I realize punishing fire in itself isnt as powerful as say Chain lightning, I just figured that punishing fire would help prevent the deck from running out of gas. But maybe it is too weak?
Awesome deck idea by the way! :)
Here is another attempt at a UGR list.
Manabase is a bit of a mess, but lots of fetches means we can run Plated Geopede okay enough. Dazes might need to be something better, but 16 blue cards isn't enough for Force and I don't know if anything is better in it's slot aside from Spell Pierce or something. Daze also interacts with GeopedeOriginally Posted by UGR Berserked Fiends
.
My friend built a deck VERY similar to this deck back in 2006. It was basically Wee Dragonaught and burn/cantrip based. He used that double-strike 1card and the red Giant Growth to rush to victory. Basically, a Bolt would be 5 damage if there was a Wee Dragonaught on the board.
Have you tried Crop Rotation? It buffs Plated Geopede, Klin & Wee while helping with mana fixing. Grab a fetchland and the Geopede could get +6/+6 if you hit your land drop, +8/+8 if that was a fetch! If he had flying, even Iona would be fodder. You could throw in some utility lands as well like Barbarian Ring or something.
Last edited by Greenpoe; 05-24-2010 at 10:37 PM.
Thinking about that burn slot in substitution for Magma Jet...
What about Fork? http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=fork&v=card&s=cname
It's veratile, can answer removal by removing another creature, a counter or just copying your own Lightning Bolt or FoW.
So thoughts about this choice?
Hehe, but Fork is just such a sweet old nice card ^^
Fun option to add, I have to say. The only sucky thing in the double color cost in both cards. Twincast being a lot better in this deck of course :P
Double Cleave is a really nice card with the deck. It acts like a Berserk for red, I've tested the card in other builds and it's an extremely powerful instant.My friend built a deck VERY similar to this deck back in 2006. It was basically Wee Dragonaught and burn/cantrip based. He used that double-strike 1
I originally tried using a Tempo Thresh mold, replacing Mongoose with Lavamancer, Tamrogayf with Kiln Fiends, and the Clique spots (for the lists that run it) with Wee Dragonauts. It was too reactive and was an epic fail.
This is the list I'm playing around with right now. The deck is pretty fragile, so I'm this is probably fail too, but this is what I came up with:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [IN] Island (2)
2 [BRB] Mountain (7)
// Creatures
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ROE] Kiln Fiend
2 [GP] Wee Dragonauts
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Fire/Ice
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
The sideboard is just a random through-together for right now.
I try to use 12 cantrips to help me chain into more cantrips or burn to try and play as many spells as possible a turn to maximize the pump creature effectiveness. I tried to add a little extra burn to clear blockers away or go to the dome if need be (the excess burn actually won me a game against Blue Lands that I would have most certainly lost). Force and Daze are my only protection spells unfortunately.
Fun deck, but I doubt it will ever be anything better than Tier 2 at best.
You could grab Teetering Peaks for 2 more power, or Soaring Seacliff, Sejiri Steppe, or Smoldering Spires to get through blockers.
I have to retract my previous statements about the deck I posted. I've been playing with it a bit and it's actually been smashing face pretty well. I cut 3 Spell Snares from the sideboard for 3 Price to Progress, which have been amazing.
I really enjoy playing the deck. It feels like Tempo Thresh in the fact that it plays a very aggressive tempo-oriented role, except that instead of utilizing manabase disruption, it runs more burn and guys that swing for alot more. I find myself usually only getting 1 big attack with Kiln or Wee before they either get removed or there are too many big guys in play, but at that point, I'm usually able to switch to a burn plan for the win. You'd be suprised how easily it is to build up a heavy burn hand with only 12 burn spells + Lavamancer, when you run 12 cantrips.
I really want to stress that I find this deck to use tempo just as effectively or better than Tempo Thresh. Being able knock the opponent down 7-13 life on turn 3 or 4 just swings a massive amount of tempo in your favor.
I also really like how a turn 1 Grim Lavamancer baits out removal. I find it to be an optimal turn 1 play if my hand is good, because the deck doesn't need to waste cantrips to create card quality when the quality is already good and it sets you up for the ability to burn blockers early without wasting burn in hand, which gives you gas to finish the opponent off with burn later.
What I like the most is how reminiscent this deck is of my old U/G/R Gro deck with Mongoose, Dryad, and Wee Dragonauts. It's literally almost the exact same shell, +/- a few things here and there. It used to be a pretty solid deck back then (pre-Goyf era), and this improved version seems to be pretty solid for right now.
I've been finding the Merfolk matchup to be incredibly good despite running Islands, and I've also beat a few control decks, specifically Blue Lands. I haven't gotten the chance to test Goblins or Zoo. I would assume the deck has a decent game vs ANT since although it has less disruption, it has a faster clock (games 2 and 3 would also get Spell Pierce boarded in). However, I've not tested the ANT matchup. I'm not sure whether Reanimator would be good or bad, but the deck can always board bounce if need be and it has the ability to burn the opponent out if they land Iona on blue.
Anyways, that's all for now. This deck is amazingly fun and I'm very satisfied with my build at the moment. However, my build doesn't run cards like Distortion Strike, and is in fact running FoW/Daze... should my list get posted in a different thread?
Hi guys!!! I think it's already official but I'm not sure.
Has anyone seen m11's Chandra's flamespitter ???
2R Flying. Gets +3/+0 everytime you deal noncombat damage to opponent 1/3
It could be a really good add to the deck, if it's true. He doesn't get pumped for blue, but he's way too good with burn.
this together with kiln fiend + that untapping red gelectorde like thingy (don't know it's name) that only works for red + grim lavamancer/magus of the scroll = the return of red sligh :D
Post your list. I find the declk somewhat weak without Distortion Strike as it makes it harder for your Kilns to connect. One casting of DS with your Kiln results in 10 damage over a couple turns if they do nothing to either kill the Kiln or counter the DS.
Yes, this deck can smash face. I'm still debating over whether to use Grim Lavamancer or Spellblade. I have found the Spellblade very weak when any creatures blocks it's way or I don't have a Distoration Strike.
My list is already posted on this page, I don't want to clutter the thread with decklists. It's 2 posts above the post you read.Post your list. I find the declk somewhat weak without Distortion Strike as it makes it harder for your Kilns to connect. One casting of DS with your Kiln results in 10 damage over a couple turns if they do nothing to either kill the Kiln or counter the DS.
Yes, this deck can smash face. I'm still debating over whether to use Grim Lavamancer or Spellblade. I have found the Spellblade very weak when any creatures blocks it's way or I don't have a Distoration Strike.
Distortion Strike is as subpar to me as Reckless Charge in Sligh. It's only valuable when you have Kiln Fiend in play, since neither Wee nor Lavamancer need it. It's much better off being burn.
Since the deck only really needs one swing with Kiln Fiend, and between all the burn + Fire/Ice (Ice side), it's very easy to allow Kiln to swing once uncontested for 7+ damage. Getting two swings in is not uncommon at all, should the need arise (i.e the first swing was for low damage). Typically, once I hit the opponent for 10+ damage, all I'm worried about at that point is cantripping into burn to finish the opponent off.
Distortion Strike gives 1 guy evasion. It does essentially the same thing as burn, i.e allow our attacker to swing through, except it's dead without said guy in play whereas burn goes to the dome. I really don't understand the point of it. Maybe it could be the difference between your build and mine that makes it so valuable to you? I don't know.
What I think is just as relevant is the ability for the opponent to simply remove Kiln, rather than have a blocker we can't answer. Distortion Strike does nothing to protect Kiln, whereas burn has other purposes.
Spellblade is awful. 3 mana for an evasionless creature with a 2/1 body is too expensive for Legacy. If you do actually get to succeed in pushing through combat damage one time, before the guy eats removal or is chump blocked by literally anything possible, why not just run Predict? If drawing cards is your game, Predict just seems to be way better with all the cantrips the deck runs. Yes, you lose out on possibily getting alot more cards, but it's more consistent, and games where you are able to draw that many cards, you should be winning that game without Spellblade.
Think of the deck as Tempo Threshold, without the manabase disruption. Your goal is to drop a guy, protect him, clear blockers (or tap them down), and push through some beats while the opponent is off his toes. The difference here is that this deck runs less disruption but needs far less swings to finish the game. A clutter of 3cc spells does not improve the deck. I run only 2 Wee Dragonauts for this reason, which is a solid finisher because of the evasion it has. I see some lists with 4 Dragonauts and 4 Spellblade and cannot understand how this works effectively without being loaded with 3cc spells in the opener. Pitching to Force is not a valid argument to make running so many 3cc spells viable. Even past the opener, this deck wants to be able to cast multiple spells a turn to either pump up existing guys on the board, or to cantrip into burn for the finish, and 3cc spells still clutter the hand.
The deck is very tempo oriented in this approach, and once successful, can switch to a straight burn out plan if it can no longer push anymore damage through with creatures for whatever reason. Spellblade does nothing to aid this plan whatsover, and forces the deck to run subpar cards like Distortion Strike just to be useful.
Grim Lavamancer is a definite must for this deck. It fits beautifully into the decks curve and gives the deck a means of additional removal vs tribal decks, as well as a finisher that goes the distance if the ground is clogged with fatties.
---
That's my stance on both Distortion Strike and Surrakar Spellblade.
tl;dr: I don't think either of those cards are good for this archtype.
---
Very interesting find. Unfortunately, blue cantrips don't pump it any. The deck would need to become very burn heavy, at which point you start to look like Sligh. I don't think a conditional 3cc creature is an improvement to the Sligh archtype, so the only place I see him going is possibly in heavy burn Zoo lists as a replacement for Wooly Thoctar/Knight of the Reliquary.2R Flying. Gets +3/+0 everytime you deal noncombat damage to opponent 1/3
He doesn't fit in this deck anyway, that's for sure.
I know this is a double post, but that's because this is something entirely new:
Preordain U
Sorcery
Scry 2, then draw a card.
Just read that on the M11 spoiler thread. Supposedly it's just in the rumor mill right now at Salvation... but that would be frickin awesome for this deck. I'd replace my Serum Visions for it asap if it's real.
I think you guys are overlooking Snap.
Remove a blocker, pump Fiend/Dragonauts, and untap lands to play more spells!
Definitely in the board, not too sure on the main - probably a meta call.
hey there!
i like the idea of the deck so i tested a few versions myself. this is the latest build i'm currently running and it seems quite good. it's u/r with a splash of white. i found emerge unscathed really useful, for making your creature unblockable or protect them from removal. swords to plowshares doesn't need any explanations, but in this deck it can also be good to save your ass when you're at low life by removing your own fiend. double cleave and lava dart with flashback are like the finisher.
what do you think of it?
creatures: 10
4 grim lavamancer
4 kiln fiend
2 wee dragonauts
blue: 19
4 force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 fire/ice
red: 8
2 double cleave
2 lava dart
4 lightning bolt
white: 7
4 swords to plowshares
3 emerge unscathed
lands: 18
4 tundra
4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
3 flooded strand
1 island
1 mountain
1 plains
Cypex, I'm not sure whether you realized it or not, but your deck is 62 cards.
The idea to splash white isn't bad. You gain a little more consistency and longevity with cards like Swords to Plowshares. You lose some of the explosiveness, but that may end up being worth it.
Double Cleave isn't worth it. Yes it makes for a double powered guy, if you manage to have the 2-of in your hand the same time you go for the big strike, but it's unecessary. Being able to keep the guy alive, being able to pump him up in the first place, and being able to attack without getting blocked are more important areas to focus on. This does none of those.
Emerge Unscathed is 10x better than Distortion Strike, IMO. I'm not sure that I'd necessarily run 3, but I'm unsure at this point. 3 sounds like a fine starting point for testing purposes.
Lava Dart is awful. I thought it would be good too, and maybe in a heavily infested Goblins metagame or something, but when you think about it, the double pump is only netting you +1 damage (Wee) or +2 damage (Kiln) vs Chain Lightning, except you have to sacrifice a mountain and it's much worse than Chain Lightning in many other aspects (Chain hits Nacatl's and Kird Apes, does more damage without a Wee or Kiln in play, etc).
I agree that with StP, the full 4 Fire/Ice isn't necessary. Honestly, with StP and Emerge Unscathed, we probably don't even need Fire/Ice at all. The 1/1 split damage is rarely important, if ever. The tap ability was mandatory in U/R, but with StP amd Emerge, the role of attacking through big blockers has pretty much been filled. There are better direct damage spells than Fire. Yea, you lose the cantrip effect from Ice, but the deck should be running a ton of cantrips anyway.
On that note, you really do want to run more cantrips, they are the engine that this deck thrives off of.
Here's more along the lines of how I'd tune a 3c version splashing white:
Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Mountain
Creatures (10)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Wee Dragonauts
Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Emerge Unscathed
Possibly -1 Volcanic Island +1 Plains, but I think basic Plains would hurt more than it would help to be honest.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote