I actually think that a transformational sideboard is the route to go since "The Game" combo plan seems a bit fragile once everyone know that it's coming their way in game 2 and 3.
While they board in random hate against Emrakul/Gamekeeper/Graveyard hose, we could easily play out as a straight and simple rock deck, the gate, eva green or what not.
We have the shell to do so, or even add in Vampire Hexmage and Marit to the mix.
That's just my two cents... If I would take this deck for a spin, then I would've used a transformational sideboard to knock my opponent off their feet.
The deck idea seems pretty nice and I will sleeve up my own creation and try it out. It just might prove worth while.
The one thing I don't really understand is how a StP or Path can be a problem for this deck... How are ppl even playing this deck? You don't just play a Gamekeeper and then pass priority without a way to sacc him before the opponent gains priority.
That's why the deck should run Phyrexian Tower and Cabal Therapy at least, since sacrifice a creature is a part of the cost and can't be responeded to.
That's why alternatives as Cabal Pit (seen in one list) or other random junk just feels... bad. Other removal as Innocent blood and Smallpox works if they can't respond with StP, Path or any remove from the game removal.
I will just assume that people don't go off without a resolved disruption spell as Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy or the likes.
Yeah, hate cards like StP, Path, FoW etc are not a problem at all for this deck. I'm playing 3 Duress, 3 Thoughseize, 4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Hymn. There is no way my opponent is pulling something over on me. The only way they can is with a Brainstorm in response to these cards but it's still really hard for them to hate out the deck.
I can't decide on Sylvan Library vs. Phyrexian Arena vs. Worldly Tutor vs. Sensei's Top. All four cards have their own merits.
Here's what I noticed based on today. Zoo was the toughest matchup I faced today. It's a race, and I eek out a win only about 40-50% of the time but always with only just a couple of life total.
I've also rarely found Sinkhole or the whole LD strategy useful against Zoo.
I'm seriously considering switching to a less LD focused deck like this...
// Lands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Tower
// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Gamekeeper
// Spells
3 Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Duress
2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Worldly Tutor
// Sideboard
1 Gamekeeper
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Shriekmaw
1 Wispmare
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tombstalker
1 Maze of Ith
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Bojuka Bog
But if I do that, I feel like I should just go back down to 21 lands, and 4 Dark Rituals.
You have a point, but I've actually played several games today and the flexibility offered has been extremely neccesary.Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
Based on the games today, I've already used...
Gatekeeper vs. Progenitus/Emrakul
Shriekmaw vs. random Zoo creatures. Tarmogoyf could have also worked here.
Kitchen Finks vs. Zoo (This was my Nighthawk slot. I was one turn away from winning but needed to gain some life fast.)
Tombstalker vs. Fairie Stompy
Gadook Teeg vs. Landstill (I got rid of their StPs with Cabal Therapy, but Teeg forced them to use their FoW on that rather than on my subsequent Gamekeeper. Teeg also helps vs. Wrath of God and Natural Order)
Gadook Teeg and Canonist serve different roles. Canonist is better vs. combo.
Last edited by Jon Stewart; 05-12-2010 at 03:58 AM.
The thing I'm saying is that it should not ever be a problem to go off with a deck that packs X sac effects which cannot be responded to and Y sac effects that the opponent shouldn't be able to respond to due to the Z amount of discard the deck runs.
I would rather run a straight GB version instead of GBW, I never want to open up game losses to Wastelands or color screw... As I stated in my previous post, I really think that the transformational sideboard is the way to go, and you could even have some Wish targets amongst those cards. But then again... I might be wrong. I just like surprising my opponent, leaving him with his pants down...
Sinkhole feels out of place, randomly destroy a Land feels kinda "meeh" when we have all the other destructionspells going for us. It's enough with Wasteland and Smallpox, and for those who play Vindicate, it's more than enough.
I would play Wasteland, Smallpox and Maelstrom Pulse in a GB version and unlock 4 slots from Sinkhole to different cards.
There is nothing in the deck that precludes transforming it into an aggro deck post board.
Look at the creatures I run, everyone of them is extremely efficent, in addition to serving a secondary function.
I think you can find 10+ creatures in the sideboard against any specific matchup that would be potent and very strong against said matchup.
The only exceptions are Wispmare and Magus of the Moat.
I suppose I could cut the Magus of the Moat and perhaps the Maze of Ith for two additonal Tombstalker/Tarmogoyf.
So the deck would have 10-12 really strong creatures it can bring in against any matchup (siding out Emrakul, Gamekeeper and Living Wish) to transform this into an aggro deck.
For reference, those 12 cards that you can bring in against any matchup at all, to turn this into an aggressive deck would be...
2 Tombstalker
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Shriekmaw
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Tarmogoyf
Even if there are 1-2 creatures in that list that you don't feel are worth maindecking against a certain matchup, that still gives you 10 beaters.
For example, against slow control decks lite on creatures, I probably wouldn't bring in Gatekeeper or Shriekmaw, but I would bring in everything else.
Against fast aggro decks, I would probably leave behind Faerie Macabre and Gaddock Teeg, but I would bring in everything else.
I would opt for Abyssal Persecutor (since the deck already packs X sacrifice spells) but then again, it's a balance between flexibility and consistency.
I would probably run a sideboard option in the lines of:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Dark Confidant (we need the carddraw if we swap to a more Rockish deck)
1 Phyrexian Tower (Wish target if we need a unanswerable sacrifice outlet to go off).
as the Rock/The Gate core, and then add in some much needed spells/creatures into the mix.
I also noticed that you removed your list with "The Gate" transform board.
That main deck list seemed much better than the new The Gate/Eva Green main deck in your post.
I'll come up with my own list later, try it out and post it if it seems successful.
Yeah, it's by no means a bad strategy. Your opponent sides out removal for graveyard hate, and you side out your combo and bring in creatures not dependent on your graveyard.
I like it, but I'm really loving the Wish board as well. It has already gotten me out of so many jams.
I'm not sure which filter engine I want to go with, Sylvan Library or SDT? Which one is better?
Meh, I personally prefer the 2/2 split of Phyrexian Arena and Worldly Tutor.
Of those two choices, Sylvan Library is probably better, you only have to pay one extra mana once.
Someone brought up the possibility of playing a single Ancient Tomb in the board to Wish for when you are stuck at two land and need to cast a Gamekeeper. What do you guys think? Worthwhile or no?
What should I cut from my board for it? Tarmogoyf? I've used it once to cast on the same turn as I had 2 remaing mana only, only four cards in the yard and needed to hold off an attack asap.
God damn I wish I could play 8 Living Wishes, that card is so awesome.
It almost makes me want to play 2 Glittering Wish.
I think SDT/Sylvan/Arena/Tutor depends on what the rest of your deck is running. I think that generally speaking, SDT/Sylvan are strongest because of the mana cost (I'm not a fan of tutor) but what clinches it for me is the interaction with Pernicious Deed. Deed is something I feel like I need in order to be able to handle Zoo and Fish (and that's why I don't go to Pulse, which is better at eating hate cards but worse at beating aggro) and Top survives Deed whereas Library and Arena do not.
Jon: I think it sounds worthwhile, but it really comes down to how often you need it. I don't often find myself being 2 mana short, and on those occasions where I'm 1 mana short, Phyrexian Tower is a great land to fetch, since it can also act as my sac engine if I need it to.
Only me who feel that the deck is a tad too slow at setting up Gamekeeper milling?
I've run a build with and without rituals, with a different combination of tutors etc, and I still find it slow/difficult to set up Gamekeeper and be bulletproof...
Not to mention that when I do go off, I tend to fizzle the whole deck away and Emrakul is my last card in the deck, bad luck I guess.
There have been many more times where I felt that I'd rather want to go game two so that I can board in my Rock/Gate sideboard, especially against decks running Ioona naming black.
My only chance at stalling that game is Living Wishing for a Maze of Ith, and that is if I get to resolve a Living Wish without them being able to counter.
Any thoughts?
That does sound like bad luck. I've had Emrakul as 2nd to last card twice now, but fortunately, I was able to pull out both games. The one, I had to drop Gamekeeper and the next turn wish for Fleshbag Marauder to kill it, so I got beats for 2 in and then beats for 18 the next turn after having drawn the last card in my deck. The other one was against a Rock style deck and he'd done over 5 to himself between fetches and Thoughtseize.
As far as it being slow to set up the mill sometimes, I have had times where I feel like the disruption has done it's job and all I need to draw is a Keeper/Wish to finish it. I usually manage to find a combo piece within a few turns, however. Which can be too long against Fish and Zoo, but if you're having that problem in other matchups like Reanimator or Survival, perhaps you should consider running Skeletal Scrying? The problem with B/G is that it doesn't have ridiculous dig power with Brainstorm/Ponder, but Scrying is like a FoF for us, and with all the discard and LD, you'll have plenty of things in your yard to munch with it. I just don't run it because I don't have any issues with midrange, aggro control or control. I have issues with aggro (and I suppose the hyper-aggro end of aggro control). I'm considering adding blue for Lim-Dul's Vault as was suggested earlier, I just want to get a good testing base for the stock deck before I make any changes so that I can accurately see what the changes do to the matchups.
I've been testing and thinking some lately... The conslusion I've come to is that the deck lacks draw/filter power (read blue). It also feels that relying on 3 cards + tutors to get Emrakul in play (requires him to be in my deck) feels very poor.
Therefore I've been checking out some other possabilities to cheat Emrakul in play. There are the obvious one in blue, Show and Tell, which will give us added draw power and disruption instead of the black.
I've also found cards like Sneak Attack, ppl try to cheat emrakul in and giving him haste, why not sneak him in with the obvious enchantment?
I will try out a combination of these colors and see where I end up...
The thing with both Sneak and SnT is that you have to have Emrakul in hand to use either. Otherwise, they're dead cards. Can you speed up the combo of the deck? Of course. But you do so at the cost of resiliency. When you start cutting control cards, you edge towards a bad version of Belcher. Glass cannon combo has not historically been strong in modern Legacy. As the deck stands now, you have 1 true dead card, Emrakul himself. You have 3 combo enablers in the Gamekeepers. You've got a combo chain of 4 cards, leaving more slots for disruption and control. Adding more dead cards seems weak.
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