@Picelli: I also started from Bryant's last list and decided to try out the added cantrip route (I've went -2 MT, -1 Mox; +2 Preordain, +1 Chain of Vapor) while it's been good in the limited amount of testing I've done so far; I really like the look of the 9 protection spells in your list and I'm gonna give it a try.
A couple of questions though: do you think 1 Grip (and 1 Wipe Away) in the side will be enough (I understand you also have discard and 2 Pyroblast that can deal with Counterbalance but obviously those are often answered quite easily (Brainstorm and counters) )? Why no EtW as a wish target? And is Thoughtseize still needed as a wish target now that you 9 pieces of protection MD?
I've also considered adding 1 or 2 Cabal Ritual but so far I haven't had any issues with getting mana so as long as that's not an issue, I think those slots can be put to better use.
Thanks
Relative newbie to this version of Tendrils. I've played ANT for a long time, but recent developments demand that I find a new outlet for my storming needs. A few questions:
Is Diminishing Returns actually good? There has not been a single point where I've wanted to wish for it, although I'm willing to admit that this may be due to inexperience with the deck. The list I'm using after a few days of testing is kind of a mix between Bryant's and Tommy Kolowith's from GP Chicago. I noticed that Tommy does not run Returns, and atm, I have removed it from my board as well.
Does this deck not want a couple more rituals? Again, I've only been testing since the banning, but adding two Cabal Ritual past the typical 8 rituals has really improved my consistency.
Is Burning Wish more often used as a set up spell or as a tutor while going off? How often should I be wishing for Infernal Tutor the turn before I go off? Often I find I will be one mana short of wishing for it on my combo turn.
Why Shattering Spree over Meltdown in the SB? Just as a measure against counters? RR can be a challenge without a ritual sometimes, let alone RRR.
I had a longer post typed then decided to be a moron and switch pages.
You said it yourself, Returns is there for when you're short mana to win with Wish -> Tutor -> Nauseam.
I tried a list like Piceli with two thoughtsieze. I didn't dislike it, but against non-blue the deck always had too many protection spells. Every match-up won't be against blue guys. I feel like going up to 9 protection spells is kind of a lot. I also feel like you guys are making a mistake cutting Mox number four. Against real opponents you'll have to win in sticky situations at low life totals. I wish all of my opponents were like magic workstation kids, but unfortunately, they're not.
I also wished Chrome Moxes would not be card disadvantage and terrible topdeck cards, but unfortunately, they are. I also too a second lock to your last tourney report, and was impressed by how often you mulled. Is it me, or your list gives some problems in terms of inital hands' consistency?Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
9 protection spells are too much, you're right. 8 is acceptable, though. The point is that I can't really find what to fit in the 60th slot. I'd try to stick with 10 cantrips (perhaps you'd go for 9 and play the 4th Mox), but I don't want to open with 3-cantrips hand where all I can do is optmizing in the first 2 turns, exausting my Gemstones or doing pretty nothing. This deck is designed to win fast opening hands that start from a good scultping point (at least, an acceleration, a tutor, a protection), or to lose pretty fast with little weakenings. So, basically, I feel the 60th slot can be filled with whatever suits you best.
I have the feeling that even this deck suffers a little from Mystical's departure, let's not be hypocrites. It's just not the same thing anymore to have a cantrip or a protection instead of that "Eot-->U: take the missing piece you desire".
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So, now that MT is gone, we have 3-4 slots available or aguable (2MT, 1 Mox, 1 MD bounce) which can be filled with additional cantrips, gas, or protection.
7-8 MD protections were a standard call, but if the metagame shift to aggro and board control, it looks like those 7 would be enough, huh ?
So Cantrips and Gas might be better options.
As a former (and average) ANT Player I'd say that 10 Cantrips are a lot in TES (DDFT or NLS is another matter).
I'm currently testing 8 (4 BS, 2 Ponder, 2 Preordain) and, still, they often clog my starting hands, slowing me down 1-2 turns (and chaining cantrips is really annoying).
But, to compensate, I've put back the 2 SSG in Bryant Cook's ol'TES list (along with CoV) trying to gain some speed and IMS.
I have to playtest with my Legacy circle (MWS kids are so annoying), but my current goldfishes look good (i'm trying to combo of T1 or T2/3 with at least 1 protection spell, or T4/5 with 2 protect and low life setting). Still, I often go for a fast ETW kill than a lethal Tendrils cause I've had hard times upping my storm count w/o using wished IGG nor D.Returns with this build.
For this last point, not sure it comes from the build iself, or the player I am though...
I'd like to discuss a bit about how to sideboard. Tha departure of Mystical tutor now makes it impossible to run Silver bullets, so we have to build a way more "squared" sideboard that allows us to run cards useful in several matchups. The other problem is that we should be able, against every MU, to bring in 2-3 cards AND leave a Wish target in the sb, and this is very difficult for a sideboard that's filled for roughly a half with wish targets.
This is what I'm trying now. My main purpose is to find a sideboarding plan that may give us a decent mu against Bant Countertop, which is easily an autopilot deck with many goodies (post side they have Fow, Pierce, Daze, Gaddock, and CB) that's extremely popular in my area.
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1 Infernal tutor
1 ToA
1 Etw
1 IGG
These are the storm engines, wishable. No balance of power because I don't want to fill the sb with situational engines. No more diminishing returns because i play 3 mox and more lands, I love storm combo to be more solid even if it's TES. No grapeshot because it has become Pyroclasm.
1 Pyroclasm-->God against bant and non-Zoo aggro. Wrathing all the guys giving exalted shit is awesome, as well as killing a Mage and a Teeg in one shot. IMO, way >> than Grapeshot now.
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spree/Meltdown
These are the utilities slots.
Now, how to fill the rest, keeping in consideration that, obviously, CB needs a lot of hate, and what I've written above?
1 Echoing truth-->multipurpose: stax, permanent hate, aggro.
1 Slaughter pact-->Zoo, aggro. Bant?
3 Pyroblast-->Merfolk, Tempo thresh, CB (still, everyone of us knows pyroblast is shitty against an already resolved Cb).
1 Krosan Grip (artifacts, CB).
1 Wipe Away (multi-purpose generic bouncer, Bant usually).
Other options: Carpet of Flowers (Tempo, to avoid our shitty manabase being raped), Chain of Vapor.
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Some ideas about siding:
-Bant, Pro bant, Supreme noob, Mystic shit and such: -1 Etw (EE coming post side), -1 Mox, -1/2 cabal rituals, -1 protection, +2/3 pyroblasts, +1 slaughter pact (or deathmark?), +1 wipe away, +1 Kgrip.
-Merfolk: -2 cabal rituals, -1 mox, +3 pyros.
-Artifact: -3 chants, +1 echoing truth, +1 wipe away, +1 grip.
-Zoo: -3 chants (or duress?), +1 slaughter pact, +1 pyroclasm (deathmark is cheaper as a wish target to be cast), +1 etruth.
-Reanimator: i don't know. I've got only Echoing truth for Iona in here as a relevant card.
-Tempo Threshold: -2 Cabal rituals, -1 Burning Wish (Snare), +3 pyros (not sure though, they're costy to be cast on the combo turn).
-Mirror: -1 dontknowwhat, +1 Thoughtseize.
-Dredge: -2 duress, +1 echoing truth, +1 else (Pyroblast?)
Anyone has different ideas about this? Keep in mind I'm currently testing with 14 lands, so it may turn out to be slightly different. One thing I don't want to do, though, is siding out cantrips to make solutions come in post sideboard. Cantrips are really useful, especially now that you have to dig for your solution.
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You definitely want 1 Eye of Nowhere in your Wishboard. Wishable Bounce is good I hear.
I had it in my board for ages and never had a chance to wish for it where I wanted to and where I could, both at the same time. So I guess you've had more luck with it. Since it's gone, I try to pay attention to when I might use it but those times remain limited. I personally don't think it's worth the slot.
Ok guys, I am starting to become a fan of this deck. Right now I currently play Belcher, and while it is fun, loses to FoW really hard. I have proxied this deck up and am testing, but I am having some trouble going off. I do play TPS is vintage, so I figured it would be easy to pick this deck up, but it isn't. I would goldfish turn 3 or 4 most of the time...could someone enlighten me a bit on whats going on?
I would keep hands, which seem great, but I end up fizzling. Maybe I am tutoring for the wrong card or something. I know that the deck is difficult to play, but Ill keep at it.
Thanks!
I don't really agree with cutting Returns, but if you feel it's nessesary go for it. I'm keeping it because I'm moving my sideboard Infernal to the maindeck after the change date. I'd rather have a more effective maindeck than sideboard. You'll get more use out of the tutor being maindeck than you will if it were in the sideboard.
Why on earth do people do this? I still don't understand it. Why would you ever wish for Clasm against "Non-Zoo" aggro when you could just get a card that helps you win? Grapeshot is a multipurpose card. I use it to win all the time, even when I'm not show boating. It's pretty easy to go storm 5 Burning Wish, Grapeshot for 6, then Tendrils for 14. When you have a weak hand. It's also great if you somehow manage to not get there with Tendrils and/or Empty the Warrens and have them at a low lifetotal.
Slaughter Pact, really? You say you want to build a more "Square" sideboard then put a card like this in here. It's better off being Chain of Vapor or Deathmark. Two deathmark would be better, that way if you ever needed to Wish twice it's there. Although, I still think the slot should be Chain. I'm also against only one artifact destruction spell. I too want to up Pyroblast to three.
-With Pyroclasm I wanted to point out that resetting Noble Hierarchs, Pridemage and multiple weenies that may cause troule is great against Bant, which wins in this way, super-exalting their guys and giving you a very narrow clock as well as strong disruption elements. Heck, they often keep 1 lander with double Hierarch. I guess Grapeshot is far weaker in this matchup. Grapeshot is a nice kill and all, and what you say about the chain with Tendrils is surely true, but how many times did you manage to pull that trick out? i mean, you need 8 mana, plus a Burning Wish resolving, and some other spells. If you can attest that it happens lots of time, and point me out the situations where you are more liely to pull this trick off (against non-Tempo decks, i guess), I can give it a try. Pyroclasm still remains strong, though.
-I could also pack the second Deathmark, but it takes 1 mana more and is usually played in the combo turn after having resolved a chant, against Gaddock Teeg. You really want teeg to stick to let your chant resolve. So I guess 1 mana less is pretty good.
Though, I can see the point of being Chain of Vapor, since I was lacking decent cards to put it into other matchups. But if Pact would become CoV, how would you get rid of Gaddock or the various hatebears against UGw countertop? siding in a single Deathmark and leaving Grapeshot as a wishable kill? Too slow, Imo.
-For the double artifact-hate spell, I can see double Shattering Spree, but really, is it still as effective as it used to be? You have lowered the number of lands producing R from 8 to 6, and only 1 of your 3 duals produce R. Im testing a Tundra maindeck (know it may turn out to be shitty, but it's nice to have another permanent land), and for me it's even worse. Too much time I just start with Underground Seas to make it enough effective, and since they're likely to wasteland you and keep you Rite of Flames off via Chalice; I see it very underpowered as of now in these TES builds which tend towards ANTish manabases.
-As for the Infernal maindeck, I still think it's one of the most worth BWish targets. Also, with 8 tutors maindeck i often opened clogged hands with 2 or 3 of them, and you easily realize it's not that fast to cast double Burning Wish tapping you out, since it's slow against aggro. Think of a hand like this:
Duress, Wish x2, Infernal, Brainstorm, Land, Silence.
The general point I've lately noticed is: what to take with burning Wish? It will be me, but sometimes there is not what I'm looking to go off in the sideboard. Tendrils usually comes at the end of the chain, Igg is usually not taken against blue, Thoughtseize is cute against blue, EtW is jut for turn 1-2 explosions. I wished so bad there was a mana acceleration in the sideboard, because that's what is often missing in my hand. A strong piece of acceleration.
At least wished IT is the shortcut for Ad Nauseam, which remains the best storm engine avaiable that wins alone.
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You shouldn't be boarding in Clasm anyway and you should certainly not be wishing for Clasm. You're playing the deck wrong. Your goal 100% of the time is trying to win the game. Killing a Hierarch doesn't help this. If you want an example of Grapeshot being better, my last report, round one versus U/w Scepter.
You're boarding in Wipeaway/Grip, possibly Echoing Truth, if you know they have Teeg you'll board in Chain of Vapor and Deathmark. Leaving Grapeshot in the sideboard. If you know they have Cannonist you'll bring in one of the two Shattering Spree. If you see hatebears game two bring in the last options game three.
I haven't had a problem yet. R to destroy a 2cc artifact is much better than 2R which happebed in the top 4 of my last report when I won through Nullrod.
Don't get me wrong it's a great wish target, however, I'd rather have a stronger maindeck. I'll board out the fourth Infernal tutor all the time, making it a wish target games two and three. However, game one you want the strongest deck possible.
@Piceli89
I am pretty sure there isn't a ritual effect that will net you mana once the 1R for Burning Wish is factored in. The TEPS decks from a couple extended seasons ago ran Channel the Suns out of the board. But that isnt really relevant here. Those deck were able to make more mana (while not losing their hand to LED) and the 4RG to wish for and cast Channel was more common, also it was used as a fixer to get to Mind's Desire mana.
On the topic of wish boards I feel like the 4th Infernal Tutor is necessary in the board. I've had a ton of games where it was the only line of play that didn't make me cast Empty the Warrens, which I really wish I could cut from the deck entirely.
It's not that I chose Pyroclasm over Grapeshot because it kills Hierarch. It's because it kills the same thing Grapeshot do (hatebears), with the added bonus of getting rid of many other critters which basically undo the opponent's gameplan.
Also, if you wish for Grapeshot and cast it the turn after, you need to power it by playing other spells, othr way it will be 1 damage for 1R. Pyrolasm cast the turn after (to avoid , say, Spell Pierce) is a same 2 damages to everybody on the field.
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I would not board Shattering Spree in against Bant ever, even if they play Canonist. Just because SS hits only that. I'd rather have way more than 2 between Wipe Away/Grip, because they're the only spells that can successfully get rid of Canonist, CB, and Gaddock; which are the prolems of that deck, along with counters. Chain of Vapor is useful to bounce Teeg one turn, but I'd still prefer to kill him via Deathmark in case things go wrong. Deathmark may also stop a RWM from killing us with super beats, and it's a removal spell that is useful even in the pre-combo turns, if you're suffering the the race they're making.
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As for artifucks: you took an example where Shattering Spree is clearly > to Deathmark, which is with Null Rod which is being played in Legacy by 1 deck among 1000 as a tech sb card; and , as a general case, as a solution to an artifact with cmc >0.
I was referring to those matchups where they rain you with t1 Cotv @1, t2 Trinisphere, t3 Crucible on a regular basis, and maybe they also have got a wasteland to start things going on, because that's how those decks usually roll. Now, try to find in these cases RRR with 2 USeas. That's where you need an effective way to get rid of them, and the fact that you're not playing an entirely R manabase decreases the value of Shattering Spree. Even meltdown would be slow in these situations, though (1 mana more), but at least it would require only 1 red mana.
Well, against Dragon Stompy at least Spree is a bomb.
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I'm running a list with LED, Chrome Mox, Petals, and 3 Mox Diamonds. 16 land, 4 of them count as Mountains. Burning Wish -> Pulverize is nice vs. Chalice@0.
Time Reversal {3}uu
Sorcery Mythic Rare
Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal.
So, is it the reason why they ban Mystical Tutor and let Burning Wish in the Legacy format ?!? :D
Still, the +1 in the cc hurts in comparison to D.Returns. And the SB D.Returns slot is debatable...
Not impressed, not wanted (in TES though, SI//'Reversal Storm' is another thing), especially as a F***ing Mythic !
Interesting card... Pretty much a straight-up reprint of Timetwister with 1U tacked on. Almost strictly worse than Diminishing Returns in a Burning Wish deck though. I like that Wiz had the balls to print this - it shows the strength of Mythics. If you printed cards like this at Rare it would totally screw up the Limited pool. Probably won't reach a high $ value without some absurd shenanigans to abuse it with in Standard.
This might work in some sort of B/U SI shell... now that I think about it.
@ Mystical Tutor slots
Has anyone considered putting in those old tutors that TES used to play like Spoils of the Vault or Plunge into Darkness. I guess the recent inclusion of Ad Nauseum ruins these tutors but it seems that Bryant has been winning more with goblins and grapeshot than with Ad Nauseum so...
Just a thought...
@ Bryant's comment about main-deck Infernal Tutor
I tried this and it seemed a lot slower. I think the extra infernal tutor become hard to get rid of when you have no LED. I find myself having to spend more time to set up because I have to get rid of the infernal tutors in my hand.
I took TES to a local tournament today after not playing it for a few months and played against Imperial Painter, ANT, and Solidarity. I was surprised how often manafixing was an issue when I run 4 city of brass+4 gemstone mine and found myself using Ad Nauseam instead of more reliable methods like IGG to win. Has anyone else run into mana issues or have any tips about how to rework the deck to make it less of a problem? I'm considering a 4th Chrome Mox and possibly another Volcanic Island to help.
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