All B/R update speculation.

[Vacrix]

Well its another enabler of turn 1 3sphere (ie. Tomb/City --> Grim Monolith --> 3sphere). It might see some mad tricks with Voltaic Key, considering that Key is also pretty busted with Metal Worker. Other than that I agree, Stax is still an inconsistent deck even with Grim Monolith.

[sdematt]

I see Grim Monolith finally being the last straw and allowing Wildfire-type decks to be run again, but I don't see it as a problem with the type of decks now seen in the format (ex. Those with counterspells). It'll basically be put into some artifact acceleration deck playing tons of spheres, thorns, and the like. We have that already (Metalworker), and I see no warping of the format.

I would like to see Mind Twist be considered for unbanning. The card is good, I've played with it long ago, but it doesn't become brutal until a couple of turns into the game, unless you double ritual into it. Isn't it unbanned in Vintage? I'd definitely like to toy around with it a bit, but I don't think the decks that would play a few Mind Twist would be made format warping by its addition.

-Matt

[Broham]

I too would like to see Mind Twist unbanned, and yes it was un-restricted in Vintage. Unfortunately, I think the very recent printing of Mind Shatter will discourage Wizards from reviewing Mind Twist seriously, at least anytime soon.

[yankeedave]

I too would like to see Mind Twist unbanned, and yes it was un-restricted in Vintage. Unfortunately, I think the very recent printing of Mind Shatter will discourage Wizards from reviewing Mind Twist seriously, at least anytime soon.

I disagree, cards like this tend to be a tester for older cards to be reprinted. Take Lightning Bolt for example. 2 years ago, they reprinted Incinerate in 9th Ed, then they printed Shard Volley. Lo and behold, having tested the waters with these two cards and found them not to be overpowered, they reprint Lightning Bolt. I think the same thing could be happening with Mind Twist.

Dave

[Sims]

I have my playset of Monoliths ready to put into Wildfire if they ever come off the list. I also have a set of Power Artifacts, Tezzerets, and some Staff of Dominations that would like to find a new big blue Control Slaverish or Slaver Stax style deck. Power up the Monolith or protect the Metalworker, critical mass the mana and then just slaver lock people or abuse some other win-con with your infinite colorless.

Sounds like a good time to me.

[lordofthepit]

Not sure where this post belongs, but I just had this idea on a whim while reading the Non-LED Ichorid thread.

You can reorder your graveyard in formats without graveyard-order-matters cards. So you can reorder your graveyard in Standard and Extended but not in Legacy or Vintage.

Wizards has banned ante cards from all formats entirely, and they have also banned cards for logistical reasons, whether they be for physical dexterity reasons (Chaos Orb, Falling Star) or for time constraints (Shahrazad). I was wondering how you guys would feel if they also banned cards like Shallow Grave and Nether Shadow which requires you to maintain graveyard order for similar reasons to simplify the game, or at least errata so that it'd be easier to reorder our graveyard.

Obviously, the cards are far from broken, and they don't cause quite the logistical concerns that Chaos Orb and Falling Star do, but the cards almost never see play anyway (although I think I've seen Vintage Dredge lists play Nether Shadow). How would you feel about banning them from Legacy so that we could save "tabletop space" when playing Dredge?

[Broham]

Obviously, the cards are far from broken, and they don't cause quite the logistical concerns that Chaos Orb and Falling Star do, but the cards almost never see play anyway (although I think I've seen Vintage Dredge lists play Nether Shadow). How would you feel about banning them from Legacy so that we could save "tabletop space" when playing Dredge?

What? I think you answered your own question there. The less banned cards, the better.

[dahcmai]

I'd be against that just for Krovokian Horror. I personally love that card. Nether Shadow isn't a bad card either. Shallow Grave stands on the verge of seeing play again alone.

[jrsthethird]

I disagree, cards like this tend to be a tester for older cards to be reprinted. Take Lightning Bolt for example. 2 years ago, they reprinted Incinerate in 9th Ed, then they printed Shard Volley. Lo and behold, having tested the waters with these two cards and found them not to be overpowered, they reprint Lightning Bolt. I think the same thing could be happening with Mind Twist.

Dave

So does Deprive mean that Counterspell will make a comeback?

[lordofthepit]

My other suggestion--which was vaguely implied and which I should have been more explicit about--is to allow players to arrange graveyards however they want anyway, in which case the cards might as well be errated anyway.

For instance,

Shallow Grave
Instant, 1B (2)
Return a creature card in your graveyard to the battlefield. That creature gains haste until end of turn. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.

Nether Shadow
Creature - Spirit 1/1, BB (2)
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Nether Shadow is in your graveyard with three or more other creature cards, you may put Nether Shadow onto the battlefield.

Phyrexian Furnace
Artifact, 1 (1)
{T}: Target player exiles a card in his or her graveyard.
{1}, Sacrifice Phyrexian Furnace: Exile target card from a graveyard. Draw a card.

In the case of Phyrexian Furnace, because each person organizes his or her own graveyard, the functional effect of this rule change would be to allow that player to exile a card of his choice, which is reflected in these rules. I think that the proposed rule change would hardly break anything while making it easier to sort through graveyards.

But I digress from the intent of this thread, and maybe it would be more appropriate to open a new thread about this.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Frankly, I can't think of a single good reason that you shouldn't be able to reorder your graveyard in Legacy. Krovikian Horror would probably be better than Squee in Survival decks. That's the only relevant change I can think of. Hell, Volrath's Shapeshifter isn't even playable with new combat rules anymore.

[Vacrix]

Hell, Volrath's Shapeshifter isn't even playable with new combat rules anymore.

Speaking of which... I liked combat damage on stack. :/

[dontbiteitholmes]

Frankly, I can't think of a single good reason that you shouldn't be able to reorder your graveyard in Legacy. Krovikian Horror would probably be better than Squee in Survival decks. That's the only relevant change I can think of. Hell, Volrath's Shapeshifter isn't even playable with new combat rules anymore.

Not sure where this post belongs, but I just had this idea on a whim while reading the Non-LED Ichorid thread.



Wizards has banned ante cards from all formats entirely, and they have also banned cards for logistical reasons, whether they be for physical dexterity reasons (Chaos Orb, Falling Star) or for time constraints (Shahrazad). I was wondering how you guys would feel if they also banned cards like Shallow Grave and Nether Shadow which requires you to maintain graveyard order for similar reasons to simplify the game, or at least errata so that it'd be easier to reorder our graveyard.

Obviously, the cards are far from broken, and they don't cause quite the logistical concerns that Chaos Orb and Falling Star do, but the cards almost never see play anyway (although I think I've seen Vintage Dredge lists play Nether Shadow). How would you feel about banning them from Legacy so that we could save "tabletop space" when playing Dredge?

Yeah, I could go for that for sure. Not being able to reorder your graveyard is a serious waste of time. Really though I almost feel like all the graveyard cards could either be erratad or left alone, I don't think any of them would be ban worthy since the bar is set so high in Legacy for playable cards. Well the only card that might need to be banned would be Volrath's Shapeshifter, not that it would be broken per se, but it would be playable and be able to change forms at will without using the stack which would just be stupid. I guess actually they could errata it to add 0: Volrath's Shapeshifter become a copy of target creature in your graveyard with this ability and the discard one, blah blah. That's quite different from how the card actually works though and opens it up to Pithing Needle and whatnot.

[Grollub]

Death Spark would be bonkers if you could rearrange your graveyard as you wish.

[cjva]

How hard is it to maintain a proper gy order?

[Vacrix]

You would likely need some method of rearranging it. Grim Lavamancer?

[(nameless one)]

So, its official that the next Judge Promo would be Land Tax (alongside with Thawing Glaciers).

Is there a possibility that the creepy little taxman will see the tabletops of Legacy events? (In fairness, the Promo alt-art looks gorgeous)

[DragoFireheart]

Considering that Wizards has just allowed Entomb to be unbanned recently, what are the chances that Oath of Druids would be unbanned?

It does not have issue of graveyard hate that Entomb has, but it's vulnerable to Qasali Pridemage. Oath is also somewhat weak to storm decks without the aid of Forbidden Orchard.

[hjalte]

Also, Oath of Druids is a 1-card combo, while entomb requires another card, a 2-card combo.
That makes all the difference, and is why oath probably will never be unbanned.

[denial]

Considering that Wizards has just allowed Entomb to be unbanned recently, what are the chances that Oath of Druids would be unbanned?

Did you just seriously, legitimately, ask that ? Cause thats fucking funny.