[SCD] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[keys]

I've never understood sower. For 0 mana more, you can play control magic and not attach the effect to a 2/2 body. The 2/2 body won't block for you for obvious reasons, and if you're control magicking a creature offensively, do you give a crap if you swing for 2 more? But you would definitely card if your opponent has any burn spell.

You can block with the charmed creature to trade with something else... and you still have a 2/2 flier.

[KillemallCFH]

I've never understood sower. For 0 mana more, you can play control magic and not attach the effect to a 2/2 body. The 2/2 body won't block for you for obvious reasons, and if you're control magicking a creature offensively, do you give a crap if you swing for 2 more? But you would definitely card if your opponent has any burn spell.

The general line of thought is that, aside from the nice 2/2 flyer you get, spells that hit him can actually be countered (unlike Krosan Grip).

[DragoFireheart]

I'm going to nerco this thread since Jace has been popping up in Legacy decks with some success:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ma...or&sort=format


Now that we have had some time to test him, how has Jace been treating people? Is he worth blowing 60+ dollars on him or are there better cards worth investing in for control oriented decks?

He seems like a solid choice to fight reanimator decks with his bounce. If nothing else, you can always pitch him to FoW.

[Mark Sun]

I had a chance to get him while he was still $45. So I'm okay with it.

I played him in UWr Landstill for a while, but like I've mentioned before, his abilities are potent, I just can't tell if he's win-more in that build. That said, I dropped Landstill all together so I guess I'll never find out for myself unless someone writes a tournament report

I'm looking to add him in as a 2-of in New Horizons; that whole nail-on-the-coffin thing seems good, as well as a way to apply more pressure and find a different way to win in case they force a crucial Relic/Crypt out against you.

[Edit] Basically, I'm saying that I agree he's good enough for Legacy, and deserves a spot in some builds.

[Genericcactus]

Jace is insanely powerful. If he manages to stick around for a few turns, he dominates the game by himself, allowing you to fateseal your opponent out of the match. The problem is, at 4 mana, what deck could really use him/want him? Landstill is the obvious answer, but it seems to be a dying archetype that I'm not sure even Jace can save. Also, would Landstill rather play an Elspeth or a Jace? Countertop is the other deck most likely to find room for Jace, but the spots in those decks are tight. I also can't really think of any matchups besides maybe Reanimator where I would rather have a Jace than a 10/10 Pro Everything.

In conclusion, Jace is definitely on the power level of the format, but I don't know if there exists a deck to best utilize his talents. Could he make MUC good?

[bowvamp]

Umm about that.. the 10/10 pro everything costs a creature. That's -1 card advantage for you sir (and +1 game win if it resolves). Completely different ideas. As much as I like jace's +2 and ultimate, he really shines with his 0 and -1. You get to brainstorm every time you play a fetch (if you even need to), and it only takes 1 loyalty to bounce creatures. That means that you gain back whatever tempo you may have lost playing him as soon as your opponent decides to play offensively (yeah, I know it won't be much of a surprise, but it's a nice little +). He also pitches to FoW if you draw multiples.

[Roman Candle]

As much as I like jace's +2 and ultimate, he really shines with his 0 and -1. You get to brainstorm every time you play a fetch (if you even need to), and it only takes 1 loyalty to bounce creatures.

Don't underestimate the +2 ability. I know I originally thought it was jank, but it can singlehandedly lock a player out of the game long enough to go ultimate.

[Genericcactus]

Umm about that.. the 10/10 pro everything costs a creature. That's -1 card advantage for you sir (and +1 game win if it resolves). Completely different ideas. As much as I like jace's +2 and ultimate, he really shines with his 0 and -1. You get to brainstorm every time you play a fetch (if you even need to), and it only takes 1 loyalty to bounce creatures. That means that you gain back whatever tempo you may have lost playing him as soon as your opponent decides to play offensively (yeah, I know it won't be much of a surprise, but it's a nice little +). He also pitches to FoW if you draw multiples.

If you are paying 4 mana for a spell, you want to win the game with it. Jace can definitely do this when it sticks, but not as consistently or in as many situations. If you are way behind, Progenitus digs you out of the hole, basically giving them one turn to race you. Jace doesn't have that impact. If you are behind it can be difficult devote resources just to keep Jace alive. Though brainstorming or bouncing a dude certainly helps, its not a guaranteed win in 2 turns.

Progenitus also gives you outs against some very tough matchups including Ichorid and Merfolk. Jace does nothing there.

[TheCramp]

this is interesting, from GP Madrid:

9th Place, Rafeal Del Riego
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

[Genericcactus]

this is interesting, from GP Madrid:

9th Place, Rafeal Del Riego
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

Frankly, that looks awful. What is the deck's game plan? Gain tempo with mana disruption and cheap counters and then...play 4 mana spells? This is like putting Jace is Canadian Threshold.

[whienot]

Actually, that deck has placed well in other tournies.

1st of 98

4th of 38

I was wtf, too, but it looks to have some value to it.

[Anusien]

I'm pretty sure Jace is one of the most if not the most important card in blue control mirrors.

[TheCramp]

I saw it as a mash up of Canadian Threshold and Landstill, which seems like a fine hybrid to me.

[godryk]

Frankly, that looks awful. What is the deck's game plan? Gain tempo with mana disruption and cheap counters and then...play 4 mana spells? This is like putting Jace is Canadian Threshold.

That sounds very narrow-minded.

I know this kid and I've seen him play, and that deck is simply awesome. There has been a Canadian-Faeries archetype performing very strongly in Italy and Spain for months, and that list is the latest evolution of this archetype. This doesn't come out of nowhere. The deck kind of disappeared as the year started in favor of NO Bant decks, but it's still played in Madrid. On the other hand, its UBR cousin is very popular now as well, and has become a good home for Jace too.

The deck aims to choke the opponent and then win the game. I think that dropping a Jace is very similar to finishing your opponent's life with a Mongoose. Both things seal the game. It isn't very intuitive nor logic, you have to see it in action. If you have started a war of attrition, Jace is the new coming of Jesus. If you have managed to cut him off a color, Jace makes sure he doesn't get it while you give him a constant flow of cards of that particular color.

With all respect, there are archetypes not designed by The Source's big names and idols that happen to be strong and competitive. Of course, the guy was lucky, but you need luck to end 9th in a 2225 people tournament, don't you?

[xTrainx]

My friend likes to play Jace in his CounterTop Thopter deck, and I've seen him fateseal his way through two different matches.

It is definitely an incredibly powerful card.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm pretty sure Jace is one of the most if not the most important card in blue control mirrors.

It's a large help but Tops really make him lose his effectiveness of the + ability. Granted they need a beater to actually kill Jace, but Jace is pretty awful against things like Vendilion Clique, or any creature if you are out of counterspells.

That said, he is ridiculously good and has won over half of the games that I was able to drop him in. Granted I play decks that can capitalize on a swiss army knife of control, and he probably can't just be thrown in anything blue.

[Anusien]

Jace is pretty impossible to kill because he protects himself, and he has the ability to mess with their draws. If they don't have Top and you can start fatesealing them, you'll win pretty quickly because he +s and stops them from drawing answers.

[pi4meterftw]

It's a large help but Tops really make him lose his effectiveness of the + ability. Granted they need a beater to actually kill Jace, but Jace is pretty awful against things like Vendilion Clique, or any creature if you are out of counterspells.

That said, he is ridiculously good and has won over half of the games that I was able to drop him in. Granted I play decks that can capitalize on a swiss army knife of control, and he probably can't just be thrown in anything blue.

WOAH he has won OVER HALF? If you win even half your games, this statement merely asserts that when you get jace in play, you win more against control than when you don't play jace.

You don't consider this to be obvious?

[bowvamp]

Umm, ok...
@Pi4meterftw
I see no obvious contradictions in that post.
@Phoenix Ignition
"if you don't play counterspells" <- Teh problem.
Jace draws you into counter spells. That's what he's for. That and preventing the other part of your statement from happening (them answering him). It's also funny you mentioned clique, cause his ability is quite reminiscent of that very faerie.
@Anusien
Very true.
@Genericcactus
If merfolk counters your 4 mana sorcery speed, which one is advantageous? Jace. The other just lost you a green creature.
To play natural order doesn't actually mean they have 1 turn to race you, it means they have 2. Observe.
First turn:
They're at 20 sitting across the board from Progenitals.
Second turn:
Progenital Smash! They're at 10 and sitting across the board from tapped progenitals. Assuming that they've already swung once or twice, anything with combined power >= 7 will pretty much win them the game regardless. It's not like they stop playing creatures.

Let's see what jace does. He bounces their creatures, and requires them to attack him if they don't want to lose serious tempo. He also draws you a card making him a total of 0 CA vs -2 CA when he hits the board. Yeah, umm 2 extra spells and a jace on the board vs. a progenitus on the board. And that's assuming they don't just edict, moat, meekstone, or ensnaring bridge your progenitus. Yeah, I'd say jace is a better finisher, but as the lists show that's beside the point.

[Phoenix Ignition]

WOAH he has won OVER HALF? If you win even half your games, this statement merely asserts that when you get jace in play, you win more against control than when you don't play jace.

You don't consider this to be obvious?

Bad troll is bad?

I said I win over half the games where he hits play. This statement had no clarifications on what deck it was played against. Obviously against decks with many creatures, like zoo, he is nothing more than a bounce spell and plus about 5 life (not terrible, but also not that helpful for a mana cost that should win you the game). Against control decks he does much better. Unprotected and without any other control magic he's not that great, other times he wins games. My statement was in no way ambiguous, and you're being a dick.

Go outside for once.

Jace is pretty impossible to kill because he protects himself, and he has the ability to mess with their draws. If they don't have Top and you can start fatesealing them, you'll win pretty quickly because he +s and stops them from drawing answers.

Manlands really take care of Jace, which a lot of blue heavy control decks have, but I totally agree that Jace is almost impossible to kill (in fact I've won games before where the opponent keeps swinging at Jace for over 10 damage instead of at me, buying me enough time to restabilize).