[Archetype] CounterTop

[OurSerratedDust]

I'm using Ruben Gonzales Parrado's top 8 list from Madrid (NO Pro) and I'm kind of new to the deck. How do you board against decks like Merfolk? What about other tempo oriented decks? Do you side out the NO Pro package for firespout? Do you board out counterbalances?

Any insight is appreciated. Thanks a lot.

[Jon Stewart]

Is counterbalance still worth it? I'm not convinced. I feel like those 6 slots are better off going to 4 NO + Progentius and some Path to Exiles to supplement the StPs. Zoo is a tough matchup otherwise.

[DragoFireheart]

Is Counter-Top dying off?

[ShiftyKapree]

I think CBT is dying off but I can also see it being played in heavy ANT metagames. The list just needs to adapt again to the meta-shift

[4zureSky]

I think countertop just sucks against aggro and that is probably where supreme blue would come into play.

[Adan]

I think countertop just sucks against aggro and that is probably where supreme blue would come into play.

No. Actually a build like Nassif's is still very persistent in the current meta. The last time I played I went 5-1. I somehow got lucksacked by Tempo Thresh, but against every other deck, Counterbalance as well as Vedalken Shackles were very brutal. Vedalken Shackles is godlike against Aggro.

I think Countertop is dying off because people don't play streamlined builds anymore. Bant with Natural Order wrecks it's curve by having ~9 cards in addition to their lands that hit no relevant spell (these cards being 18ish lands, 3 NO, 1 Progenitus and 4 Forces). A blind Balance does nothing here.

And Supreme Blue is basically the same thing, the list I've seen just play 12 CC2 spells and an overkill of 9 CC3 spells. Same thing as above. You won't be able to efficiently counter CC2 spells (noticed that the format-defining cards are nearly all CC2?).

When Clemens and I tinkered wih several Countertop builds, we always included Predicts as a filler just to have a good or at least playable CC2 card to flip with Balance (not to mention that Predict still synergizes very well with a Countertop shell) because the CC2 slot was always very thin.

Although Supreme Blue seems to be a deck that works, I still think there's a massive design fail.

[Jaiminho]

Alright, I read the last 5 pages and didn't get to a conclusion about the best response to reanimator. Obvious ones are graveyard hate, but as with CB, it ain't useful if the damage is already being done. Got some questions to keep this discussion going and, hopefully, leading me to the right direction.

- Why people suggest Chain of Vapor? CB Thresh never needed bounce for anything, but now something that bounces not only creatures is here doing what? Why not simply get Seal of Removal or something?
- Does Curfew sound reasonable? It sucks your creature up as well, but that shouldn't be a problem. Tempo loss for the reanimator/natural order (it does work against that too, but not always) player should be way bigger than yours. It may not even be relevant to you. Also, it's the only thing you can do against Inkwell Leviathan.

PS: I haven't played in a while; I might be kinda coming back.

[BantFTW]

Okay for reanimator:

Jace is quite good against it but you have the problem with the shroud creatures...
Then you've got also counters to stop them and STP-PTE...
But what's also quit nice is this:
LLawan, cephalid empress
It's also very, very ghood against merfolk and it also can bounce someone's Progenitus so..

And whhy countertop is bad against aggro??
I never lose against zoo, sometimes merfolk(just stop the LOA) but after sideboard not^^
Only gobblins is very hard but that's the only one I think...

And why would you play Supreme Blue? Against aggro we've got 3 RWM and I've even got 1 extra kitchen finks.
It's true that we need more 2cc cards, that's why I play also 1 predator and 2 qasali (2 manacost)

[4zureSky]

haha I am playing the wrong deck in the wrong meta game. I am playing NO countertop in a meta filled with goblins and merfolks! :( I've tried nassif's and supreme blue's build. I like the build wit vedalken shackle the most since it gave me a much better MU. Other than that I shouldn't play countertop with a meta like that I guess.

[BantFTW]

No lol, play ANT then haha xD
It wins it all...
Or lands or something hehe

[bokepa]

Hi there,

I've been toying with CB Bant lately. People in my meta have adapted to Progenitus, but just in their sideboards. They bring perish, washout, wing shards, runed halo. So i've started a SB transformation. I want to stay with main NO becouse it just wins games alone.

Heres the list:

2 Windsteaph Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 NH
3 RWM
4 Tarmo
2 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq
1 Progenitus

4 FoW
3 Daze
3 CB
3 SDT
4 Brainstorm
4 StoP
3 NO
2 Jitte

SB:
2 Spell pierce
2 Meddling Mage
2 Aura of Silence
1 SoFi
2 Dueling Grounds
2 StoneForge Mystic
2 Elspeth
2 Faerie Macabre

What i think my list does is getting a better agroo matchup while weaking a bit combo and gy dependant decks like new horizons and loam.

I know i will get flamed by only using 3 CB and 3 top, but think about it: Jitte is superior vs Goblins, Merfolks, its not bad against Zoo let you function under a humility and let you win games you should lose. Yes i weaken my combo matchup but not that much as an active jitte owns belcher tokens, makes ANT go for more storm and can potentially kill a reanimated creature.

Rafiq is there for they sinergy with equipments, trygons, and RWM lifelink.

Regarding SB, If they bring the hate cards for progenitus now they only are partially efective as all the named sided cards wont touch your equipments and you problably will stay with a creature on board.

The board plan is more or less like this:

Dredge (Remove bridges with NO, jitte your NH and faeries, land a dueling grounds with protection ftw):
-3 CB
-1 SDT
+2 Dueling
+2 Faerie Macabre


Gobos (Buy time chump blocking and dueling grounds and win with NO/jitte/sofi):
-3CB
-1SDT
-1 Progenitus
+1 Empyrial
+2 Dueling
+1 SoFi

BR Gobos(buy time chump blocking and dueling land jitte/SoFi for the win, we aware of perish / warren / wort:
-3CB
-1SDT
-3NO
-1 Progenitus
+1 Meddling Mage
+2 StoneForge
+2 Elspeth
+2 Dueling
+1 SoFi

Merfolk(versions with kira are harder. pray for a protected jitte, dueling, sofi):
-3CB
-1SDT
-3NO
-1Progenitus
+2 Dueling
+1 SoFi
+2 StoneForge
+2 Elspeth

Zoo:
-1 Rafiq
-1Progenitus
-1NO
+2 Elspeth
+1 Empyral

Sligh:
-1 Progenitus
-2 Jitte
+1 Empyral
+2 Spell pierce

Reanimate:
-3 NO
-1Progenitus
-1Rafiq
+2 Spell pierce
+1 SoFi
+2 Faerie Macabre

ANT:
-3 NO
-1 Progenitus
-2 Trygon Predator
+2 Aura of Silence
+2 Meedling Mage
+2 Spell pierce

Enchantress:
-4 Stop
+2 Spell pierce
+2 Meddling Mage

Survival:
??
I really miss pithing needle here.


I would like comments on any weakness you see and if you see any flaw with my sideboard plan and how to side vs Survival.

[blueneverfails]

Well first thing is first, to bokepa, what is the point of putting in Natural order if you are side boarding it out over 3/4th of your match ups? The only time I would take it out would be against Ant and Enchantress, not against zoo, gobs or reanimate, I can't count the times I've raced a reanimator deck, cuz they reanimate Iona on white and then, I bring in the beats, also against zoo, if you get it off turn 3 or 4, its instant game almost. same for gobbos if you play it right.

Since he is talking about side boarding, I have finally given up my hold on playing 4 color NO CT to take out the confidants for Qasali, and the list I have been testing was actually only 3 cards off the NO Bant list by Jim ORR that got 2nd place at Philly. Right now I'm trying to get a solid sideboard for a meta that is like Philly with a lot of zoo, reanimate and such, but can't seem to keep a list that I like. Anyone here had some success and could you also post what are the main things to take out for match ups? I've got another tourney tonight, so I will come back and see If I can give what I think I should take out and put in so that people can help me tweak.

[bokepa]

The idea is that most decks bring hate for progenitus but just in their side:, perish, washout, wing shards, circle of protections, runed halo...etc they will bring it game2 and you blank most of their sideboard by changing NO.

I also won a lot of games racing with progenitus, but i also lost a lot because i NO just to get perished or washedout. Lately i've lost more than win with NO post-board so thats why i change.

And btw, reanimator should be reanimating Inkwell vs us and good luck with progenitus vs BR goblins with Earwing Squads, Perish, Warren Weirding and Wort.

[blueneverfails]

The idea is that most decks bring hate for progenitus but just in their side:, perish, washout, wing shards, circle of protections, runed halo...etc they will bring it game2 and you blank most of their sideboard by changing NO.

I also won a lot of games racing with progenitus, but i also lost a lot because i NO just to get perished or washedout. Lately i've lost more than win with NO post-board so thats why i change.

And btw, reanimator should be reanimating Inkwell vs us and good luck with progenitus vs BR goblins with Earwing Squads, Perish, Warren Weirding and Wort.

With my experience, even with my GPT that I sadly got third in today, every reanimator I have faced brings in iona, not inkwell, so I will go off my own experience plus, you can still race with inkwell, all you gotta do is drop 1 more creature plus progen to win. And it has proven itself by the numbers that the black version rarely run. Goblins, is only about 5% of the format in big tournies and out of the 5 only about 20% are black, which means 1% of the whole tourny is black.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I took Andy Probasco's list from Chicago to the local today with a few tweaks to the local today and picked up a couple packs for my trouble. Even though only 8-12 people show up, the metagame is always super competitive. I played against Bant Survival (2-1), Burn (0-2), 4c Landstill (2-1) and Goblins (2-1) to make top4.

I cut the two Grips and one of the Tops to add three Firespout to the maindeck and they were phenomenal all day.
My list looked like this:

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
6 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Academy Ruins
4 Goyf
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare

3 Firespout
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pithing Needle

What's so much fun about this deck is it's raw power level. Counterbalance, Shackles, Sower and Firespout all won me games on their own and combined with several powerful engines in Top and Academy Ruins, there's not much that a lot of decks can do. One of the problems that I did run into was that your curve sometimes leads to slow starts out of the gate, but that's really only relevant against hyper aggressive decks and is mitigated by boarding in seven one for ones to slow down decks like Goblins and Zoo to the point where you just outclass them in the lategame.

This deck fits very well into the current meta and it's something that hopefully more people will pick up.

[Piceli89]

Is Counter-Top dying off?

I hoped so. Time to play decks requiring skills.

[keys]

I hoped so. Time to play decks requiring skills.

Time to make posts requiring thought.

[aznepyon7]

The Natural Orders for Proggy and additional PtE to support the STP seems important now that Mystical Tutor is being banned.

It's starting to look that Zoo is going to go crazy again now that ANT and Reanimator have been dealt a blow.

[Raptor]

The Natural Orders for Proggy and additional PtE to support the STP seems important now that Mystical Tutor is being banned.

It's starting to look that Zoo is going to go crazy again now that ANT and Reanimator have been dealt a blow.

I actually built with a friend a CBtop deck that was good for the metagame, having an even match up versus aggro and a really good match up versus combo and such, but now that Mystical is banned, I'm not sure if CB top is that good anymore.

Anyway, it's clear that Cbtop deck should now focus on aggro.
I've been thinkering about running 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Packing those with a decent amount of creatures is probally going to be good. Versus merfolk, goblins and elves, it steals games.

Also, running Knight of the Reliquary might be a good idea because it is good versus aggro for its big body while being good versus some other critters that other decks are running (while Rhox War Monk has a small body) such as Knights of the reliquary, Tarmogoyf and Terravore.

I'll probally post a list soon.

[aznepyon7]

I actually built with a friend a CBtop deck that was good for the metagame, having an even match up versus aggro and a really good match up versus combo and such, but now that Mystical is banned, I'm not sure if CB top is that good anymore.

Anyway, it's clear that Cbtop deck should now focus on aggro.
I've been thinkering about running 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Packing those with a decent amount of creatures is probally going to be good. Versus merfolk, goblins and elves, it steals games.

Also, running Knight of the Reliquary might be a good idea because it is good versus aggro for its big body while being good versus some other critters that other decks are running (while Rhox War Monk has a small body) such as Knights of the reliquary, Tarmogoyf and Terravore.

I'll probally post a list soon.

Yes but RWM can handle nacatl, lions and will still require a bolt to kill it. I've always found them to be very good in GWU so taking them out is iffy. But with New Horizons being a bigger threat then ever, I can see your point. However, their Knights are likely to be larger than yours.