One very important thing to note is that if a list does well, it doesn't automatically mean that list is optimal. Take into consideration that the difference between 2 or 4 Badlands probably doesn't even changes the outcome of a single game in any tournaments, however if you play enough games a suboptimal decklist will eventually drop a game it would otherwise not have. To strengthen my argument somewhat, I have won my fair share of tournaments with suboptimal decks myself.Originally Posted by bakofried
Team R&D
I'm currently using 2 badlands, 4 auntie's hove,l 2 scaldering tarn, 2 blood-stained mire, 4 wasteland, 3 rishadan port, and 5 mountains and I have rarely had problems if any.
"don't call me a dog ...just say it backwards "
What luck! Recently joined a local legacy tournament.
Faced Slivers, Pox and TWO ANT decks with a sideboard of:
1x Gaea's Blessing
3x Mindbreak Traps
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Anarchy
2x Perish
Mindbreak traps were totally ineffective against ANT since they casting duress / thoughtseize first was not a problem. Although it was hilarious, the first ANT player killed me on first turn, he was confident that he'd be doing the same in the second game. He didn't even cast his duress to check my hand. His face was priceless when I casted the mindbreak trap.
Any suggestions on what I should've ran for sideboard instead? I would've wanted to use thorn of amethysts or pyrostatic pillars.
I run 4 Chalice of the Void instead of 3 Trap, 1 Blessing. The rest is identical. It's good against CanTresh, Reanimator, and ANT
I would suggest thorn of amethyst instead of mindbreak traps because not only are they relevant against ANT but they are also relevant against other combo decks and blue based control. Also, thorns can supplement ports and/or wastes rather well since the combination makes your opponent's spells cost more then usual.
Although, I suppose you could also make the same case for chalice of the void as well.
This is a hard choice for me. I was running thorn of amethyst, and I'm switching to mindbreak trap. If they try to get the ad nauseam out before playing duress, I might be able to stop their mana sources post nauseam and get a win out of it. But I'm worried about more ANT players playing around MT. But with thorn, they might combo out before you can even drop it (if they're on the play and go of on T2). That, and mindbreak trap stops belcher, while thorn doesn't come out fast enough. As for chalice, do you drop it for 0? They'll probably bounce it EOT then combo off. At least thorn makes that option more expensive for them. And a chalice for 0 may not help vs belcher. Pyrostatic pillar wasn't working for me before either. I think we have to accept that there really is no best option and run what works best for us, and I'm gonna try mindbreak trap.
Volrath's Stronghold - this option was brought up a couple pages back and I just happened to notice it. I can think of some favorable situations this card can create, and I'm just wondering why no one runs it. I often find myself with a vial for 4 on the board and a ringleader in the graveyard, which makes this card worth considering IMO.
Mogg Fanatic - Everyone jumped off the bandwagon with this guy, and I think he deserves more consideration. He's effectively a seal of fire (for 1) that also blocks and powers up your piledrivers and incinerators. He also hops into your hand when you resolve ringleader. It's a hard debate whether to run MF or lightning bolt because 3 damage opens you up to a lot more targets than 1 damage, including many zoo creatures. However, 1 is enough to kill several threats, such as lackey, hierarch, dark confidant, grim lavamancer, etc. I still don't feel comfortable with taking out 4 goblin creatures, leaving me only 22 goblin creatures (not counting incinerators) instead of 26, to run 4 bolts.
Last edited by Endril; 05-25-2010 at 05:12 AM.
On combo: it is always possible to have your chalice being bounced but that doesn't mean it always happens. It gives you time to find more hate. But I think you need more than 4 anti combo cards in your sb for chalice to be effective. Personally I would go for discard (Cabal Therapy, Duress, Thoughtseize) combined with graveyard hate in the sideboard.
On Volraths Stronghold: I think its a combination of people who think it's a win more card (or think Wort is better) or a manabase consideration.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
You do set chalice to zero, and it becomes a pain for your opponent. If playing Belcher or ANT, it shuts off 12 cards in their deck. Yes, they will eventually bounce it. The odds of them having the bounce in their opening hand is practically none. Therefore they have to waste a tutor to get bounce, which wastes 2-3 turns. You can do a lot of damage in those three turns. Not to mention, if you drop a second one at 1 or 2, you'll make their life that much more difficult. Against combo your not trying to stop them with your hate, only trying to delay them as long as possible. IMHO, turn 2 is too late (thorn and pillar) and they run 6-8 discard effects, making mindbreak trap not effective enough. Discard is okay, but ANT runs brainstorm, and often times you won't hit anything useful enough. Discard also means you don't get your turn 1 lackey or vial, which slows you down a lot. When your trying to race them, thats not good. Chalice drops for zero, therefore not hurting your tempo, and shuts off 20% of their deck. Seems good.
I hate to bring this topic up again but has anyone else had experience with deathmark in the board. I was play testing against zoo yesterday and although I won 3 out of 5 matches post board I found that deathmark would be better than pyrokinesis. With that said I think my board will be ....
4 leyline of the void
2 deathmark
3 pyrokinesis
3 chalice of the void( hands down best option against combo)
3 mindbreak trap
"don't call me a dog ...just say it backwards "
I like pyrokinesis for the mirror and for zoo and u can also bring it in against merfolk if you want, not that its needed. It's also good against random aggro you might play, like elves or something, I used it against belcher tokens as well. Its much more versatile although im sure deathmark is better against zoo
I think Deathmark makes only 1 bad match up a bit better
Perish is a good choice as well (not as god as Deathmark against Zoo, but much more flexible.
You can improve the Zoo MU by changing your strategy completely, so you dont need Deathmark.
The strategy:
you go into defense
you avoid as many damage you can, by putting creatures into their way.
you dont attack too much
you beat them in late game when they run out of burn and you draw Perish, SGC or Wort to make sick card advantage they cant keep up with.
Mindbreak trap is (as said before) total crap against combo, since they have discard.
I dont agree that it only helps with just zoo....reanimator,new horizons,no goyf,bant,countertop etc.
As far as mindbreak goes, it's good against belcher but is horrible against ant ....so i might make it a 4 chalice 2 trap split.
"don't call me a dog ...just say it backwards "
What I meant was this: considering Deathmark OR Perish, against Zoo Deathmark is better than Perish. Against all other MU you named Perish is a bomb. Against Reanimator you dont even need Deathmark.
I noticed that nearly everyone considers Belcher when building the SB. Is Belcher really this wide-spread in America?
I just got finished rebuilding this deck, and I'll be trying it out Sunday. I'll update Monday with a decklist, MU results, and meta decisions.
@ Mogg Fanatic: This guy was a beast last time I checked but lately he's just been replaced. As I built the deck I noticed that a good chunk of the deck needs to be set aside just to put Lackey/Instigator through. That seems like it would be the only use for Fanatic but there just isn't enough space for him, not to mention when I'm playtesting I ALWAYS imagine a Kird Ape across the board from me. That being I said, I think any combination of Gempalm/Weirding/Stingcourger/Bolt has to take prioity over the Fanatic. I would even run Tarfire over Fanatic, but I chose Bolts 'cause last time I checked, 3 > 2. Is everyone really THAT much against Tarfire? I haven't seen anyone mention it.
@ Leyline: Is Tormod's Crypt outdated?
Point taken on the deathmark ...thanks for the insight.
Yea i have played quite a few belcher decks especially in Cali...everyone likes to play combo here.
"don't call me a dog ...just say it backwards "
I wouldn't call that insight, cause I still think that Perish is a better choice than Deathmark. ;-)
Let's take a look at some MUs to look which one is better:
Deathmark: Zoo, Reanimator
Perish: Bant, Progenitus Order, CounterTop, New Horizons, Canadian Thresh
Looking at this I would prefer Perish. Zoo is a bad MU and Deathmark makes it only little better. If you are running Rb Reanimator is a very good MU, with Ley-Line its even better than usual.
For all other MU listed above: Perish can rarely be countered by Counterbalance, Perish is a sweeper, and most importantly: it doesnt target!
If you dont agree: let me know, cause I never tested Deathmark and therefore I can only assume how it changes our MUs
I mainly like deathmark the reanimator and zoo MU but you're right perish is better. On another topic i really dont think zoo is a bad MU....it mostly counts on who goes first....with my build at least
"don't call me a dog ...just say it backwards "
So is there any consens whether Mono Red lists or the Rb ones are stronger in the current metagame? I've been testing goblins recently and found this particular list to be very strong:
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer/ Tuktuk Scrapper (Which one is better?)
1 Goblin Pyromancer
However I can see as my list struggles against Zoo as I don't have any Warren Weirdings. Going Mono red however gives me the possibility of running Mogg Fanatic along with the full set of Incinerators. This complements the deck's removal suite very well and the Moggs are quite strong in the current metagame. Basically they are good at killing Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, Elves, Fish, Dredge, other goblins and Grim Lavamancer. They give us a desperately needed 1 drop and make the Incinerators much stronger by giving you more goblins in the earlygame. They also tend to make Piledriver much better as they give you more agressive starts.
So far I've also been very comfortable with the deck's manabase stability which is awesome to have in many matchups. Not running black denies me the ability to run Perish but this is basically needed for Zoo (which is my only real problem), Goyfs, Vores, Knights of the Reliquary (Relic of Progenitus) and Progenitus itself which can quite effectively be delayed with 4 Moggs/Incinerators to kill of your opponents guys supported by 8 mana denial lands.
More testing will prove but so far I like Mono Red better.
Slow control decks die to goblins so there is no need for either. And therefore, they are both win more cards.
I just did some work and found that Goblins was 2-5-0 vs Belcher in Atlanta. And I'm not sure that chalice can stop them, since they'll often pitch spirits and use rituals to get there. Does that make mindbreak trap look better?
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