[Deck] Belcher

[Vacrix]

Its not going to be that great. Missing a land drop isn't that big a deal. As long as they have one more they can cantrip into more lands. Its not worth dropping Swarm. Also, any card that could replace Swarm would be run in addition to Swarm. Swarm is just that good.

[jtwilkins]

Any thoughts on Crack the Earth replacing Xantid Swarm in the sideboard? On the draw it seems pretty good. Must counter or they lose out on their opening land drop or 1 drop and lord help them if they had to mulligan to find an answer to EtW and Belcher. Also cheap enough to combo off around. I've sent several opponents into top deck mode after nuking their initial land drop.

Cracks the Earth sets you back more then them you wasting a mana source and a card slot then possible a permanent you all ready have on board to maybe get them to counter. By the time you board it in they know you are playing Belcher and there is no way they are going to worry about Crack the Earth. They may Daze it just to pick their land up but that is all your going to get. No one will waste a Force of Will on this.

[PanderAlexander]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already



Seems Xantid Swarm is still better though.

[Vacrix]

Yes this card is fucking baller and WoTC will regret ever printing it. It should be a rare. You guys should run it in addition to Xantid Swarm.

[jtwilkins]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already



Seems Xantid Swarm is still better though.

It is really no different then a Guttural Response or a REB in advance. It is going to eat 1 of their counters if they have one to counter Autumn's Veil, Swarm is better for the long hall against blue. Now if this was uncountable it would be bomb.

[JohnBaltimore]

Has anyone seen the Summoner's Pact versions that have been played online (check Decks of the Week) lately.

Thoughts?

[sam.]

Decks of the Week links with Pact Belcher:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/1373742
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/1373746

I personally think that, since the deck is already vulnerable to counterspells, adding Pact would make your games 2 and 3 worse against those decks. The decks in those two events had 3 others which ran countermagic, though I don't know what exactly that represents.

It does smooth out the manabase for sure, since you can get +G or +R (or fixing), but I think it would make recovery very difficult and require card disadvantage on the player's part.

Also I don't like Birds or Street Wraith in Belcher. :P

EDIT:
Well actually now that I think about it, Summoner's Pact does allow you to play through Daze a lot easier as well. For me though, Belcher is enough of a glass cannon, and pushing it more in that direction might do more harm than good.

[JohnBaltimore]

Point taken. I think the Wraith is pointless.

Here is the build I have been considering for an upcoming legacy tournament

Lands:
1 Taiga

Creatures:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Spells:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
3 Pyroblast
3 Empty The Warrens
1 Autumn's Veil

Sideboard:
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Hull Breach/Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm


I want MD Pyroblast for counter-hate, as well as removal against fish. What do you guys think?

[magicmoocow]

Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster.

I was hoping I could get a sideboard discussion for Belcher restarted as I find its current sideboard quite dreadful.

The wishboard as it currently stands, while it is capable to answer many problems, isn't very effective in practice. Most of the answers are to turn one problems by the opponent and tend to use up all of the Belcher players resources. I think that cards that are sideboarded in in games two and three should be defensive and, for the most part, the wishboard cards should be very aggressive.

1. What defensive sideboard cards to put in?

Options are:
Ingot Chewer and Shattering Spree (artifact hate)
Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Xantid Swarm, Guttural Response and now Autumn's Veil (blue hate)

Probably a mix of 8 of those cards should be to side in if necessary. I guess I should note that I haven't seen any cards to side in against enchantments. I believe that Leyline of Sanctity is a very relevant card for legacy sideboards, as it shuts down a large number of legacy cards. I know it only stops the Belcher kill for this deck so maybe it's not as relevant. This plus something like Ghostly Prison can be a problem, however. If that ever happens, maybe something like Simplify would be a 4-of.

If you're running Black (I'm not but a good portion or people are) Duress or Thoughtseize might be a good 4-of. Like Shattering Spree, they're also wishable.

Chances are each of these cards will eat up at least one additional card in your hand to cast.

2. What aggressive sideboard cards to put in?

This is the meat of what I wanted to talk about. Most sideboard wish targets answer very specific situations and will eat up a your entire hand. I mean sure if the opponent gets a bunch of 2/2 dorks on the battlefield turn one (or a teeg/meddling mage naming something relevant) you can go

Lotus Petal -> Rite of Flame -> Rite of Flame -> Burning Wish and Pyroclasm

so congrats, you've just killed their guy. Assuming you were on the draw, you now have 3 cards left in your hand and they probably have 4 and a land in play (assume they used a petal or a spirit guide for the extra mana). Their turn two, they drop disruption #2 and you're running on half a tank. To be fair, the best turn one one the draw solution I have to a teeg would be a Forked Bolt or a Firebolt. Yes you have to burn a lot of resources but one less than Pyroclasm.

90% of the time, the wish card gotten is Empty the Warrens. I do know that some people get Diminishing Returns also, and I think that card is great. Why not Windfall? It's castable off a LED alone and most times is just as good as a Wheel. Also, it lets a Belcher player have a 5 mana/Burning Wish option which doesn't exist in Legacy. NEVERMIND - BANNED

Tendrils of Agony can also be good, but it's hard to get to 10 storm unless you've already wished once. Maybe it's actually a more viable wish target with Windfall NEVERMIND - BANNED (although drawing another wish and probably another LED might be really hard). I'd think of a tendrils as almost always a cleanup spell after an empty with some attacks, but the last damage can't be pushed through. That or a stall. Goblin War Strike is kinda similar.

For a "crap, I need to reset the board" option, has anyone considered Balancing Act? I'm really not sure what situation one would want to use it in, but it certainly evens each players board/hand out!

This is all I have right now. I stopped looking after 4cc spells as I think higher casting costs would be hard to get to.


Thoughts? Comments? Spam? Trolls? :)

-James

P.S. For fun, try Reanimate in your wishboard if you're playing against a lot of reanimator. My Iona!

[Ozymandias]

Um, Windfall is banned.

[magicmoocow]

That's a good point. *sigh*. All that typing and I need to read the B/R list more. My local store just switched over from Vintage to Legacy.

[Ozymandias]

Also, I think my sideboard covers what you're looking for pretty well:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Reverent Silnce
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm (might become autumn's veil)

[magicmoocow]

Yes, that's pretty close to what I am thinking. Here's my proposed one

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Firebolt
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 ?
1 ?

I think Xantid Swarm is better than Autumn's Veil at this moment because green mana is easier to get as the first mana made (land grant/taiga, esg, or a chrome mox imprinting a green spell) and that is probably the same mana you want to use to cast something else (tinder wall or as colorless for some other ritual maybe). If a swarm resolves, you get to draw another card before going off (probably).

What are your thoughts on Chewers versus Sprees? Just because it'll kill a Chalice at one for one mana (whereas Spree'll cost two).

I don't think Infernal Tutor is that great. Can you give me a senario where you go off with it?

I'd really like 1-2 three mana or less spells that make a significant impact on the board in my favor, but can't seem to find them yet. now that I know Windfall is banned, the only one I can think of is something like Infernal Contract.

[Vacrix]

Decks of the Week links with Pact Belcher:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/1373742
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/1373746

I personally think that, since the deck is already vulnerable to counterspells, adding Pact would make your games 2 and 3 worse against those decks. The decks in those two events had 3 others which ran countermagic, though I don't know what exactly that represents.

It does smooth out the manabase for sure, since you can get +G or +R (or fixing), but I think it would make recovery very difficult and require card disadvantage on the player's part.

Also I don't like Birds or Street Wraith in Belcher. :P

EDIT:
Well actually now that I think about it, Summoner's Pact does allow you to play through Daze a lot easier as well. For me though, Belcher is enough of a glass cannon, and pushing it more in that direction might do more harm than good.

Pact doesn't belong in Belcher. Its just people trying to use tech from SI that really doesn't belong there. Belcher is a turn 3 combo deck. It can't use Pact effectively.

[magicmoocow]

Best 3CC card drawer I can find is... Fiery Gambit. Boo!

Well, at least it's on color!

[keys]

Are Pyroblast/REBs worth playing maindeck?

[magicmoocow]

Are Pyroblast/REBs worth playing maindeck?

I'd say it all depends on your meta. Lots of FoW -> Yes. Not many -> No.

If you're saying play those main in addition to sideboard hate -> I don't think that's terribly good because everything is pretty tight. A card hand will, on average, produce 5-7 mana and 1-2 different win conditions. Belcher needs 7 (or 4 + 3), Empty needs 4 (and storm) and Burning Wish needs 6 (2 for the wish and 4 for the wish card).

I've talked to some players that play decks with FoW and most will counter a spell that ramps to 4 mana (some counter Manamorphose). I'd also counter a wish myself, but that's me)

Anyway, 4 mana will usually cost 3-4 cards leaving you with 3-5. Your win condition is another card in hand (leaving 2-4). and if it's a blast, there's going to need to be a spare mana or a spirit guide to cast it (2 more cards, leaving 0-1 leftover). Tight!

If you have an additional cards to side in, usually you're going to cut mana (or fixing if that isn't what you cut to have the blasts main). And that's probably going to clog up your hand and not leave you with enough mana.

Another possibility would be to presideboard (blasts in the main and something like manamorphoses in the board) which might work. Side out if you're not playing against blue.

[magicmoocow]

Has anyone considered Skirk Prospector in this deck? I am aware that he can be a dead card in some draws, but can make a any topdecked win condition an immediate reality off a first turn warrens.

He can:
-Add storm at no mana cost (but a card cost)
-"Float" a red mana across turns
-Turn stalled goblin tokens into mana for a topdecked belcher

I'm not a super-big fan of the warrens kill and I've been finding a lot of the decks are fairly resilient against a warrens for a bunch of guys.

[Deirex]

Pact doesn't belong in Belcher. Its just people trying to use tech from SI that really doesn't belong there. Belcher is a turn 3 combo deck. It can't use Pact effectively.

I agree that pact does not belong in the deck but Belcher being a turn 3 deck? I'm assuming you take ETW tokens into account when you're saying that.
If I can't at least go off into whatever really on the first or 2nd turn I'd mulligan.

[Vacrix]

Sure but the point is that the deck doesn't really win until turn 3 most of the time. Only 4 out of your 11 win conditions allow you to win the turn its played, which means Pact is useless most of the time, unless you want to fit it into Spoils Belcher.. It would actually work in Spoils Belcher. It would give you plenty more access to those Wild Cantor's, allowing you to run 8 virtual copies, which means you don't need to waste a slot on Bayou, making Belcher worse.