[Deck] Solidarity

[largebrandon]

I hate this card exactly for this reason. 2U Draw a card is fucking horrible. Peer through the Depths does the same thing while setting up only you are sure to grab something useful off the top, choosing from 5 instead of 1. Post-going off, you are already winning, who cares... I've never fizzed because my Peer wasn't a FoI and have enjoyed having that extra mana that I didn't use to cast FoI to cast an additional Opt or Brainstorm. Having +4 Impulse to interact with BF is disgustingly good. Don't bother with it. Its outdated tech.

Yes, FoI might initially say "2U, draw a card" but it also says "1u, search your library for any card in your deck and put it in your hand. Then, stack your deck anyway that you see fit. Also, remove all blue cards from your graveyard so they can be wished for."

If drawing a card for 2U is the drawback for playing its second ability, then I'm more than happy playing that than Peer.

[lebarion]

Yes, FoI might initially say "2U, draw a card" but it also says "1u, search your library for any card in your deck and put it in your hand. Then, stack your deck anyway that you see fit. Also, remove all blue cards from your graveyard so they can be wished for."

Actually, you can't wish for cards from the exile. The last trick you mentioned doesn't work.
I'm not quite sure about the justification, but I believe that's because the exile is a zone from the game, and Cunning Wish lets you search for a card from outside the game.

[Vacrix]

Yes, FoI might initially say "2U, draw a card" but it also says "1u, search your library for any card in your deck and put it in your hand. Then, stack your deck anyway that you see fit. Also, remove all blue cards from your graveyard so they can be wished for."

If drawing a card for 2U is the drawback for playing its second ability, then I'm more than happy playing that than Peer.

Again, its great when you are already winning, but PtD does the same thing only it also lets you set up. Woot you can't look through your entire deck for a card and stack your deck... With a deck full of cantrips, Meditates and Cunning Wish's, I've not once needed FoI to get the win instead of PtD. You cantrip or Meditate into what you need. Why does the deck NEED this card?

The fact is it doesn't need this card. Solidarity needs ways to set-up quickly, not ensure your win after you are already going off. The format is simply too fast to approach this deck in any other way.

However.... if the deck could play Frantic Search again, I'd most certainly play one or even 2 copies. Otherwise, its McJank when you could be setting up with PtD. The deck has no problems beating control. Hell, its built to beat control. What it can't beat these days is aggro. In the metagame of today, you need cards that help you set up. PtD is even better post-board if you are trying to dig for Moment's Peace against aggro. FoI was cool and all when the format was slow, but trying to pretend like its still a good card is just stubborn if you ask me.

[Dark Ritual]

Another strike against flash of insight is that it doesn't allow you to stack your deck. Read the card and it clearly states put the rest on the bottom of your library meaning in the order you saw the top X cards. Peer through depths is infinitely better IMO, digging 5 cards AND you can put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order not that that's relevant a lot of the time. FoI is outdated tech and cunning wish doesn't work with exiled cards ever since the M10 rules change all the wishes got neutered, not being able to wish for something in the exiled zone and only being able to wish from the SB. Also PtD can be cast on turn 2 to gain a set up card while FoI on turn 2 is impossible without wasting a high tide to cast it for X=2. That is also a problem. How mana intensive the card is if you hardcast it with X equal to mana you spend rather than X being equal to the number of cards you exiled. And saying you want to see it against control is like Vacrix said, essentially win more because solidarity already rolls over control decks since it can manipulate the stack so well in your favor and against landstill we have so much time. Only troublesome control MUs for us are the ones where they pack in a countertop package like thopter control or postboard landstill lists sometimes board in a countertop package but this is less common.

If frantic search were unbanned solidarity would be tier 1 again there is no doubt in my mind that a deck packing 4x frantic search, 3x turnabout with one in the SB, and 4x reset would dominate the format because solidarity could realistically go off on turn 3 over 50% of the time with that kind of mana available and 2 turns of set up before hand.

[i-never-smile]

In my recent testing I have tried 0, 1, and 2 Flash of Insight in the deck. With each number of FoI, I have also been trying 0, 1, 2, or 3 Peer Through Depths. I haven't played the deck for well over a year, and my playskill/deck building ability has risen considerably in that time, so I've tried to look at things objectively with a blank slate. The way I see it, PtD is very good in this deck, but FoI is absolutely necessary because it fulfills an important role. PtD will dig you pretty deep towards more business, but it's still a 1-for-1 that costs you mana. FoI costs a little more to set up, but it produces card advantage (when drawn) and it's almost impossible to win when you've flashbacked a FoI for 10+ cards. I have had so much trouble in match-ups where I need to produce some card advantage in order to out-resource my opponent and win the game, and when I put FoIs into the deck that problem wasn't as big a deal. Even when I was running an extra draw spell (Meditate #4/FoF/3 Dreams) in the maindeck, I was still having trouble producing card advantage. FoI is going to do about the same job that PtD does when you're already comboing off, and it can be a 2-for-1, or a way to turn Brain Freeze into more gas. While the Cunning Wish trick doesn't work anymore with FoI, it's still pretty insane.

I think I'm going to stick with Van Phanel's mono-blue, 2x Cryptic maindeck from a couple of years ago, with a possible change to the Opt/Peek configuration and to the number of Fetchlands. Most of the tuning I'm going to do will have to do with sideboarding, which seems to be one of the harder aspects of the deck for me. I'm reading everything I can to learn about sideboarding, but I think I'll just have to get more experience under my belt to figure out how I feel about cards like Spell Snare and Twincast and Repeal in this metagame.

Another strike against flash of insight is that it doesn't allow you to stack your deck. Read the card and it clearly states put the rest on the bottom of your library meaning in the order you saw the top X cards.

Oh, really? And who is going to stop you from rearranging cards from the top of your library? If you look at 15 cards, they're not specifically told to be randomized, and they're not specifically told to keep in order, it's basically assumed you can rearrange them. This is why any time you're told to search your library, it is specifically stated on the card that you are supposed to shuffle. Otherwise, it is impossible to prove the library is out of order. Even if your opponent sees you blatantly rearranging cards, how does he know that you're not potentially moving them back into order?

People have been stacking their libraries with the flashback mode of FoI for years, in tournaments, in front of judges, at high tables. If it didn't stack a large portion of the library, we would have found out by now.

[Nessaja]

Oh, really? And who is going to stop you from rearranging cards from the top of your library? If you look at 15 cards, they're not specifically told to be randomized, and they're not specifically told to keep in order, it's basically assumed you can rearrange them. This is why any time you're told to search your library, it is specifically stated on the card that you are supposed to shuffle. Otherwise, it is impossible to prove the library is out of order.

There are several cards in magic that state "In any order" when it's allowed to rearrange you library (Scry mechanic is the most glaring one). What is the reason you believe that you're allowed to do it when it isn't stated on the card?

[ScatmanX]

There are several cards in magic that state "In any order" when it's allowed to rearrange you library (Scry mechanic is the most glaring one). What is the reason you believe that you're allowed to do it when it isn't stated on the card?

Years of people doing it in tournys around the world?

[Nonex]

Hope this clears something.

401.4. If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library’s owner doesn’t reveal the order in which the cards go into his or her library.

[ummon]

Hope this clears something.

Thanks. In fact, the scry that people were pointing to is actually evidence that you can put them back in any order. Notice that scry says you can put the cards on top of your library in any order but doesn't mention the order of the cards on the bottom.

Still think that FoI is not a good card though...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The only reason to play Peer Through Depths is because you're not using Cunning Wish to it's maximum potential. Cunning Wish should already be a tutor; just stick the 4th Tide, Reset, and Meditate in the board. Flash of Insight helps you dig for land, which is one of the most important aspects of the setup. It's also your best form of card advantage against disruption strategies that doesn't require losing a turn, and helps ensure you don't fizzle late-stage in the combo. It also helps make TfK amazing, and it's already pretty amazing.

[largebrandon]

Actually, you can't wish for cards from the exile. The last trick you mentioned doesn't work.
I'm not quite sure about the justification, but I believe that's because the exile is a zone from the game, and Cunning Wish lets you search for a card from outside the game.

You're right on that. My mistake. I just came back form magic after a few years and am still learning the new rules.

[Nonex]

The only reason to play Peer Through Depths is because you're not using Cunning Wish to it's maximum potential. Cunning Wish should already be a tutor; just stick the 4th Tide, Reset, and Meditate in the board. Flash of Insight helps you dig for land, which is one of the most important aspects of the setup. It's also your best form of card advantage against disruption strategies that doesn't require losing a turn, and helps ensure you don't fizzle late-stage in the combo. It also helps make TfK amazing, and it's already pretty amazing.

Just a minor question. What makes Thirst for Knowledge stand out above Three Wishes?

If something like this has been discussed recently in this thread, I couldn't find it.

[Nonex]

...

[Vacrix]

In my recent testing I have tried 0, 1, and 2 Flash of Insight in the deck. With each number of FoI, I have also been trying 0, 1, 2, or 3 Peer Through Depths. I haven't played the deck for well over a year, and my playskill/deck building ability has risen considerably in that time, so I've tried to look at things objectively with a blank slate. The way I see it, PtD is very good in this deck, but FoI is absolutely necessary because it fulfills an important role. PtD will dig you pretty deep towards more business, but it's still a 1-for-1 that costs you mana. FoI costs a little more to set up, but it produces card advantage (when drawn) and it's almost impossible to win when you've flashbacked a FoI for 10+ cards. I have had so much trouble in match-ups where I need to produce some card advantage in order to out-resource my opponent and win the game, and when I put FoIs into the deck that problem wasn't as big a deal. Even when I was running an extra draw spell (Meditate #4/FoF/3 Dreams) in the maindeck, I was still having trouble producing card advantage. FoI is going to do about the same job that PtD does when you're already comboing off, and it can be a 2-for-1, or a way to turn Brain Freeze into more gas. While the Cunning Wish trick doesn't work anymore with FoI, it's still pretty insane.

I think I'm going to stick with Van Phanel's mono-blue, 2x Cryptic maindeck from a couple of years ago, with a possible change to the Opt/Peek configuration and to the number of Fetchlands. Most of the tuning I'm going to do will have to do with sideboarding, which seems to be one of the harder aspects of the deck for me. I'm reading everything I can to learn about sideboarding, but I think I'll just have to get more experience under my belt to figure out how I feel about cards like Spell Snare and Twincast and Repeal in this metagame.

Its simply a crutch. I've never needed FoI. Have fun losing to aggro with your maindeck Cryptic Commands.

[i-never-smile]

You know, I actually think Cryptic is good against aggro, because it's basically a Time Walk. I like that against Goblins, I can Cryptic their team down, draw a card, make my 5th land drop, and then go off with extra mana on the table. It honestly makes things much easier. And against aggro decks with Islands and countermagic, Cryptic is reasonable in counter-wars. Especially when both players start being able to produce enough mana with their Islands to hardcast Force of Will, Cryptic becomes valuable. Not only that, but it can be card advantage.

I'm just going to have to go with what has been testing well for me, I guess. Maybe I'm dumb for playing 2 FoI and 2 Cryptics in the main, but it sure seems to be solving all sorts of problems I was having without either.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Just a minor question. What makes Thirst for Knowledge stand out above Three Wishes?

If something like this has been discussed recently in this thread, I couldn't find it.

Three Wishes is great going off, but miserable setting up. TfK is great setting up, and since you tend to draw lands/FoIs, it's very rare that the discard two line actually stops you from going off. The times when TfK is good and TW isn't (when you're setting up) simply outnumber the times when the roles are reversed (pretty much at the start of your combo with a weak hand).

[Silent Requiem]

I've played around with FoI/PtD for over a year, and I keep coming back to FoI. It's just broken.

That said, PtD is great too. My current build adds two land and drops four Opt for four PtD. It needs more testing, but so far I like it.

I also love Cryptic. Yes, it is dead for the first three turns, but it is absolutely broken after that. Cryptic has won me a lot of games.

What a lot of the anti FoI, anti Cryptic crowd forget is that although these cards are unnecessary when things are going well, they can turn things around when things are have gone horribly, horribly wrong. For example, I was playing a tournament game against Merfolk. He shut down my attempt to go off with Curse Catcher (flashed in), two FoW and a Mindbreak trap. I end the turn with just a High Tide in hand. Next turn he has lethal.

I top deck a Reset. With my FoI in the gy, I go on to win. No other card could have won me that game. It was not about play errors, it was about my opponent having a godly hand. FoI got me there. I have similar stories about Cryptic Command.

-Silent Requiem

[Olesch]

Well I am still curious on how Solidarity will handle decks with Emrakul.

There are alot of decks appearing with four of Emrakuls and Progenitus.

I don't think that it is doable to recast a BF (Remand or a new one) for each Emrakul. In this case do you change plan and bulk up with alot of mana to respond with a deadly stroke? Is that doable? It might result in that you need to force your opponent to draw 20+ cards and then you need 23+ mana. I don't really like to include stifle or trickbind either.

What about the green splash like Van Phanel mentioned? Hunting Pack, is that a good way/option? I am trying to look up what options we got and what is the most optimal.

In the Progenitus case, since it is an replacement effect, there is no option to respond to it and you are just able to wait untill the Progenitus is the only card(s) left in the library and then stroke for them I guess?

[ummon]

Well I am still curious on how Solidarity will handle decks with Emrakul.

There are alot of decks appearing with four of Emrakuls and Progenitus.

I don't think that it is doable to recast a BF (Remand or a new one) for each Emrakul. In this case do you change plan and bulk up with alot of mana to respond with a deadly stroke? Is that doable? It might result in that you need to force your opponent to draw 20+ cards and then you need 23+ mana. I don't really like to include stifle or trickbind either.

What about the green splash like Van Phanel mentioned? Hunting Pack, is that a good way/option? I am trying to look up what options we got and what is the most optimal.

In the Progenitus case, since it is an replacement effect, there is no option to respond to it and you are just able to wait untill the Progenitus is the only card(s) left in the library and then stroke for them I guess?

I would think that Stroke of Genius is more than doable in Solidarity. Resolve a few high tides and a several turnabouts/resets and you have enough mana for a lethal stroke on turn 4 or 5. Another option is to wish for Ravenous Trap after your Brain Freeze.

[i-never-smile]

Wish-->Ravenous Trap is the simplest way to do it. You probably need 2-3 freezes/remands going to hit most of the emrakuls at once, then you can go for a stroke with another wish. This means comboing off hard, but it should be viable against a deck with 3-4 Emrakuls in the library...this means they haven't put one on the table yet.