[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[sunshine]

Chasm and Tabernacle are both pretty sad times. I've toyed with the idea of Magus of the Moon as a DR target as well.

[Nidd]

Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.

^No one other than sunshine can comment on this?

I'm really starting to believe that the death of Reanimator is the chance for Dredge to sleeve up Iona again, if only for the SB. People won't think they'll see her again I think. At least not that fast.

[SHABOOGS]

Hello everyone,

I started building this deck last week and I have to say that I have been learning a lot from this thread on how to build and use a dredge deck. I would appreciate your feedback on my current deck list and if you would also be so kind enough to provide hints/tips on how to use this deck properly. There were still times when I lost even though I had more than half of my library in my graveyard. I'm still in the play testing stages so feel free to comment. Anyways, here's the current deck list that I'm trying out:

Main Deck:

Enchantments:
Bridge from Below - 4

Creatures:
Putrid Imp - 4
Golgari Grave Troll - 4
Stinkweed Imp - 4
Ichorid - 4
Tireless Tribe - 4
Golgari Thug - 4
Sphinx of Lost Truths - 1
Flame-Kin Zealot - 1

Spells:
Cabal Therapy - 4
Careful Study - 4
Dread Return - 3
Breakthrough - 3

Lands:
Gemstone Mine - 4
City of Brass - 4
Cephalid Coliseum - 4

Sideboard:
Chain of Vapor - 3
Ancient Grudge - 3
Nature's Claim - 3
Darkblast - 3
Angel of Despair - 1
Terastodon - 1
Ancestor's Chosen - 1

Since I just finished building this deck, the sideboard is subject to change after I test this at our local tourney scene. I do have a few concerns tho:

1. I'm planning on adding a couple of Tarnished Citadels on that list but I'm not sure what to cut. I was thinking of -1 Ichorid and -1 Tireless Tribe/Golgari Thug but I'm so enjoying the 8 discard outlets and 12 dredgers configuration.

2. I'd love to add Iona, Shield of Emeria (Meta call) and was thinking of cutting Sphinx of Lost Truths but I'm not sure if that's a good move since the Sphinx empties your library in an instant.

3. I'm also thinking of adding bloodghast and undiscovered paradise in the future but that would depend on the results of the tournament. XD

Pisawt!

[bum_man]

Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.

This is situation would be true if your deck maindeck's Terastodon, Primus, or Angel of Despair game 1 or manage to Iona before he becomes online . Post-board this is where it gets tricky since this is the time when they're dedicated hate like Wheel of Sun and Moon/ Leyline/Crypt comes out and stops the deck from Iona-ing at all. In any case, you would need permanent hate other than DR targets. Assuming that this deck doesn't kill as fast, Grudge and Terastodon along with the speed with which this deck goes off would be the x-factor.

[/QUOTE]I'm really starting to believe that the death of Reanimator is the chance for Dredge to sleeve up Iona again, if only for the SB. People won't think they'll see her again I think. At least not that fast.[/QUOTE]
I think so too. Assuming that the meta reverts back to the pre-reanimator meta. Dredge would do quite better since hate wouldn't be as dedicated to the graveyard. Problem is it might steer sideboards towards boarding against aggro decks, so maybe FKZ in game 1 to Iona in game 2/3 sounds just about right. Do I make sense?

@SHABOOGS: About DR targets? Sphinx into Iona is just as good as Sphinx into FKZ imho. About the citadels, way back when before I played bloodghasts I played 2 Paradises in place of 1 Tireless and 1 Ichorid. 3 of each seem to be sufficient enough. Oh and if you plan on playing Iona I feel your meta has alot of red and non-blue shiz, have you though of darkblast to kill off little creatures? I used to and do still play them over thugs just because its a great utility card.

[Digital Devil]

have you though of darkblast to kill off little creatures? I used to and do still play them over thugs just because its a great utility card.

That was the same thing I was thinking about. I currently have 3 Leyline of the Void in my sideboard. Now, Reanimator can Exhume huge creatures, but can't exhume itself due to the banning of Mystical Tutor. Seeing that the 3 Leylines were dedicated slots against Reanimator and Dredge, shouldn't I swap 'em for 3 Darkblasts? I see them coming in against the mirror, Goblin, and Survival, so they're not wasted slots, I guess.

[SHABOOGS]

@SHABOOGS: About DR targets? Sphinx into Iona is just as good as Sphinx into FKZ imho. About the citadels, way back when before I played bloodghasts I played 2 Paradises in place of 1 Tireless and 1 Ichorid. 3 of each seem to be sufficient enough. Oh and if you plan on playing Iona I feel your meta has alot of red and non-blue shiz, have you though of darkblast to kill off little creatures? I used to and do still play them over thugs just because its a great utility card.

So Sphinx + Iona and Sphinx + FKZ have the same impact, right? What about Iona + FKZ in the main deck? Or just go -1 Golgari Thug +1 Iona making it Sphinx, Iona, and FKZ? I just tried your suggestion with 3 Tireless Tribe and 3 Ichorid and it's looking good so far. ^__^ I was thinking of shutting those mono colored decks with Iona rather than Darkblast in the main deck because it reduces the chances of me blowing off my bridges in the process in certain scenarios. And I also make use of Golgari Thug as Ichorid food more often than as a dredger.

[sunshine]

I would strongly argue against ditching Thug for Darkblast - especially in builds with a higher land count. We'll see how popular Goblins becomes in the near future but in almost every other MU Thugs are going to be stronger - and even then Thug still pulls his weight if you can stick two mana sources through their Wastes and Ports. I could see dropping to two Thugs to make room for some number of Darkblast being justified, beyond that just seems bad (IMHO).

Thug is huge when you're dredging more cautiously games two and three. Dancing a Thug and Narcomoeba is a great way to incrementally build tokens while exposing as little of your GY as possible. A recurring blocker that leaves behind 2/2 tokens and puts Narcomoebas back on top of your library essentially trumps strategies that aim to win through the red zone.

I personally find myself dredging Thugs very often - even with Stinkweeds and Trolls in my graveyard. Similarly I find myself using Stinkweeds to feed Ichorids often even with Thugs in my graveyard.

[bum_man]

So Sphinx + Iona and Sphinx + FKZ have the same impact, right? What about Iona + FKZ in the main deck? Or just go -1 Golgari Thug +1 Iona making it Sphinx, Iona, and FKZ?

I think I wasn't able to say what I had in mind in my last post. @_@ What I was trying to say was since FKZ and Iona are both "Finishers." DR targets intended on closing out the game then and there. It would be logical to pair either FKZ or Iona with Sphinx if you plan on playing only 2 DR targets, since Sphinx help dredge more of the library. It makes it easier for you to return your "finisher," either FKZ or Iona. This logic applies most especially with FKZ, without Sphinx I don't believe FKZ is worth running at all because without the dredging power given by Sphinx it's harder dredge into something lethal during the turn you dredge into FKZ. I used to run just 11 dredgers, 3 of those were darkblasts. 3 targets, Cephalid Sage, FKZ, and Reveillark. This was pre-bloodghast. On a side note, it was the baseline that I used when tinkering with the deck.

I just tried your suggestion with 3 Tireless Tribe and 3 Ichorid and it's looking good so far. ^__^

3 Ichorids, 3 tribes, 14 lands, 3 breakthroughs, 4 studies, 3 targets and 3 returns was personally the most solid build I've played with since picking-up the deck 2 years ago. I recommend using it as a baseline when building the deck. Then tinker the configuration starting from there. ^^

I was thinking of shutting those mono colored decks with Iona rather than Darkblast in the main deck because it reduces the chances of me blowing off my bridges in the process in certain scenarios. And I also make use of Golgari Thug as Ichorid food more often than as a dredger.

Sunshine does make a great point. In connection with what he said, this is my logic behind darkblast. Game 1 and Game 2/3 at times I play this deck like a combo deck, get rid of hate then combo-off. I don't have any problems using darkblast since its reusable utility that I could use for one mana to knock-off lavamancers, confidants, jailers, lackeys, spellstutter sprites, cursecatchers to clear the way so I can combo-off quickly. That's just me but I really enjoy Darkblast's utility. When the game slows down Thug has an edge being a recurring blocker that creates tokens and returns creatures, with a chance of knocking off your bridges too at times. It has utility in its own right. The problem is you need a stable 2 land mana base. It's a hella great way to piss off goyf players though. Looking at it now, I probably call it a meta call or a preference call. A slow blue filled, goyf filled meta is great for thug, while a more aggresive meta, I believe darkblast has a slight edge, that's just me though.

[SHABOOGS]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Now it's just a call between Thugs and Darkblast. I was actually thinking of having both MD but I wasn't sure of what configuration to use. Since I'm going with bum_man's configuration of 3 Ichorids, 3 tribes, 14 lands, 3 breakthroughs, 4 studies, 3 targets and 3 returns, I was thinking of having a 2/1 split for Thugs and Darkblast. But I feel that 1 Darkblast isn't enough if I'm putting it MD. I wish I could at least get a 2/2 split for Thugs and Darkblast but that would mean that I would have to cut 1 DR taget and choose between Sphinx + Iona, Sphinx + FKZ, or Iona + FKZ. Unless there are other cards I can cut off my MD (Are there any?). Anyways, here's the current list that I'll be using for this week's tournaments:

Main Deck:

Enchantments:
Bridge from Below - 4

Creatures:
Putrid Imp - 4
Golgari Grave Troll - 4
Stinkweed Imp - 4
Golgari Thug - 3
Ichorid - 3
Tireless Tribe - 3
Iona, Shield of Emeria - 1
Sphinx of Lost Truths - 1
Flame-Kin Zealot - 1

Spells:
Cabal Therapy - 4
Careful Study - 4
Dread Return - 3
Breakthrough - 3

Lands:
Gemstone Mine - 4
City of Brass - 4
Cephalid Coliseum - 4
Tarnished Citadel - 2

Sideboard:
Chain of Vapor - 3
Ancient Grudge - 3
Nature's Claim - 3
Darkblast - 3
Angel of Despair - 1
Terastodon - 1
Ancestor's Chosen - 1

[sunshine]

The easiest cut for you right now - everything else aside - is one of the DR targets. Personally I'd drop FKZ. FKZ gives you some flashy finishes but a large percentage of the time those are games you're going to win anyway. Also, depending on your local meta, FKZ will likely be your most boarded out card which makes it seem rather superfluous when you consider that the game one win percentage for this deck is amazing even with as little as 0 dedicated DR targets.

[YigSnakeDaddy]

I agree with Sunshine there. FKZ can be an incredibly superflous card. It's not a problem-solver, it's just winmore.
Should you ever run into trouble, FKZ won't turn the game around whereas Iona, Angel of Despair or Terastodon might be able to do it.

[jimirynk]

Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.

MU's almost impossible,
chasm lock,
tabernacle,
can kill bridges with wasting factories and your therapy's are dead,
bog is a soild 1 of md,
e.e md,
wasteland is VERY STRONG against us,
1 tormonds crypt is common and/or 1 in the board seals the mu,
intuition for crypt/academy/loam,
intuition for tabernacle loam chasm,
crop rotation for any of the lands,
gamble for any target..
Soooo many plans of attack G1!
Are therapy's are dead for the most part,
and after board leyline is common..

I also believe lands to be the best deck after mystical getting banned.
I'm not trying to shoot down this deck, it's my favorite deck in 1.5, but if you plan on going x/0 x/1 x/2 at a gp with a deck that can lose games to it's own draw's, if day 1 is 11 rounds you have to win 9 rounds just to day 2.

[SHABOOGS]

The easiest cut for you right now - everything else aside - is one of the DR targets. Personally I'd drop FKZ. FKZ gives you some flashy finishes but a large percentage of the time those are games you're going to win anyway. Also, depending on your local meta, FKZ will likely be your most boarded out card which makes it seem rather superfluous when you consider that the game one win percentage for this deck is amazing even with as little as 0 dedicated DR targets.

Thanks for the feedback. I tried the Thug/Narcomoeba trick and I enjoyed it a lot. I learned a whole new different play style for dredge. ^__^

I kinda like FKZ for some strange reason. Kinda helps me ensure my G1 against combo decks via racing them w/ a turn 2/3 kill. I'll keep the current configuration for this week's tournament and I'll prolly decide if I'll cut the DR targets and/or add Darkblast MD depending on the results of the tournament (MU).

BTW, what's your take on Burning Inquiry as a replacement for Careful Study?

Thanks again!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

BTW, what's your take on Burning Inquiry as a replacement for Careful Study?

Thanks again!

Seems alright game 1, but post SB I would rather not help my opponent draw into hate... The discard is random, but that is still not enough to make me feel safe at least.

[Digital Devil]

Hi guys, I'm willing to play @ a 30-40 men tournament next sunday, so I need to ask you a few things. I know 8 people will bring NOBant, 3 will bring Survival, 3 will bring Merfolk, 1 will bring UWR Landstill, the rest of the meta is unknown except I'm expecting someone will play Zoo, and also the mirror, since I'm one out of three hypothetical Dredge players, here. No Reanimator, no ANT, no Lands, no Enchantress. Seems like Dredge would be an interesting choice (well, I only own this deck, of course I'm playing it...). After intensive playtesting, I returned to the build I was familiar with, the one with Iona as my only DR target. Playing with only GGT makes me feel fragile, especially g2, while an early Iona can make you forget about that Crypt/Relic, since it's three turns to go.

LIST:
------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return
------------------------------------------------
This is the build I've always played IRL, and I think I won't ever change it. The difficult part is how to reach perfection, how to make my sideboard work properly, and *what* to play in my sideboard. I was tinkering with something like this:

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen

Claim is a must. Half of the field is unknown to me, so there could still be Leyline/Wheel/Planar Void. Also, if I'm playing the mirror match, I need answers to Leyline. No Blazing Archons, so no Chain of Vapor. Grudge is the obvious one. Faeries took my own Leyline's spots since they're far more efficient against the mirror, and they synergize better with the deck's gameplan. I'll bring in Darkblast against Survival, the mirror, and if Goblins will show up, I'll know what to do. Angel of Despair is against Enchantress/Stax - I still don't know if there will be any, but I'm playing AoD because of the Windborn Muse/Spike Weaver trend Survival players tend to follow. Ancestor's Chosen comes in against NOBant and decks with a fast clock, or that can deal a set amount of damage. I was thinking about Pithing Needle in the sideboard, but I don't know what to cut, and even then, I still have to obtain 'em.

[Benobi]

Hey all, I'm a long-time Standard player trying to break into Legacy. I have a decent grip on the format and I know this deck works, but I'm not confident in my ability to play it post-sideboard, and I'd kinda like to see some games in action. Does anyone know of any good sites for watching replay videos of Ichorid matches?

[Bryant Cook]

Is there a reason other than Jailer to play Darkblast?

[sunshine]

Is there a reason other than Jailer to play Darkblast?

I don't run the card myself but it kills pretty much everything Goblins has, Hierarchs, and other random 1 toughness dudes (recurring Spore Frog is kinda gross...). With two mana available you can start killing creatures with two toughness - most notably Teeg and MMage. It's biggest benefit though is the fact that it can start your dredging without a discard outlet as long as your opponent is trying to apply any pressure.

Personally, I've found it underwhelming as more than a 1-of. Jailer is a pain like you said, but I can't remember the last time someone played a Jailer against me and I'd rather just have Firestorms anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't run the card myself but it kills pretty much everything Goblins has, Hierarchs, and other random 1 toughness dudes (recurring Spore Frog is kinda gross...). With two mana available you can start killing creatures with two toughness - most notably Teeg and MMage. It's biggest benefit though is the fact that it can start your dredging without a discard outlet as long as your opponent is trying to apply any pressure.

Personally, I've found it underwhelming as more than a 1-of. Jailer is a pain like you said, but I can't remember the last time someone played a Jailer against me and I'd rather just have Firestorms anyway.

Thank you. I was looking at lists and couldn't figure out why it's actually in there, it seems weak. I've also haven't seen a jailer in a sideboard in a long time.

I'm considering building this for local events, I'm running a pretty standard maindeck. However, I'm wondering why no one runs needle in the board?

This is my sideboard...

4x Pithing Needle
3x Nature's Claim
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Terrastodon (In all honesty it's half the reason I want to play this deck)
1x Ancestor's Chosen

What do you guy's think?

[menace13]

Dark Blast sees more Vintage play for BoBs,Welders. Same with Needles in regards to SB for Ichorid, mostly for Time Vault, but has shown up in a few Legacy Dredge lists. Reanimator uses Needles to fight GY hate no reason why Dredge can not. SB looks good, although i like Firestorm too much to not include.