[Deck] Death and Taxes

[DalkonCledwin]

While I do agree with Vacrix that the wastelock is a good idea. I do not think that diluting our deck's sideboarding strategy that much is all that good of an idea. I think that either Cataclysm or Armageddon should be sufficient for this strategy (preferably Cataclysm). Because if they do not counter the card, the card can set them back several turns if not indefinitely without really affecting our strategy all that much at all. It is a huge advantage that we can win the game because of. Where as the wastelock is limited to destroying one land a turn, and even that is really weak if they manage to get a crucible online.

[Vacrix]

Well I wasn't considering it a replacement to Cataclysm. I suggested that a few pages back as the first thing to run post-MT ban. I think its a good supplemental strategy if Landstill gets really popular or something (or its heavy in someone's local meta). Not only does Crucible help to recover from a Cataclysm or Armageddon, it also facilitates Wastelock, and makes Standstill completely dead. They might have their manlands but if we have at least one waste... it don't make no difference. They are forced to get rid of it.

Also.. Choke is quite good for people playing the green splash.

[Finn]

Cataclysm is not a new and untested card. We have some reliable testing from a while ago. It was very good against:

Goblins
Landstill
Stax
Lands
Enchantress
(Merfolk did not exist then, and I am not sure I have a good idea of how good it is there. Also, I don't care: we kill Merfolk)
(Zoo did not exist in any meaningful form. I really am not sure here either.)

With the talk that the field is going to look more like Landstill, Zoo, Lands, and Enchantress there seems to be something to the idea of bringing Cataclysm back at least as a SB card. After all, the decks that we really can't bring it in against, aggro-control w/blue we crush into little pieces already.

[Tanarin]

Yeah, cataclysm just seems like the best card we have avaliable to us to help in the Landstill matchup. The fact it helps against enchantress, (Another pain in the ass deck for us,) is a HUGE bonus. I also think going with manlands ourselves, Factories most likely, will be another boon for us to include in the deck. Doing so though means losing one of Wasteland or Port most likely, unless we want to risk mana screw by having only lands that generate colorless and as an effect also screwing us if BtB or PoP hit the stack.

[Joe_C]

I played around with a few lists that ran cataclysm maindeck, the card is such a bomb in a ton of matchups, but it isn't good enough in a meta full of bant and natural order decks, which I see alot of. Kitchen finks has amazing synergy with cataclysm. If brought in alongside cataclym against aggro, landstill, and lands, the tables can greatly be turned if we get behind... Board for consideration:

4 enlightened tutor
1 relic of progenitus
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 kitchen finks
2 cataclysm
3 tariff
1 pithing needle

[Vacrix]

Are you liking Etutor at 4? Maybe now that gravehate is needed much less, Ichorid is disappearing and Reanimator got nerfed, you should lower the Etutor count to 3 and run +1 Cataclysm.

[Penguinizer]

Why is everyone so quick to drop all the combo hate? Combo might still show up. There are combo lists that run without Mystical Tutor. I still think that it's worth having Ethersworn Canonist in the board. You can even just run one with ETutor.

I do however think that Cataclysm is worth another look. It could very well be one of the cards to fill the 3 empty slots in my SB left by Silence. I'm still stumped as to good vanilla sideboards. With the 2-1 splits, I've got 13 slots left. 3-4 of course go to crypt/relic, so that's 9-ish. 3 wing Shards is nice, and 3-4 Canonists against the oddball combo. It'll also slow down decks like Enchantress. Should I just have 3 canonists and 3 cataclysms or 4 and 2? I'm also curious as to how well Kitchen Finks works though. I might try it in place of cataclysm. My current meta consists of a large variety non-combo decks.

[Joe_C]

In all honesty, even with canonist, halo, tutor, you still have a TOUGH matchup against combo. In "theory" you will see a decline in combo and reanimator in metas where it is played because the lists aren't optimized without tutor. That isn't a proven truth yet, but if you already have a rough matchup against a deck, and that deck is likely to be less popular, why not just tighten up your other poor/ horrendous matchups with your board? I agree with you vacrix, I can likely get away with just 3 tutors in there in favor of the third cataclysm... If you see alot of zoo, finks is a pretty solid card... Dream board when you cast cataclysm: finks, vial at 3, karakas, mangara in hand 

[Vacrix]

I agree Joe to some extent. I think that DnT had a pretty tough matchup against combo, but this was during the days of Mystical Tutor. Post-board hate was less effective when Mystical Tutor essentially negated your hate, being able to find a bounce spell to ignore your lock piece. Now combo has to cantrip into its bounce/removal for your hatebears or use Burning Wish. Even so, DnT has an unspeakably slow clock.

Anyway, this would be a meta dependent choice. Penguinizer has a combo-light meta so he might as well improve the matchups he is most likely to see. I would definitely be in favor of SB Cannonist if you have enough combo floating around. Whats your meta look like Joe?

[Joe_C]

Normally there is a bunch of bant, a smattering of combo, enchantress x2 or more regularly, goblins, and a landstill player or two... It's pretty hard to prepare for it all... Facing combo is one of those things that happens sometimes, I played several times where there were combo players at the tournament and I avoided playing them all the way to top 8, and there were times when there were 2 combo players in the tournament and I faced them in consecutive rounds.... With the meta at least looking like it can turn towards more zoo and lands I could see cataclysm being a solid choice in the sb, and the best slots to free up are the combo hate slots

[Penguinizer]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
10 [RAV] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [LRW] Goldmeadow Harrier

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FNM] Wing Shards
SB: 2 [EX] Cataclysm
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


Here's my latest list. I decided to take the advice and just cut Runed Halo for Harrier. I also decided to move BFT to the side, it's too situational. Grunt is good enough to 3-of in main though. I might end up cutting the rest of the canonists, but I have no idea what to play instead. It's good vs. Enchantress anyways.

[echo89]

What do you guys think about adding a copy of Kor Haven to the deck? I like the idea of stopping Iona, Sphinx, Terravore and other unpleasant things with it, and it provides even more possibilities for combat tricks! I'm also thinking of adding something like Expedition map to the deck to make some kind of land toolbox..
Also, do you have any thoughts about running Cataclysm mainboard? I'd like to run it but I just can't figure out what to cut :/

[Finn]

Echo, don't use Expedition map. I don't like the land toolbox approach, as I think it reduces the consistency of the deck considerably. But if you wish to try it, I would use Weathered Wayfarer instead.

Kor Haven is on hold indefinitely for me. If I were to include another colorless mana source, it would absolutely be Wasteland #4.

Also, I am pretty sure it will soon be time for me to dust off my Cataclysms. At first, I will not be maindecking it. I guess it depends on how often it gets sided in. For anyone wishing to try it in the main, my advice is to put them in the Oblivion Ring spot.

[LegacyDan]

Am I really seeing this? NExt thing ya know someone will say Isamaru deserves a slot in the deck. I will be playing D+T in GP Columbus, but after the disappointment I had in using Cataclysm before I hardly expect to use it soon.

I myself am waiting to see what the new rumored sword holds for D+T.

[Penguinizer]

I'm also looking forward to the new sword. I'm unsure of how to fit it into the MB, but pro-green (rumor says so) sounds way too good to pass on.

[LegacyDan]

I currently run two Jittes, so making room should be easy if it is indeed a Pro Green sword.

[AggroSteve]

i do not think if we really need a pro green sword, sure it will be strong but, i think mothers are allready enough to chumpblock goyfs and his kind, i cant immagine a pro green sword to be worth it, not i the Jitte slot, not in the SoFaI, nor in the SoLaS slot

sorry but i can't immagine it to be all that good

[Finn]

If there is an aggressively priced protection from green sword I would seriously consider dropping Jitte for it. Pretty much the only time I ever bring in Jitte is when my main weapon is unavailable or when I am facing a Tarmo.

But Dan, Cataclysm really does look good again. The card was never weak, it was just in the wrong environment.

[LegacyDan]

I can always put it into my SB for Workstation, and if it does well I will try it again at the local tourneys.

Steve: The Pro: X is not the only thing that makes the swords good. The boost in attack and Defense makes all the world in half the games and the abilities are just awesome in others. Jitte does what? Kill little dudes? SoFaI does that. Gain life? SoLaS does that. Boost attack and defense? BOTH (and most likely SoBaM) do that all the time.

[(nameless one)]

I cant seem to find it from both here and MTG Sal. How did the lists with Cataclysm look like?

Since Karakas is going to be out of my budget, are there any decent substitutes to Mangara+Karakas lock? Would relying on Flickerwisp and Stonecloakers be enough.

Also, I am interested with that Wayfarer land-toolbox. But I think the lack of Karakas wouldn't make it better. Maybe run do Wayferer tricks ala U/W tempo?

How would your manabase look like with this land-toolbox (sans Karakas)