[Deck] Belcher

[magicplaya10]

Holy Crap....Grim Monolith is UNBANNEDED!

So what do you think would be the proper cut for Monolith? i can see how Street Wraith would get cut, but I wouldn't cut Manamorphose, it fixes your manas.

The thing is, Street Wraith also helps draw through you the deck, so idk. I would probably test cutting the Wraith for Monolith. Ill show my results, if anyone else want to as well.

[Ozymandias]

Holy Crap....Grim Monolith is UNBANNEDED!

So what do you think would be the proper cut for Monolith? i can see how Street Wraith would get cut, but I wouldn't cut Manamorphose, it fixes your manas.

The thing is, Street Wraith also helps draw through you the deck, so idk. I would probably test cutting the Wraith for Monolith. Ill show my results, if anyone else want to as well.

Manamorphose pros:
Adds to storm count.
Imprints for worthwhile colors
Fixes mana to cast Tinder Wall or even sb wish targets.

Street Wraith pros:
A better topdeck with less than two mana on the board.
Doesn't require committing mana.
Can't be countered.
Better to dig for SB cards (but best is aggro mull)

I am going to cut wraith.

[thepenguin99]

I have been messing with taking out street wraith for grim monolith. While I haven't done enough testing for any truely conclusive results my initial impression is that it makes the deck worse. It seems like most of the time when I draw a monolith I am thinking...I wish this cycled.

[Augustas]

is it possible to play it without leds?

[thepenguin99]

is it possible to play it without leds?

Possible yes. Reasonable no.

[jtwilkins]

Possible yes. Reasonable no.

+1

[Vacrix]

Does anyone play Welder in the board anymore? 4 Swarm 4 Welder postboard. They can't STP everything!!
I'll be testing it soon in my SI board so any comments on it are appreciated.

[Ando]

is it possible to play it without leds?

Technically. I play a list with 2 Chrome Moxen and 0 LED. Last time I played it I had 1 Mox and I went 4-0. Multiple T1 Belcher kills, but also more play-belcher-activate-next-turn action that I would like.

And I'm cutting black for monolits, going for 2 to 1 land. But, as previously stated, I don't have many of the good cards for Belcher.

[MMogg]

I can see how Monolith helps if you actually are going for the Charbelcher kill, but maybe it's just me and my bad draws, I go for EtW about 80% of the time, either through drawing an EtW or through drawing Burning Wish. In the case of the EtW win condition, Grim Monolith is particularly worse (imho... there are a lot better/more experienced Belcher pilots than me) because I need that and if I'm going the Burning Wish route, need . I know no one is talking about/considering taking out Seething Song and for good reason, but I cannot see how Monolith can take over any other slot (because at the Desperate Ritual slot you lose your valuable ). Manamorphose is too vital for securing consistency, not to mention as a storm builder. Wraith, too is a storm builder in that it allows you to cycle to a card more useable/able to accrue storm (not implying it adds storm through cycling). In short, Monolith, if you cast it, adds only to the potential to go into Charbelcher, but for me, that isn't often enough to warrant removing something else at this point. Rite of Flame --> Desperate Ritual-->Seething Song is a ramper that cannot afford a monkey wrench like colourless mana.

[Vacrix]

Manamorphose isn't really vital for consistency. Its a flex slot cycler that color fixes. It also counts as a spell so I prefer it to Street Wraith.
Grim Monolith is pretty much a colorless Cabal Ritual in Belcher. It adds a net of 1, but its usually just going to be for a 1 time use. Even so, I agree it won't see much play.

Also, MMogg, have you tried playing with Spoils belcher? It relies much less on EtW.

[MMogg]

Manamorphose isn't really vital for consistency. Its a flex slot cycler that color fixes. It also counts as a spell so I prefer it to Street Wraith.
Grim Monolith is pretty much a colorless Cabal Ritual in Belcher. It adds a net of 1, but its usually just going to be for a 1 time use. Even so, I agree it won't see much play.

Also, MMogg, have you tried playing with Spoils belcher? It relies much less on EtW.

Again, maybe it's just my draws, but I use Manamorphose a lot for casting Timber Wall. Without it, I would have a lot less consistency because those spells are vital for mana ramping. As you said, it's [Monolith] a colourless add one, and I don't think the deck needs that. Street Wraith is proof that the deck doesn't actually want more cards, it would probably be happier with fewer cards.

I've never seen a Spoils Belcher list, but I did playtest Spoils of the Vault in the Street Wraith slot and didn't like it as much. Yeah, I went for Belcher kills more often, but I also shat myself (burned myself to death) too often. =(

[GreenOne]

Grim Monolith is not only a colorless +1 mana. It's also a mana you can store for the turn after (like Tinder Wall), to be protected aginst daze with your belcher, or to activate it the same turn you play it, to avoid disenchant effects.
The colorless mana issue is actually mitigated by manamorphose, that can convert a colorless into anything, and by seething song/desperate ritual.

I'm cutting dark ritual from the list, now being entirely red/green. Here is it:
// Lands
1 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

The SB might need some work, but the MD is quite solid.

[Vacrix]

Could you provide a sample hand for why you'd want to 'store mana'? I can't see too many situations where that would be profitable unless you get a really good untap phase (Taiga + Chrome Mox or something).

[yankeedave]

Yeah, i have one for ya! You have mulliganed to 5 and have a hand of Land Grant, Chrome Mox, Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens and Grim Monolith. You cast the Land Grant getting the forest of your choice, Chrome Mox imprinting EtW and then make Grim Monolith and pass the turn. Next turn, you uptap and draw Seething Song. You tap the Mox and the Monolith for and , cast Seething Song, giving you 5 and , then cast Goblin Charbelcher, leaving and , then tap your land for the 3rd mana and Belch for the win! Now, had this been a Street Wraith, this wouldn't have worked, as you would have had to get at least 2 more mana sources to go off!

[Ozymandias]

If you go land/mox-> Tinder Wall/Rite of Flame-> Grim Monolith, you end up with 4 mana the next turn

[Vacrix]

Alright. Thats plausible. I guess it improves the consistency then. Has anyone one goldfished it yet to determine how it changes X% turn 1, X% turn 2, etc.

[cb4]

I have done some goldfish testing with monolith in for street wraith in the standard RG list. I played 25 games on the play and 25 games on the draw. I mulliganed any 6-7 card hand that did not have at least one win condition (belcher, ETW, burning wish). I also mulled if I did not have mana to win with another card or two. I wrote the turn the deck "went off" after each game. "going off" meant belching for 20+ or making 10 plus goblins. Here are my results...


ON THE PLAY (25 games)
T1- 4 games (3 gobs, 1 belch) 16%
T2- 9 games (2 gobs, 7 belch) 36% (1 belch failed and did 12 dam)
T3- 4 games (2 gobs, 2 belch) 16%
T4- 5 games (5 belch) 20%
T5- 3 games (3 belch) 12%

Mulled 11 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 20%
Mulled to 5 cards 16%

ON THE DRAW (25 games)
T1- 14 games (6 gobs, 8 belch) 56%
T2- 6 games (1 gobs, 5 belch) 24%
T3- 3 games (2 gobs, 1 belch) 12%
T4- 1 game (belch) 4%
T5- 1 game (belch) 4%

Mulled 6 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 24%
Did not mull below 6 cards.

OVERALL (50 games)
T1- 36%
T2- 30%
T3- 14%
T4- 12%
T5- 8%

Mulled 17 times (34%)
Mulled to 6 cards (24%)
Mulled to 5 cards (10%)

I liked a couple things about monolith. The first is knowing the card in your hand to open. I have neard people say that sometimes street wraith will draw you into your win condition. However, I would not keep a hand without a win condition. Therefore, I am always looking for mana. It is nice to know exactly what you are working with.

Secondly, it is nice to store 3 mana in some situations. One I remember was an opener of mox, belcher, monolith, buring wish, LED, and lotus petal. This hand allowed me to go...

T1- mox imprint wish, petal, play monolith
T2- play belcher, play LED, sac LED to activate becher, WIN

This situation does not sem that rare and it appears monolith is great at enabling early wins with LED and belcher that would not be there without monolith.

The concern about not making red mana really didn't come up when going for the win. Even when you need 4RR for wish and empty, monlith is making 1 of those mana. When you are at 4-5 mana, you have at least 2 red. You use 2 of the other mana to cast monolith. If you need 4RR, then you cast monolith as your last ritual. Even a hand like wish, rite, rite, petal, monolith, monolith can go off turn 1.

T1- petal for red, rite (RR), rite (RRRR), monolith and tap (3RR), use 2 colorless for monolith and tap (4RR), wish for ETW (3R), ETW for 14 goblins.


I think wraith filled a role when we didn't have another rital in RG. Now we do. I would not cut manamorphose becuase it is too important for fixing mana being cast or imprnited and for upping storm counts. I would cut monolith or manamorphose first when SB'ing. I would probably cut monolith if bringing in green cards like xantid swarm.

Here is my list with current SB...
// Lands
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence


I cut tendrils in the side because I never use it.

[Vacrix]

Nice results cb4!
Do you have a standard of comparison though? It looks really slow to me because I play SI. Does anyone have results w/out Grim Monolith to compare? Also, its a little unclear your results. Whats the exact number of times you won on turn 1, 2 ,etc. I can't tell from looking at your info because some say (6 gobs, 8 belch) so I'd imagine thats 6 EtW but when do they go all the way T2 or 3, and does the Belcher connect or misfire?

Also, how does Welder look post-board? It allows you to make use of your Monolith even after it got used for T: Add 3.

[jtwilkins]

I have done some goldfish testing with monolith in for street wraith in the standard RG list. I played 25 games on the play and 25 games on the draw. I mulliganed any 6-7 card hand that did not have at least one win condition (belcher, ETW, burning wish). I also mulled if I did not have mana to win with another card or two. I wrote the turn the deck "went off" after each game. "going off" meant belching for 20+ or making 10 plus goblins. Here are my results...


ON THE PLAY (25 games)
T1- 4 games (3 gobs, 1 belch) 16%
T2- 9 games (2 gobs, 7 belch) 36% (1 belch failed and did 12 dam)
T3- 4 games (2 gobs, 2 belch) 16%
T4- 5 games (5 belch) 20%
T5- 3 games (3 belch) 12%

Mulled 11 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 20%
Mulled to 5 cards 16%

ON THE DRAW (25 games)
T1- 14 games (6 gobs, 8 belch) 56%
T2- 6 games (1 gobs, 5 belch) 24%
T3- 3 games (2 gobs, 1 belch) 12%
T4- 1 game (belch) 4%
T5- 1 game (belch) 4%

Mulled 6 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 24%
Did not mull below 6 cards.

OVERALL (50 games)
T1- 36%
T2- 30%
T3- 14%
T4- 12%
T5- 8%

Mulled 17 times (34%)
Mulled to 6 cards (24%)
Mulled to 5 cards (10%)

I liked a couple things about monolith. The first is knowing the card in your hand to open. I have neard people say that sometimes street wraith will draw you into your win condition. However, I would not keep a hand without a win condition. Therefore, I am always looking for mana. It is nice to know exactly what you are working with.

Secondly, it is nice to store 3 mana in some situations. One I remember was an opener of mox, belcher, monolith, buring wish, LED, and lotus petal. This hand allowed me to go...

T1- mox imprint wish, petal, play monolith
T2- play belcher, play LED, sac LED to activate becher, WIN

This situation does not sem that rare and it appears monolith is great at enabling early wins with LED and belcher that would not be there without monolith.

The concern about not making red mana really didn't come up when going for the win. Even when you need 4RR for wish and empty, monlith is making 1 of those mana. When you are at 4-5 mana, you have at least 2 red. You use 2 of the other mana to cast monolith. If you need 4RR, then you cast monolith as your last ritual. Even a hand like wish, rite, rite, petal, monolith, monolith can go off turn 1.

T1- petal for red, rite (RR), rite (RRRR), monolith and tap (3RR), use 2 colorless for monolith and tap (4RR), wish for ETW (3R), ETW for 14 goblins.


I think wraith filled a role when we didn't have another rital in RG. Now we do. I would not cut manamorphose becuase it is too important for fixing mana being cast or imprnited and for upping storm counts. I would cut monolith or manamorphose first when SB'ing. I would probably cut monolith if bringing in green cards like xantid swarm.

Here is my list with current SB...
// Lands
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence


I cut tendrils in the side because I never use it.

Wow great work and thanks for the stats. I think this points out the possibility of drawing vs playing. I think Belcher's main problem is dealing with counters or road blocks such as pithing needle, medling mage and chalice. I would be interesting to crunch numbers of getting out a swarm, attacking then pulling off a belcher or maybe pulling of warrens as fast as you can but not belchering until you get off a swarm attack.

[Vacrix]

Wow great work and thanks for the stats. I think this points out the possibility of drawing vs playing. I think Belcher's main problem is dealing with counters or road blocks such as pithing needle, medling mage and chalice. I would be interesting to crunch numbers of getting out a swarm, attacking then pulling off a belcher or maybe pulling of warrens as fast as you can but not belchering until you get off a swarm attack.

Hence..... Goblin Welder. What are the thoughts about this? Consider the following play. Chrome Mox, (imprint Manamorphose) Goblin Welder, LED.
Next turn, Sac the LED, Float R, Tap Welder sacing Mox getting Belcher from your grave.. and activate. It also makes use of your Grim Monoliths after you have used them for T: 3.