Been lurking for a while and recently splashed lots of $$$ for a moat. I strongly believe that if it weren't for the limited number of moats, this would be a DTB. Some thoughts I've had when playing the deck. 2/1 thopter sword split. Really? I understand drawing multiples is terrible, however I find it a headache sometimes when I have to tutor both pieces out. This isn't a problem against blue when you have lots of time but against aggro, I like having more more combo pieces. I also realized that most lists I've been seeing on this thread are pretty gas heavy. Ie counterspells, 2/3 Walkers, no daze. I'm pretty worried about the zoo MU as I've been testing that. Preboard is honestly not as easy as most people assume. Pridemage is a problem, but so is lavamancer and burn to the dome. I am not seeing how lists with 2/3 counterspells, 2 Jace, no daze, just 2/1 split of thopter sword is beating zoo. In my testing, by the time I land moat and force pridemage, I'm down to the last quarter of my life (ie 5-7 life), I'm easily within burn range with the above list. Due to this, I'm playing the following list to have a better MU vs zoo yet retain a respectable blue matchup.
4 Enlightened tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Thopter foundry
2 Sword of the meek
1 Jace TMS
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Seat of the synod
1 Academy ruins
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
5 Island
2 Plains
I have a 2 drop number of 13, which is pretty healthy. The snares are excellent against pridemage/goyf/price of progress vs zoo yet good against blue/combo hitting balance, goyf, bob, tutors etc etc. Playing the 3/2 split IMO is a good way to bump up your 2 casting cost cards while speeding up your combo assembly against aggro. Playing this split in testing has yielded good results. Thopther pitches to force, and I seldom draw double sword of the meek. Single Jace for the blue MU and also as an alternate win con. I'm also thinking of switching my splash to green or black for the board. Here's some examples:
Default 9:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Humility
1 Threads of disloyalty
1 Pithing needle
1 Back to basics
As for the remaining 6, red gives 3 REB, 3 Firespouts. Black: 1 Dark tutelage, 2 Perish, 3 Path to exile. Green: 3 Grips (cut seal of cleansing and oblivion ring), 1 Sylvan Library, 4 Tarmogoyfs
Firespout is amazing vs zoo/folk. Rebs are excellent vs anything blue. Dark tutelage warrants testing but would be good in a blue heavy meta. As for green, grips are always good, if this deck gets popular I think the green splash for grips is a must as mirrors will be common. Bringing the goyfs in against zoo/aggro which board out paths/swords also will be very strong. Tutoring out Sylvan library/ dark tutelage seems very strong VS control. Thoughts? Cheers, Ivan.
If you're in red, Blood Moon seems much more punishing than Back to Basics against Lands and decks with greedy mana.
Agreed, Blood moon -> back to basics in red. Thanks. :)
I agree about that the 3/2 split gives you more chances to find a piece soon and then tutor for the second. It's a matter of consistency/rendundancy vs versatility. I am testing the 2/1 split atm, but I started playing the 3/2 split when I first built this deck. I will try both in the future and see what fits best. I see you play 1 Jace in your list, I currently play 3!!
As for the Daze point. I have to say I don't agree. I have always been a "blue" player and I played Daze in most (if not almost all) my lists. And I always board it out against Zoo. What do you want to Daze against them? And then get back in land drops in a match where you need to hit all your lands asap and don't have much time? That tempo loss can just lose you the game.
Anyways I like your post ending where you talk about splash colours for the SB. I am curently running Black for Perish and Engineered Plague. ProBant, Zoo and Goblins are everywhere in my meta. Also New Horizons and Dredge are gaining popularity and thus my choices.
Team Stimato
Originally Posted by Julian23
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
I have played Blood moon in my SB, and it indeed is better than Back to basics as it does not slow you down at all from making Thopters w/ all your lands.
@ivanpei: cut the dazes and put in some 3 drops, you're better off running 2 firespout and 1 crucible in those slots if you want a better aggro matchup. also you want 22 lands not 21. you cannot afford to miss land drops as others have said.
i've run 2 firespout main deck for last 2 weeks, and it has been very good for me. its not as good vs merfolk because thye have counterspells, but its awesome as a precursor to moat vs goblins or just a way to X-for-1 vs zoo.
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
What do you guy think of Leyline of Sanctity from M11 in the sideboard for the Storm/Belcher/Discard matchups in the format?
PS-here's my current list, reconfigured after testing some aggro matchups last night...pretty certain that the Legacy metagame (in general) is trending towards Zoo decks, so this is geared to take advantage of that.
Lands (21):
4x Flooded Strand
4x Snow-Covered Island
2x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Snow-Covered Mountain
1x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
1x Wasteland
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Academy Ruins
Artifact (10):
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment (6):
1x Moat
1x Humility
4x Counterbalance
Planeswalker (1):
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant (21):
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
SB:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Firespout
1x Blood Moon
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Serenity
Uhh, we have 4 force, 3-4 counterspell, 4 counterbalance, pithing needle, ee, and maybe meddling mage on the sb. I think our combo matchup is okay.
could you guys please critique this list
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [LRW] Island (3)
2 [A] Plains (2)
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [BRB] Swamp (4)
// Spells
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
4 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [TE] Humility
1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [7E] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [10E] Tempest of Light
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
Last edited by obituary 95; 07-20-2010 at 07:00 PM.
Underground sea is better than scrubland, and moat is better than humility.
3 Thopter Foundry seems a little overkill.
Cunning Wish seems very weak, and cursed scroll seems iffy. And no jace?
I'm going to assume this a more budget list seeing as theres no moat, usea, or jace. I'd say Jace is pretty important, definitely a good number of wins come from him.
Zoo is tough game 1. Running the extra combo peices will certainly help as getting the combo online pronto is your best line toward victory. I have made many of the same observations/points as you have posted. I'll try to address them.
I have tried splashing multiple colors black, red, green, they all have merits - but at the end of the day the deck really needs to be 2.5 colors. Against decks like NewHorizons and Merfolk to a lesser extent, all you need to do is develop a solid manabase that can't be wastelanded. You simply play basics, kill a couple guys and force through Moat/Humility/Bridge. This is leading me to beleive that Crucible is actually necassary.
I got greedy and splashed black this last weekened and paid the price. Grips for counterbalance decks are really the only card that you need to splash for.
I cut the Dazes awhile ago for all of the reasons stated, I do like snare and counterspell though. Against aggro you just load up on 3-4 Paths, killing their guys while you either get the combo online or lock things up. Humility should be maindeck as well as you side it in agaisnt everything except Storm/Lands. CoP Red should also be in the board.
You desperatly need Pithing Needle main deck. It stops Vial and Pridemage.
Oh yeah, add a 22nd land.
Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.
Ok, thanks for the constructive feedback guys. I'm going to go -4 daze, + 2 counterspell, + 1 Jace + land MD. @ humility main, tried it, played it, died too 1/1s too many times and the deck got 4 drop heavy. @ needle MD, i think this is good, but I don' like too many silver bullets. I 'll try this more mana intensive list and see how it pans out. I've got a zoo list 90% built so I'll have my friend pilot it in testing. In the board, assuming I splash green, Would you rather have paths or goyfs? Against folk path > goyf (islandwalkers), against zoo, goyf > path after they board their paths out. I'm guessing path is less narrow, but against folk, slam moat is GG if you deal with their bounce/commander. I'll put a COP red in the board. What is it for? Zoo? I'm guessing it saves you from a back breaking price of progress/ lavamancer to the face.
It's better against Vial Goblins, although it does have its uses against Zoo.
Honestly rather run CoP: Green. New horizons and Bant hate it
Hey guys,
Here is my current list right now. There is an upcoming tournament at my local store and I was thinking of piloting this deck (There will be a lot of Zoo and tribal aggro)
One of my dilemmas is the dude I usually borrow the planeswalkers will not be there. I cannot really think of alternate win-conditions that is 4CC . What are some good alternatives for the planeswalkers? Would Conundrum Sphinx be a good alternative?ThopterTop!
Lands:
6 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
Other Permanents:
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Humility
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
Any other suggestions? Also, whats a good overall sideboard against an aggro meta? I know Path to Exile should be there but what should I side out?
Thanks in advance!
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I really like Kitchen Finks against aggro. Path and firespout go without saying though.
Against aggro you must play Firespout or Perish/Engineered Plague. Also path is a good call.
It depends on what aggro you are facing what to cut. Lately I have been playing Baneslayer Angel in my SB. Since opponents cut removals and bring in artifact/enchantment hate it's a real beating! I also played a 1 of Divinity of Wonders. Secret tech!
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
I had humility in the SB then found that I was bring it in agaisnt everything except for Storm, Lands, and the mirror. It also stops Pridemage cold. You could run Moat and Bridge main and keep Humility in the board.
Just play basics, board in 3 Paths and they can't beat you without high variance.Honestly rather run CoP: Green. New horizons and Bant hate it
Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.
If you are having problems against Zoo, New Horizons or Bant try the Black splash for Perish!
I actually found that matches against other CB lists are pretty much won by who can land CB + Top first. Obviously you can always trick your opponent and land yours, and it's one of the matches I prefer!
P.S. Check out the article: Zoo vs Counterbalance. It's interesting and talks about Thopters..
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
As tempting as the black splash may be it is incorrect. Your own manabase and play error are the two things that lead to losses with this deck more then anything else.
Persih can be a blow out, but often you can;t afford to take wait for them to drop the 3rd, or 4th green guy. Path, Spell Snare, Humility/Moat, and extra comb peices will beat Zoo while retaining stability across the metagame.
In the mirror, Grips, Cliques, Crucible,Ruins, EE, and Jace are your trumps.
Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.
Since I only run two main colors (UW) and B just as a splash my manabase is really stable.
Perish is an additional removal that complements Humility/Moat. Think about it instead of Path to Exile. Instead of hitting just 1 creature it get's more. It owns Zoo, New Horizons and Bant. Btw you can sword their guys and wait to have a better Perish. Just sword the critters of other colors against Zoo.
Black also offers Extirpate, that is a narrow card, but it owns the mirror.
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote