 Dragon Stompy (3 Firespout SB)
"Not many fatties". Stingscourger is a must-have, especially when you run into Iona with a MONO R list. You can simply keep your Vial on 2.
You can't rely on your Gempalm Incinerator, cause the Midrange decks use StP/PtE in resp so you dont have enough Goblins.
I would run Pyrostatic Pillar rather than Chalice. We had tis discussion like 2 pages ago, maybe our reasoning makes sense to you if you read it (I dont want to repost the arguments here).
You make some interesting points about Pillar, which I somehow managed to skip, although I am reading this thread. Too bad it is not as effective vs storm combo. With your help I have enough stuff to test, so when I have some testing-based conclusions, I will share them.
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